Primus - how is the gloss looking

[Ford Fairlane]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

The list was built by Williams. The gameplan was created by Williams and indoctrinated into the players. I will happily keep up 'that rubbish' because those are the facts.

if Primus doesn't deviate remarkably from what Williams left as his legacy then it might not just be Primus that is finished.

 

[oporto]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

^^^

Kane Cornes lover? Sorry, he's been rubbish for as long as i've been watching footy.

Surjan, Chad, Banner fan? Playing them won't help us.

Neither will being a blind fool oblivious to what's actually going on

 

[The Smaller Warrior]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

He still calls Williams every week to ask for advice.

lulzwut?

 

[Resilience]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

The list was built by Williams. The gameplan was created by Williams and indoctrinated into the players. I will happily keep up 'that rubbish' because those are the facts.

if Primus doesn't deviate remarkably from what Williams left as his legacy then it might not just be Primus that is finished.

Losing confidence is not about what happened before it is about now. Itis the most fragile thing in sport at an elite level.
Williams beat St Kilda on AAMI last year so maybe they should have used that gameplan !!!

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Give me a break. We have arguably the worst group of 25+ year olds in the AFL. This week it was Saint Nick, Dal Santo and Goddard, last week it was Brown, Black and Power and if we go further back I'm sure we'll see several more examples of senior players winning games for their team. Sure Salopek and Surjan have been disappointing which may be due to injury, but every other 25+ year old player has played presicely as expected.

We also have the most poorly funded football department in the AFL. I've said before that Primus will spend most of his tenure getting our list back to where it should be and I still subscribe to that belief. I'm not ready to pass judgement on Primus's ability to coach yet but I'll be very eager to see what happens list wise come season's end.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Just to expand. Primus took over a basket case club. But sadly to date he has shown zero aptitude for resurrecting our fortunes.

Playing kids is all well and good but if there is no discernible game plan, no obvious structure then it's just window dressing.

Our infracted out of existence pal Crow-mo had a sig that said the trouble with five year plans is they only lead to more five year plans.

 

[Resilience]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Just to expand. Primus took over a basket case club. But sadly to date he has shown zero aptitude for resurrecting our fortunes.

Playing kids is all well and good but if there is no discernible game plan, no obvious structure then it's just window dressing.

Our infracted out of existence pal Crow-mo had a sig that said the trouble with five year plans is they only lead to more five year plans.

Primus chose to take over this club. We can call it a basketcase but our players are better than they are showing. We have different opinions on why or how and we can chose to stay in the basketclub doldrums or we can chose to find a fast track way of getting better.
If the club truly was a basketcase why did Boak Gray Salopek etc stay last year.. They knew we have more talent than what we are showing.
If players are not developed and given confidence they will go into their shell and hide during games.
Choc must have the most influence any coach has had in the modern era that after 12 months players and coaches can't move on or learn.

 

[edgie]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Primus chose to take over this club. We can call it a basketcase but our players are better than they are showing. We have different opinions on why or how and we can chose to stay in the basketclub doldrums or we can chose to find a fast track way of getting better.
If the club truly was a basketcase why did Boak Gray Salopek etc stay last year.. They knew we have more talent than what we are showing.
If players are not developed and given confidence they will go into their shell and hide during games.
Choc must have the most influence any coach has had in the modern era that after 12 months players and coaches can't move on or learn.

Agreed, Primus and the new coaches and their new roles had a full pre-season and are more than half way through the year. It's hard to see any light at the end of this tunnel

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Primus chose to take over this club. We can call it a basketcase but our players are better than they are showing. We have different opinions on why or how and we can chose to stay in the basketclub doldrums or we can chose to find a fast track way of getting better.
If the club truly was a basketcase why did Boak Gray Salopek etc stay last year.. They knew we have more talent than what we are showing.
If players are not developed and given confidence they will go into their shell and hide during games.
Choc must have the most influence any coach has had in the modern era that after 12 months players and coaches can't move on or learn.

That sounds way too much like Choco's fast track back to a premiership post 2004 for my liking. Primus is showing that he is willing to take the pain to get us back to where we need to be and I am happy with that.

I will definitely want to see some major decisions at years end and some significant improvement next year but there is no way I am writing Primus off at this stage.

How good a coach was Clarko in his first year at Hawthorn? Lyon in his first year at St Kilda? Malthouse in his first year at Collingwood?

It takes time for a coach to develop his list and develop his gameplan. Only time will tell.

 

[Resilience]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

That sounds way too much like Choco's fast track back to a premiership post 2004 for my liking. Primus is showing that he is willing to take the pain to get us back to where we need to be and I am happy with that.

I will definitely want to see some major decisions at years end and some significant improvement next year but there is no way I am writing Primus off at this stage.

How good a coach was Clarko in his first year at Hawthorn? Lyon in his first year at St Kilda? Malthouse in his first year at Collingwood?

It takes time for a coach to develop his list and develop his gameplan. Only time will tell.

Fast tracking improvement and regaining confidence and self belief is about now and not about premierships. We are now entering the second year and the coaches had a choice re cutting / re-signing others at the end of last year and if you can't develop a game plan in a year then our players are just dumb or not listening. I still do not accept that we are not better than we are performing. Time is important for coach mastery but for every example you can give there are others that had a different result eg Just how good was tim watson, robert shaw, and matthew knights in their first year.. As you said time will tell and I hope you're right but my money would be against you based at present.

 

[Waspy79]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

If Primus does not move on at least one (preferably two or more) of Kornes, Rodan, Pearce, Motlop, Chaplin and Ebert at the end of this season then he's lost my support.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Fast tracking improvement and regaining confidence and self belief is about now and not about premierships. We are now entering the second year and the coaches had a choice re cutting / re-signing others at the end of last year and if you can't develop a game plan in a year then our players are just dumb or not listening. I still do not accept that we are not better than we are performing. Time is important for coach mastery but for every example you can give there are others that had a different result eg Just how good was tim watson, robert shaw, and matthew knights in their first year.. As you said time will tell and I hope you're right but my money would be against you based at present.

How did Clarko's gameplan look after a year? Lyon's? Malthouses?

How did Worsfolds look last year?

Primus decided rightly or wrongly to give players a chance to improve under his system. In a shallow draft year where we would have been scraping the barrell I wont hang him for that.

We could definitely be performing better right now but then that is hardly the point is it. The point is we are trying to turn our club around so that we can be premiership challengers again, not just less bad.

I agree on the last point. Who knows if Primus will be a Malthouse or a Watson, a Clarkson or a Shaw or dare I say it a Choco or a Knights. I don't, none of us do.

Time will tell.

 

[FishingRick04]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

The problem I have is our game plan isn't getting better, our juniors aren't developing and our seniors are woeful.

We are getting worse as the season continues!

I have to say, when we are in the middle of the oval 70 metres out why oh why would we choose to chip sideways to a free players rather than
a) Wait for a lead
b) wait for a player to run past with a long kick
c) kick it long and strong and hope for a mark?

It's really bad.

Thank god for foxtel IQ, I wacthed it in fast forward. I should have played Benny Hill music

 

[DonDraper]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

The problem I have is our game plan isn't getting better, our juniors aren't developing and our seniors are woeful.

What is this foreign concept you speak of?

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

The problem I have is our game plan isn't getting better, our juniors aren't developing and our seniors are woeful.

We are getting worse as the season continues!

I have to say, when we are in the middle of the oval 70 metres out why oh why would we choose to chip sideways to a free players rather than
a) Wait for a lead
b) wait for a player to run past with a long kick
c) kick it long and strong and hope for a mark?

It's really bad.

Thank god for foxtel IQ, I wacthed it in fast forward. I should have played Benny Hill music

The only saving grace in all of this for me was Primus saying in the presser that he was really dissapointed in the way we chipped sideways and didn't take the game on.

If he had said that was our intentional game plan I would have just about topped myself.

 

[GinnyT]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

The only saving grace in all of this for me was Primus saying in the presser that he was really dissapointed in the way we chipped sideways and didn't take the game on.

If he had said that was our intentional game plan I would have just about topped myself.

Saving grace! This tells me he has lost the players as they fail to adhere. I wonder if primus is in too deep and seriously thinking of pulling the pin?

 

[The Smaller Warrior]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

What is this foreign concept you speak of?

Hold on I'm working it out... Okay, half of you vibrate that way, two of you fall down. Nelson, you just spin around in a circle.

 

[tribey]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Hold on I'm working it out... Okay, half of you vibrate that way, two of you fall down. Nelson, you just spin around in a circle.

Damn you Rock'em Sock'em Robots!

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Saving grace! This tells me he has lost the players as they fail to adhere. I wonder if primus is in too deep and seriously thinking of pulling the pin?

Maybe the players just aren't good enough? Maybe Primus lacks support to properly coach? This is Primus's first full year with what is effectively still Choco's list, I doubt he's about to pull the pin especially when he's spent this season sorting the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

I love this Choco's list stuff... Like Primus hasn't been there for however many years. Oh yeah, the whole time he was going 'dammit Choco, you're screwing up our list! But I'll bide my time! I won't mention how much I disagree with you!'

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

As an assistant, Primus would have had as much input into list management as you did bernie.

 

[Macca19]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Yeah not sure the assistants would get any significant input into the shape of the list.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

But he seemed fine and content with it all those years he was an assistant. It's not like he didn't know what was going on. It's not like he was someone from outside the club coming in and saying "what the hell has happened here?!"

Here are the facts:

Salopek has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Surjan has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Ebert has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Kane has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Pearce has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career (last year averaged 3.7 tackles per game, this year 2.5 tackles per game, when apparently Primus is focussing more on 'workrate')
Carlile has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Paul Stewart, while he was playing, had taken a giant step back from last year.


You can say these players are just not up to it / past it and the senior players are letting Primus down. Plus there are some injuries involved. But there's only so far you can push that.

Primus has known these players for years now. He's known their strengths and weaknesses. He knows where they excel and where they don't. Yet all year, he has tried to play them differently. Kane stops being a tagger - he's now useless. Paul Stewart pushed up into the midfield and looks lost. Surjan not even getting selected and is unable to get consistency into his game.

I'm all for blooding the youngsters, but that has seemed to have been Primus' main concern. He's neglected and mishandled the senior players this year. It's easy to point fingers at the players, they're the ones we're watching - but with so many senior players going backwards, what is the difference between this year and last?

 

[tealpower]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Some fair points there Bernie. It would be good to know what these senior players are being told and apart from Brogan, all the senior players have been ordinary this year. That suggests the coaches may not be getting through to this vital group or they are simply ignoring them with an eye to youth promotion. It's a precarious path.

To me it sounds like divisions have been created within the player group and we field a weekly team but no team play exists.

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

But he seemed fine and content with it all those years he was an assistant. It's not like he didn't know what was going on. It's not like he was someone from outside the club coming in and saying "what the hell has happened here?!"

Maybe he liked keeping his job. We all have seen what happened to people in Choco's footy department that didn't agree with Choco's vision. There may be some truth to your previous post about Primus waiting for his chance.

Here are the facts:

Salopek has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Surjan has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Ebert has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Kane has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Pearce has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career (last year averaged 3.7 tackles per game, this year 2.5 tackles per game, when apparently Primus is focussing more on 'workrate')
Carlile has played worse under Primus than any other year in his career.
Paul Stewart, while he was playing, had taken a giant step back from last year.

The whole team has played worse under Primus, that's a fact! I'm wondering whether these players are just down on form or if maybe, just maybe, they've all had their weaknesses horribly exposed.

Salopek has always been slow and now the game is faster than ever
Surjan surely must be able to do more than act as a lock down defender, he's been a real fish out of water this year. Did Surjan ever provide the run out of defence than Logan now gives us?
Ebert is no better or worse than last year IMO
Kane is no better or worse than last year IMO
Pearce's issues haven't changed for 3 years despite the odd improvement or regression along the way
Carlile is a disappointment but he may have been carrying a hip injury for most of the year and our defence has been pummelled more than ever this year anyway.
Paul Stewart is another that surely must be able to do more than play as a half back flanker

You can say these players are just not up to it / past it and the senior players are letting Primus down. Plus there are some injuries involved. But there's only so far you can push that.

Primus has known these players for years now. He's known their strengths and weaknesses. He knows where they excel and where they don't. Yet all year, he has tried to play them differently. Kane stops being a tagger - he's now useless. Paul Stewart pushed up into the midfield and looks lost. Surjan not even getting selected and is unable to get consistency into his game.

I'm all for blooding the youngsters, but that has seemed to have been Primus' main concern. He's neglected and mishandled the senior players this year. It's easy to point fingers at the players, they're the ones we're watching - but with so many senior players going backwards, what is the difference between this year and last?

I think now we're getting to the point of the whole exercise. Knowing the senior players strengths and weaknesses is one thing but if we continue along that path we'll find ourselves looping 2008-2010 with no chance of improvement. There would be an expectation that our senior players would have more than 1 string to their bow.

The game has moved on so much now that you really can't be a one-dimensional player unless you're clearly the best in the comp at it. Our senior players have been massively over-nurtured for far too long and too much wallpaper has been used to cover the cracks. Of course Primus has a responsibility to the senior players, but they need to perform to expectations.

If Brogan, Cassisi, Westhoff, Schulz and Logan can play to the standard, why can't the other seniors? What do these players have that the others don't? For a start, all of them have more than one string to their bow.

The worst thing Primus could have possibly done is continue where Choco left off. He's changing the on-field direction of the club and while it is a painful change, it is a necessary change and one that I wouldn't want to judge him on just yet.