Play to your weaknesses...Ross Lyon take a bow.

[Bollox]

If the doggies lost a cpl of games right now Ross Lyon would drop Adam Cooney. Brent Stanton would have been delisted or traded by now and Daniel Kerr would be lucky to make his team.

There are many myths about many footballers...the "unnaccountable" myth about many footballers includes Dal Santo along with many others. Certain footballers are played for their attack, others for clearance work, others for disposal, others for defence and tackling pressure. Some coaches like a good mix whilst others simply prioritise certain aspects depending upon recent win/loss record.

Lyon dropped Dal Santo highlighting a lack of work rate off the ball and lack of tackling. This was in a game where he was judged upon performance in roles totally foreign to him....tagging and back pocket. Even the best taggers in the game struggle with Goodes and i doubt ANY AFL midfielder should be expected to suddenly become a good back pocket when thrown down for one half of footy when 5 goals down. Beyond my comprehension in terms of what u could even ask for from a footballer.

Attacking weapons now often get judged not on their attack but on their defence...depending on the recent win/loss record. Similarly if an attacking footballer is on a winning team his defence isnt an issue....yet others are ASSUMED to be good tacklers when in fact they arnt...but the team is winning so it doesnt matter.

Adam Cooney...(currently the team is winning)
2004...1.6
2005...2.5
2006....2.5
2007....3.6
2008....2.6

Noone cares nor even questions his accountability

Daniel Kerr (on a winning team 05-07)

2004...3.2 tackles/game
2005...2.7 (GF)
2006...3.2 (GF)
2007...3.6 (top 4)
2008...2.3

Generally thought of as accountable but tackles less than Dal Santo in reality.

Nick Dal Santo (currently on a losing team)

2004...3.3 tackles/game
2005...3.2
2006...4.2
2007...3.7
2008...2.9

Often thought of as unaccountable but his record is quite good.

Brent Stanton (on a losing team)

2004...1.3 tackles/game
2005...2.0
2006...1.9
2007...1.4
2008...3.3

Awful tackling record but not dropped in 06/07 for lack of defensive game.

Apparantly Dal Santo got tagged heavily in the VFL game and laid 7 tackles...still close to BOG. He's laid 7 tackles in a game at AFL level already this yr and was averaging about 3 tackles per game..average for quality attacking midfielders.

Lyon learns NOTHING from the idiotic risk he took dropping the bloke after screwing with him in Sydney.

Saints had nearly a record low inside 50 count v Freo...guess why.

Saints quality of disposal went down...guess why.

Saints looked even less likely to kick a score....guess why.

Lyon is a fool if he thinks that simply trying to turn reasonably accountable attacking players into higher than average tackling machines is going to help him.

You do NOT run silly risks with members and fans at a delicate time of yr simply because you have a bee in your bonnet. Lyon is a fool.

 

[dan warna]

concur

when we played Hawthorn first up in 07, he played to hawthorns strengths not ours.

he killed fraser gehrigs career, because he wanted FG to play like riewoldt and barry hall.

now I look at how Leigh Matthews used Lynch, and basically he got an enormous amount out of Lynch, by parking him in the goal square.

result FG finished.

Milne is the highest scoring small forward in the competition behind jeff Farmer, he averages 2 goals a game and 2 shot assists a game for several years, 150 games and 300 goals or there abouts.

so about 2:1 comes directly from milne and 1.5:1 comes from his assists.

he wants milne up the ground.

basically he has neutered one of the best big forwards in the competition and gimped one of the best small forwards in the competition.

Basically he is forcing st kilda in a mould, killing the creativity it once had, players like xavier clarke, NDS, milne, FG, are poorer for the effort.

when we win, its basically 5 or 6 of our best players playing football, and the rest playing lyonball.

guys like birss and clint jones are rewarded for kicking backwards and slowing the opposition rather than attacking football.

Still if lyon can force this style of play on st kilda and we win a premiership in the next 2 or 3 seasons, he'll be hailed as a genius.

Its also depressing reading SOME of the st kilda fans tearing into NDS calling him soft and the like, the NDS i've seen puts on shepherds, blocks for ball and hayes, and cops a polaxing regularly for his hard work in the middle.

I can't see it happening.

 

[DaVe86]

Milne and Dal Santo were scapegoats. Milne is the only one kicking goals...Dal Santo is an extremely attacking player.


The fact they were dropped only illustrates the flaws in Lyons plan.


He has fantastic attacking players who he is forcing to play this overly defensive accountable game. They were best when they had freedom and played with flare.


Dal Santo was dropped for not manning up Moore up forward. Can anyone tell me why Nick Dal Santo was starting at Full Back on a first year player???? If he is not working in the centre, the smart thing would be to push him forward and use his skills on a flank. Why on earth would you waste him across half back against a no-namer. Dal is not suited to the backline.


Ever since Lyon came to the team, Dal Santo plays the majority of his footy across half back. What a waste of extreme talent. Most players start their careers across half back then move into the centre (eg Hodge, Adcock)

Not many start in the centre then get moved to half back. You dont use dangerous players like Dal Santo in the backline. He is not accountable enough. Why should he be...opponents should be forced to worry about him, he is so dangerous.



And as for Milne...yes he mucks up...but atleast he mucks up trying to create a goal. Its better than watching Goddard, Raph Clarke, Blake and co make blatent mistakes in the backline under little pressure. Milne is there to create goals...and sometimes he tries to hard...but while he is their leading goal kicker and they have no one better to replace...they need him in the side.


Lyon got lucky against the Dockers. A better side wouldve killed them on Friday night in what was one of the more awful games of footy to watch. The only players who seemed fired up at all was Lenny Hayes and Riewodlt, whom you can expect that sort of committment from anyway. The others were lousy.

 

[Bollox]

The other major long term byproduct u get is a gradual degrading of the list by rewarding lesser skilled players...thereby reducing the teams chances against the better clubs. You now lack those unpredictable matchwinners that get u prem points. You fart arse about with their skills and roles till they havent got a clue what is expected of them. You may still beat the bottom 8 clubs and kid yourself you have somehow improved something...but u in effect go backwards and kill the list.

Take that Clint Jones guy...in Lyon's mind he'll keep getting a game as long as his tackling and efforts are great...or shows "intensity".

Unfortunately though you are simply rewarding low skills but high intensity. A recipe for long term spoonship.

Next thing u know is that a list that should be challenging NOW is artifically reduced in quality...the window slams shut through being unable to compete against more talented sides and then Lyon will tell the world they suddenly need to rebuild.

 

[Z_K]

I agree with the premise, but when have tackles been a good indicator of a blokes accountability?

 

[The Punter]

Look at Nick Dal Santo and Gary Ablett. I've seen how hard Ablett works without the ball to get the ball.

Dal Santo is probably more talented, a better kick, and has more agility than Ablett. To be fair, Ablett is stronger, especially through the lower body.

Dal Santo is wasted deep forward because he is much more damaging with the ball between him and the goals, rather than having Dal Santo with his back to the goals. Compare him to Luke Ball, who would be more adept at playing half-forward than half-back. Dal Santo can read the play better than most, which is why I would have him starting loose across half-back roaming free.

I didn't agree with the Milne dropping, as I agree with almost everything Dave86 said about him. Unfortunately, he isn't as confident in his ability as he was a few years ago, and the trend with small forwards seems to be to the Aaron Davey type, able to kick the odd goal but create many more through pressure. Coincidentally, most of these guys seem to be Aboriginal.

 

[Ragnarok14]

I think Lyon is trying to take a total football approach (similar to sydney), if you can get everyones defending/attacking skills to similar levels you then become a very flexible team able to drag the opposition out of their prefered style and play on their weaknesses while not really having any of your own. Whether this will work, who knows.

As for the dropping of santo and milne, I doubt it was so much on performance as the need to target well known/liked players who the rest of the team believed were 'fantastic' and looked upto. By dropping them Lyon instantly put down his mark and essentially said do as I say or get dropped, Hiddink did the same with every team he has coached (of course he knows his shit, we are yet to see if Lyon knows his).

I think Saints fans need to get over the whole 'but we played such great footy! we have such a talented list!' crap and accept that these things wont win you squat and whether you like it or not, footy is business based around winning.

 

[dan warna]

I reckon if milne was aboriginal, Shallow folks would be marvelling at his unpredictability and his freakish goal skills.

I reckon on his results and forum, he is the second most producting small forward in the competition behind Farmer across his career.

I see and read saints fans wishing we had a lovett or a aaron davey, in all honesty, whether you like him or not, milne is more producting than these guys at the moment.

Williams at hawthorn would be the other small forward in the top 3 for goals and result of goals from actions along with milne and farmer.

As for NDS,

 

[Bollox]

I agree with the premise, but when have tackles been a good indicator of a blokes accountability?

The tackling was highlighted by Lyon....and i read some article this morning about how their "really pleased" with his 7 tackles in the VFL. They arnt making a secret of their belief he wasnt chase/tackling enough off the ball.

Why would u judge a blokes performance based on one half in foreign roles ? He ended up giving away loads of free kicks which is a sign he obviously isnt used to the roles the coach threw on him.

Now all he has learnt is that his team is worse off without those two blokes..Milne and Dal Santo. He also knows they obviously deserve their place in the team thru their one off BOG performances at the next level down. Pointless bullshit that risked their season.

This example setting rubbish is a well trodden wits end approach and is actually showing WEAKNESS rather than what he'd like to display. Means Lyon has run out of idea's and is simply going into punishment mode.

 

[Bollox]

I think Lyon is trying to take a total football approach (similar to sydney), if you can get everyones defending/attacking skills to similar levels you then become a very flexible team able to drag the opposition out of their prefered style and play on their weaknesses while not really having any of your own. Whether this will work, who knows.

As for the dropping of santo and milne, I doubt it was so much on performance as the need to target well known/liked players who the rest of the team believed were 'fantastic' and looked upto. By dropping them Lyon instantly put down his mark and essentially said do as I say or get dropped, Hiddink did the same with every team he has coached (of course he knows his shit, we are yet to see if Lyon knows his).

I think Saints fans need to get over the whole 'but we played such great footy! we have such a talented list!' crap and accept that these things wont win you squat and whether you like it or not, footy is business based around winning.

Total opposite.

With our mob the coaching was to lesser skilled midfielders that werent attacking weapons through the middle. Kirk, Bolton, Fosdike, Ablett etc. They had no choice with our list but to improve defensive pressure to make up for a lack of talent. It worked a treat.

Its like dropping Adam Goodes after throwing him in at FB coz he wasnt chase/tackling enough. WhyTF would u bother ?...what do u learn ? So if one of your more highly skilled players cant do a stopping role are u robbing peter to pay paul ?

In their case it is REDUCING skill level and scoreboard pressure to improve defensive pressure.

We driopped Nick Davis for a variety of reasons up fwd. Skilled player but he simply wasnt fit...still isnt fit enough to play at top level.

Davis' job was simply to kick goals...he wasnt doing that either. Milne WAS.

Its totally different starting with a bunch of average players and improving them to starting with a bunch of good players and ruining them.

 

[Z_K]

My question remains. The only statistical measure of accountability is going back through games and working out a players opponent in that game and looking at his posessions. Tackle counts have nothing to do with it.

Dal Santo was probably dropped because he wasn't offering enough with the footy to off-set his lazy efforts defensively and Lyon thought making a player of his ability plough through the mud in the VFL for a week would send a message. I don't watch St Kilda much, like anyone with functioning brain, so I could be wrong.

 

[Bollox]

My question remains. The only statistical measure of accountability is going back through games and working out a players opponent in that game and looking at his posessions. Tackle counts have nothing to do with it.

Dal Santo was probably dropped because he wasn't offering enough with the footy to off-set his lazy efforts defensively and Lyon thought making a player of his ability plough through the mud in the VFL for a week would send a message. I don't watch St Kilda much, like anyone with functioning brain, so I could be wrong.

Thats the easy route to take...its an assumption because u dont actually know yourself if he has been "lazy" or not.

If Geelong werent winning Steve Johnson would look lazy.

 

[Sir Robert]

My question remains. The only statistical measure of accountability is going back through games and working out a players opponent in that game and looking at his posessions. Tackle counts have nothing to do with it.

Dal Santo was probably dropped because he wasn't offering enough with the footy to off-set his lazy efforts defensively and Lyon thought making a player of his ability plough through the mud in the VFL for a week would send a message. I don't watch St Kilda much, like anyone with functioning brain, so I could be wrong.

I'd say Lyon has been watching the same St Kilda games I have.

And the fact is Dal Santo jogs after his opponent and continually watches him kick unopposed inside 50's. Week in week out. I don't think you will see a game thi syear where he did not do that at least once.

I think effort is what he is trying to instill, not tackles. Robet Harvey gets wheeled out in a chair each week before the game and he then busts his butt to get the ball and busts his butt off the ball. 4 heart attacks later and a dialysis break and he's had an awesome game or done a hammy trying. This is what Dal Santo needs to do!

 

[PottSie2]

The thing is, the more Lyon tries to stangle his players into this dour gameplan, the more likely they will be to leave, especially if the 'Premiership Window' is a closing!

Riewoldt to the GC if this keeps up.

 

[kookadog]

Ross Lyon knows more about Sydney than he does about his own side. He's trying to turn the Saints into a team that plays like Sydney. He's drafted 2 from there already.

No saints supporters I know have much faith in him and realise they are on the way down, which is sad because they have some good players. Lyon is stifling them rather than adding something.

Eade is a good coach because he came in and didn't completely screw with the running flair of the dogs, but has instilled more defensive pressure and worked out a gameplan that complements the players. Lyon has screwed completely with a side that was good enough to play in september, if they win any games it's not because of him.

 

[dan warna]

yep

when we beat you last we just bludgeoned you down on our raw talent, your turn overs and mistakes led to St Kilda winning.

meanwhile st kilda hasn't progressed, and the dogs don't make as many mistakes.

st kilda burst out of the blocks against you, with raw talent, and the ross lyon eased them back into the defencive pattern that robbed us of confidence and offence.

tbh the doggies must have feared st kilda for about 1/4 and then when the realised we were defending our first quarter lead laughed all the way to the bank.

 

[Coons17]

Lol to the OP comparing Dal Santo to Cooney.

What a joke!

 

[Bollox]

Lol to the OP comparing Dal Santo to Cooney.

What a joke!

Where's the joke ?

Judging by your name its hard to imagine u could be unbiased about it ...but for your info i wouldnt be the only one that would knock back Dal Santo for Cooney. Age being about the only reason. Cooney's not showing anything Dal Santo already has before. Cooney's simply been in reasonable form so far tis all.

I chose those players as a cross section of both match winners, ladder positions and talent...simply to show tackling. Tackling being one of the big things Lyon has been referring to.

This is about attacking mids...guys with talent. Cooney is being played correctly IMO and well coached. He's doing the job he was brought up doing and his coach doesnt mind the fact his defensive game is pretty damn lousy.

Sponsoring Cooney's attacking talent is one reason your mob is doing so well.

Stifling Dal Santo's attacking talent is one reason their mob is doing so poorly.

Thats MY opinion and it may be wrong...... but i simply hate seeing class players trying to be turned into something they arnt.

Some coaches are making decisions based on ladder position and perceived pressure to perform. Unfortunately when 5-7 and just one more loss finishes u off its NOT the time to drop the guys that have actually been amongst your better players. Risking a season by making a point isnt heroic...its stupid.

 

[dan warna]

Lol to the OP comparing Dal Santo to Cooney.

What a joke!

dal santo came 3rd in the brownlow as a 21 year old, cooney is 1 1/2 years younger than Dal Santo.

2006 he got 10 votes again, 2007 despite st kilda having a relatively crappy year NDS scored 16 brownlow votes.

NDS is still only 24 years old (25 in feb 09)
Cooney is 22, turning 23 in sep 08.

nothing wrong with the comparison.

NDS used correctly is a damaging player.

Footscray are on the up playing to their strengths, wheras st kilda is stagnating atm.

doesn't detract from the fact NDS is a quality player, even if our side is grossly underperforming.

 

[lindsay_bulldogs]

Lol to the OP comparing Dal Santo to Cooney.

What a joke!

I agree with you on this one.

Dal Santo averages what 22 possessions and is unaccountable. He plays in the midfield. Most flankers get better stats than him.

 

[Coons17]

Where's the joke ?

Judging by your name its hard to imagine u could be unbiased about it ...but for your info i wouldnt be the only one that would knock back Dal Santo for Cooney. Age being about the only reason. Cooney's not showing anything Dal Santo already has before. Cooney's simply been in reasonable form so far tis all.

I chose those players as a cross section of both match winners, ladder positions and talent...simply to show tackling. Tackling being one of the big things Lyon has been referring to.

This is about attacking mids...guys with talent. Cooney is being played correctly IMO and well coached. He's doing the job he was brought up doing and his coach doesnt mind the fact his defensive game is pretty damn lousy.

Sponsoring Cooney's attacking talent is one reason your mob is doing so well.

Stifling Dal Santo's attacking talent is one reason their mob is doing so poorly.

Thats MY opinion and it may be wrong...... but i simply hate seeing class players trying to be turned into something they arnt.

Some coaches are making decisions based on ladder position and perceived pressure to perform. Unfortunately when 5-7 and just one more loss finishes u off its NOT the time to drop the guys that have actually been amongst your better players. Risking a season by making a point isn't heroic...its stupid.

You fool. If you honestly would not swap NDS for Cooney then you should give me some of the stuff your taking. Cooney is a far better player than NDS , he kicks more goals and is as good if not better than NDS by foot. His pace is another dimension that puts him ahead of NDS, but hey your entitled to your own opinion.

But your opinion is wrong!

 

[immortalmike]

Where's the joke ?

Judging by your name its hard to imagine u could be unbiased about it ...but for your info i wouldnt be the only one that would knock back Dal Santo for Cooney. Age being about the only reason. Cooney's not showing anything Dal Santo already has before. Cooney's simply been in reasonable form so far tis all.

I chose those players as a cross section of both match winners, ladder positions and talent...simply to show tackling. Tackling being one of the big things Lyon has been referring to.

This is about attacking mids...guys with talent. Cooney is being played correctly IMO and well coached. He's doing the job he was brought up doing and his coach doesnt mind the fact his defensive game is pretty damn lousy.

So what you are saying is you haven't seen Cooney play this year and just made up your mind on the way he plays judging by previous form where he has been both unfit and had no preseason.

About Dal Santo I think it stems from the saints midfield being down on confidence thus not covering his man when he runs forward to create attacking opportunities. Put Dal Santo in the Cats' midfield and they will cover the times when he sees fit to attack and create opportunities.

 

[The 747]

Ross Lyon knows more about Sydney than he does about his own side. He's trying to turn the Saints into a team that plays like Sydney. He's drafted 2 from there already.

No saints supporters I know have much faith in him and realise they are on the way down, which is sad because they have some good players. Lyon is stifling them rather than adding something.

Eade is a good coach because he came in and didn't completely screw with the running flair of the dogs, but has instilled more defensive pressure and worked out a gameplan that complements the players. Lyon has screwed completely with a side that was good enough to play in september, if they win any games it's not because of him.

To me this is where Lyon is going wrong. Unless you have a Terry Tan contract forever and can totally turn over the list, the coach should be trying to have the side play a style of football that suits the strengths and weaknesses of the list he has. Not the list he wants to have, but the list he actually has.
Each group of players is not the same, they are better at some things and poor at others. The better teams are the ones who play a style of football that suits them - and the players also enjoy it and play better as a result.

 

[Bollox]

You fool. If you honestly would not swap NDS for Cooney then you should give me some of the stuff your taking. Cooney is a far better player than NDS , he kicks more goals and is as good if not better than NDS by foot. His pace is another dimension that puts him ahead of NDS, but hey your entitled to your own opinion.

But your opinion is wrong!

Not interested in the opinion of a biased twat

Cooney is simply playing the first decent top level footy to date.

Dal Santo has done it...Conney is trying to do it. Basically Cooney has still achieved nothing as yet so dont waste my time and others with spotty kiddy hype.

With only 18mths apart i would choose Dal Santo in a heartbeat....unlike others i dont go on temporary form or current hype from half a season.

The only qualification is that i would let Dal Santo play his real game...total waste where he is right now.

Cooney doesnt have a defensive game AT ALL...u criticise Dal Santo about it then u better start acknowledging Cooney's issues also

........this thread is about how u cop criticism when your team is losing games rather than on reality of your own game...when the doggies are fading Cooney will be asked questions also. Suddenly they dont look so hot when losing.

 

[Bollox]

To me this is where Lyon is going wrong. Unless you have a Terry Tan contract forever and can totally turn over the list, the coach should be trying to have the side play a style of football that suits the strengths and weaknesses of the list he has. Not the list he wants to have, but the list he actually has.
Each group of players is not the same, they are better at some things and poor at others. The better teams are the ones who play a style of football that suits them - and the players also enjoy it and play better as a result.

Great post...couldnt agree more.

When u stuff with their game u stuff with their confidence as well.

Doubt Dal Santo will be thinking about attack after this...more worried about how to please the coach with his defence. ...and in a months time he'll probably be criticised for not being attacking enough or not enough inside 50's or goals.

Horses for courses.

You do NOT stifle talent. He should be hanging just away from the contest having guys feed him the ball. Lyon is dumb enough to want that disposal and decision making destroyed by throwing his head in a pack or playing defensively on another.