Primus - how is the gloss looking

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Maybe he liked keeping his job. We all have seen what happened to people in Choco's footy department that didn't agree with Choco's vision. There may be some truth to your previous post about Primus waiting for his chance.

That doesn't stop the fact that Primus has known these players for years. It's not like he's drastically changed our "gameplan" from Choco's. It's still trying to chip down the wings, if no one leads, kick it to a contest. The only difference is he's doing it with young players and moving players he already knows about into positions where they're not as strong. With worse results.

The whole team has played worse under Primus, that's a fact! I'm wondering whether these players are just down on form or if maybe, just maybe, they've all had their weaknesses horribly exposed.

Salopek has always been slow and now the game is faster than ever Yeah, Sam Mitchell is having his worst year to date because of the speed.
Surjan surely must be able to do more than act as a lock down defender, he's been a real fish out of water this year. Did Surjan ever provide the run out of defence than Logan now gives us? So because Surjan has only ever been used as a lockdown defender, that's what you believe? He was trialled for a few half games in the forward line and was our game winner in his first game against Adelaide. Then he's been dropped and barely given another go. As has been proven in the SANFL - he's a handy midfielder. Was BOG last week picking up 26 disposals. But nope, Logan is the only one standing in the way of Surjan apparently. It's the coaches pigeonholing him to only having one string to his bow that is limiting him.
Ebert is no better or worse than last year IMO Except the fact that he was best 22 when healthy last year, now he's in and out of the team. He was actually getting his hands on the ball last year, was just terrible at set shots. That's the only reason people wanted him dropped at all last year.
Kane is no better or worse than last year IMO Except that he won the BEST & FAIREST LAST YEAR!
Pearce's issues haven't changed for 3 years despite the odd improvement or regression along the way Perhaps not, but his effort and skills have been remarkably down this year
Carlile is a disappointment but he may have been carrying a hip injury for most of the year and our defence has been pummelled more than ever this year anyway. The hip injury could have a lot to do with it, it wasn't really mentioned while his form was down, so maybe he was trying to hide it. Who knows, all we can go by is the output he did have.
Paul Stewart is another that surely must be able to do more than play as a half back flanker He had his breakout year as a half back flanker, then gets pushed into the midfield the very next year. He's not a superstar player who can play anywhere and may need an adjustment period. But he's also a younger player and won our most improved last year... why just screw with his development by moving him? At the very least, he had a big body who could defend. Which is what we have lacked ALL year on a HBF.

I think now we're getting to the point of the whole exercise. Knowing the senior players strengths and weaknesses is one thing but if we continue along that path we'll find ourselves looping 2008-2010 with no chance of improvement. There would be an expectation that our senior players would have more than 1 string to their bow.

The game has moved on so much now that you really can't be a one-dimensional player unless you're clearly the best in the comp at it. Our senior players have been massively over-nurtured for far too long and too much wallpaper has been used to cover the cracks. Of course Primus has a responsibility to the senior players, but they need to perform to expectations.

If Brogan, Cassisi, Westhoff, Schulz and Logan can play to the standard, why can't the other seniors? What do these players have that the others don't? For a start, all of them have more than one string to their bow.

The worst thing Primus could have possibly done is continue where Choco left off. He's changing the on-field direction of the club and while it is a painful change, it is a necessary change and one that I wouldn't want to judge him on just yet.

If I could see positive change, I'd be more than happy. Westhoff and Logan have stepped up from last year. Westhoff finally pulled his finger out and starting putting in effort and Logan was finally given a decent chance. But that's 2 players stepping up their game, in comparison to the amount of players that have dropped. Brogan, Cassisi and Schulz played as well as they did last year. That isn't -improvement-, it's just staying the course. And they're great players and I'm glad they've managed to keep up their form.

All I can say is, I cannot believe Primus would have gone into his interviews to be Coach saying "well, we'll only win 2 games next year, but I got a plan!". There's no way anyone could be happy with how the club has gone. And Primus has known these players for years. He's come in, muddled around a bit and now we're having arguably our worst season in 141 years. In Primus' first year as coach.

I'm happy to give him next year as well. But I'm very pessimistic about it. At the end of next year if we haven't improved on this year, not only would I not be surprised if everyone jumped off the Primus bandwagon, but I'd be surprised if we still had a club.

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

I agree some of the player positioning/selections have been puzzling and I really do hope there is a method to it all, but yeah, these are dark days and it's very hard to be optimistic about our club at the moment.

 

[oporto]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Maybe he liked keeping his job. We all have seen what happened to people in Choco's footy department that didn't agree with Choco's vision. There may be some truth to your previous post about Primus waiting for his chance.

Maybe he's out of his depth and is tactically inept?

The whole team has played worse under Primus, that's a fact! I'm wondering whether these players are just down on form or if maybe, just maybe, they've all had their weaknesses horribly exposed.

A good coach puts his players in a position to succeed not the other way around. Primus has NFI what he's doing which is obvious in the roles he and his staff have asked people to play

Salopek has always been slow and now the game is faster than ever
Surjan surely must be able to do more than act as a lock down defender, he's been a real fish out of water this year. Did Surjan ever provide the run out of defence than Logan now gives us?
Ebert is no better or worse than last year IMO
Kane is no better or worse than last year IMO
Pearce's issues haven't changed for 3 years despite the odd improvement or regression along the way
Carlile is a disappointment but he may have been carrying a hip injury for most of the year and our defence has been pummelled more than ever this year anyway.
Paul Stewart is another that surely must be able to do more than play as a half back flanker

Salopek is an inside midfielder. Play him as an inside midfielder. It doesn't take a spider monkey to work out Matthew Priddis and Jobe Watson are slower than Salopek yet we don't play a premium midfielder in his bloody position

Surjan is infinitely better than Logan. You only had to watch his lack of positional awareness with Stephen Milne inside the defensive 50 to realize that. Logan runs off and gets the ball in cheap little one two possessions. I don't care for that from someone whose role is supposedly to keep the small forwards of the opposition quiet. His season has been severely overrated to date

Ebert is a half forward flanker who should be running up the ground. Never played in that position. Kane is a tagger and should be played in that position. Haven't seen it this year.

Pearce has shown signs he's willing to work for the team. Looks lost in the midfield structure thanks to the structure itself. Carlile is clearly injured and out of form. Nice to see Cripps can ruin our formerly best unit.

Paul Stewart was a world beater and the best thing to come of 2010. He now looks like a Cripps coached spud and de-list material. He should be playing a Harry O role in defense. Nope, not utilized

I think now we're getting to the point of the whole exercise. Knowing the senior players strengths and weaknesses is one thing but if we continue along that path we'll find ourselves looping 2008-2010 with no chance of improvement. There would be an expectation that our senior players would have more than 1 string to their bow.

Yeah, sitting at the foot of the table because the staff has caused a clear divide between senior and junior players is all the senior players fault and all their weakness right? Not one of our juniors looks AFL standard. But hey, give them a game because they're young and that'll fix everything

The game has moved on so much now that you really can't be a one-dimensional player unless you're clearly the best in the comp at it. Our senior players have been massively over-nurtured for far too long and too much wallpaper has been used to cover the cracks. Of course Primus has a responsibility to the senior players, but they need to perform to expectations.

Bulldust. Midfielders and the occasional pinch hitting ruck tall are the only ways who need to be more than one dimensional.

If Brogan, Cassisi, Westhoff, Schulz and Logan can play to the standard, why can't the other seniors? What do these players have that the others don't? For a start, all of them have more than one string to their bow.

Only Brogan & Schulz have been consistently excellent this season with Cassisi following them closely behind.

The worst thing Primus could have possibly done is continue where Choco left off. He's changing the on-field direction of the club and while it is a painful change, it is a necessary change and one that I wouldn't want to judge him on just yet.

You're right, that is the worst thing. Coach to win games is just horrible. It's amazing how blind people are becoming to what's actually going on. Choco needed to go but he was coaching to win. It's no surprise to me that the players played for Primus when he was using Choco's game plan late last season and how they've been given a dog's breakfast on game day and in their preparation they couldn't give a stuff. But it's OK. The kids will solve everything because they're young

Primus has proven to be the complete opposite of Choco and we're considerably worse off for it at these early stages. At least we are humble

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Maybe he's out of his depth and is tactically inept?

Maybe he is

A good coach puts his players in a position to succeed not the other way around. Primus has NFI what he's doing which is obvious in the roles he and his staff have asked people to play

A good coach ultimately delivers. I'm not going to judge Primus on the back of one poor season.

Salopek is an inside midfielder. Play him as an inside midfielder. It doesn't take a spider monkey to work out Matthew Priddis and Jobe Watson are slower than Salopek yet we don't play a premium midfielder in his bloody position

Surjan is infinitely better than Logan. You only had to watch his lack of positional awareness with Stephen Milne inside the defensive 50 to realize that. Logan runs off and gets the ball in cheap little one two possessions. I don't care for that from someone whose role is supposedly to keep the small forwards of the opposition quiet. His season has been severely overrated to date

Ebert is a half forward flanker who should be running up the ground. Never played in that position. Kane is a tagger and should be played in that position. Haven't seen it this year.

Pearce has shown signs he's willing to work for the team. Looks lost in the midfield structure thanks to the structure itself. Carlile is clearly injured and out of form. Nice to see Cripps can ruin our formerly best unit.

Paul Stewart was a world beater and the best thing to come of 2010. He now looks like a Cripps coached spud and de-list material. He should be playing a Harry O role in defense. Nope, not utilized

We all have our opinions on these players and I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I do note that Sal and Ebert weren't played in their 'preferred' positions under Choco as well.

Yeah, sitting at the foot of the table because the staff has caused a clear divide between senior and junior players is all the senior players fault and all their weakness right? Not one of our juniors looks AFL standard. But hey, give them a game because they're young and that'll fix everything

Not exactly, we're sitting at the foot of the table because ultimately, our senior players aren't good enough. Even if they were played in their best positions, I doubt we'll be much further up the ladder.

Bulldust. Midfielders and the occasional pinch hitting ruck tall are the only ways who need to be more than one dimensional.

I disagree. I now see a game where if you're not a KPP or Ruck you're effectively a midfielder. Even rucks today get their own clearances and the second ruck has been effectively phased out. It's all about run and less about positioning now. The players listed above have mostly struggled to adapt to that profile although it could be entirely due to Primus' poor coaching, I just can't make that call yet.

Only Brogan & Schulz have been consistently excellent this season with Cassisi following them closely behind.

Consistently excellent yes, but my point was about playing to an AFL standard for senior players which I believe the players I listed have done so this year. Just my opinion.

You're right, that is the worst thing. Coach to win games is just horrible. It's amazing how blind people are becoming to what's actually going on. Choco needed to go but he was coaching to win. It's no surprise to me that the players played for Primus when he was using Choco's game plan late last season and how they've been given a dog's breakfast on game day and in their preparation they couldn't give a stuff. But it's OK. The kids will solve everything because they're young

Primus has proven to be the complete opposite of Choco and we're considerably worse off for it at these early stages. At least we are humble

I have to take issue with this. I was a huge Choco fan and it was a bitter pill for me to swallow when I finally came to the realisation that Choco was no longer coaching to win, rather, he was coaching not to lose. When I accepted this concept, it all became clear that his time was up and he had left us with a list full of brothers/cousins/recycled hacks that will take a couple of off seasons to purge.

Primus has come in and made his intentions clear with regards to professionalism at the club. He's working with arguably the worst support staff in the most poorly funded football department in the league. I'm not convinced that Choco or another iteration of Choco would have us in any better position to be honest.

 

[oporto]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

Maybe he is

It's painfully obvious that he is. I can't think of a run of moves in a game this season where I thought "geez, that's some excellent coaching right there"

A good coach ultimately delivers. I'm not going to judge Primus on the back of one poor season.

Primus has been judged since he took over as caretaker coach. I'd be inclined to agree with you if the drop off from 2010 to 2011 wasn't so dramatic and the heart of the club had been ripped out and served to us with humility

We all have our opinions on these players and I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I do note that Sal and Ebert weren't played in their 'preferred' positions under Choco as well.

Believe me, Choco was not devoid of my criticism. Salopek's use whilst at Port Adelaide has been the biggest disappointment for mine

Not exactly, we're sitting at the foot of the table because ultimately, our senior players aren't good enough. Even if they were played in their best positions, I doubt we'll be much further up the ladder.

Nah. We're sitting at the foot of the table because we have crap coaches, a poor game plan, have gifted junior players undeserving of AFL experience games because of age and polarized the senior player group to the point where they appear to simply not care anymore

I disagree. I now see a game where if you're not a KPP or Ruck you're effectively a midfielder. Even rucks today get their own clearances and the second ruck has been effectively phased out. It's all about run and less about positioning now. The players listed above have mostly struggled to adapt to that profile although it could be entirely due to Primus' poor coaching, I just can't make that call yet.

What you've done is expanded the definition of a role not required more strings in a bow as you say

Consistently excellent yes, but my point was about playing to an AFL standard for senior players which I believe the players I listed have done so this year. Just my opinion.

That's fair enough

I have to take issue with this. I was a huge Choco fan and it was a bitter pill for me to swallow when I finally came to the realisation that Choco was no longer coaching to win, rather, he was coaching not to lose. When I accepted this concept, it all became clear that his time was up and he had left us with a list full of brothers/cousins/recycled hacks that will take a couple of off seasons to purge.

As I mentioned, I wasn't too pleased with what happened in terms of list management. I think this was more a product of getting the direction in which football was headed wrong and drafting players on that basis. A lot of this problem is Peter Rohde's not just Choco's

Primus has come in and made his intentions clear with regards to professionalism at the club. He's working with arguably the worst support staff in the most poorly funded football department in the league. I'm not convinced that Choco or another iteration of Choco would have us in any better position to be honest.

I agree. He took a head coaching job at the bargain basement rate because we couldn't afford someone of better quality. I'm blame the club more than Matthew Primus for that. Hell we couldn't even give him decent assistants and one of those is going to be in charge of the future direction of list management. That thought makes me cringe

The problem with this mentality for mine is when you operate on a shoe string budget you should be looking far and wide to encourage innovation and cutting edge operations to gain the edge. All we get is complaining about players not fitting the game plan and being humble

I feel sorry for Mattress. I truly do

 

[tribey]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

^We absolutely needed an untainted external influence to attempt to change the cultural wasteland of the previous regime, of which Primus was one of the architects. If we want to absolve him under the Nuremberg defence - I was just following orders! - then we're left with what? A passive sycophant? The epitome of humble, at least.

A guy like Gary Ayres would've been ideal as a temporary measure. Twice cleaned up Blight's enigmatic messes to forge strong cultures in short order - knowing when to part ways once he'd run out of ideas would be the key.

Primus was in too deep and then in over his head. Started making noises about moving to Melbourne and the board duly shifted the deckchairs and promoted the favorite son.

 

[FishingRick04]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

I wanted Scott but I will give Matty his term plus there is no way we would let him go, it would be a PR disaster!

 

[b0ydman]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

brilliant thread

Oporto and Bernie Nipps 100% right

Primus has NFI what he's doing

and Westhoff is nothing either

 

[b0ydman]

Re: Port v St Kilda gameday

^We absolutely needed an untainted external influence to attempt to change the cultural wasteland of the previous regime, of which Primus was one of the architects. If we want to absolve him under the Nuremberg defence - I was just following orders! - then we're left with what? A passive sycophant? The epitome of humble, at least.

.

it was visible for all to see in the games vs St Kilda and Bulldogs last year

He's a lovely guy, but he has no idea

Even worse Laidley and Co in the box are no help

 

[Fazualdo]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

I have purposely not been contributing much this year as I only have negative things to say at the moment, all i can say is I love your post Bernie Nipps.

Choco is gone and there not much point going over it, but if you where to ask me the question - would of we been more competetive under Choco - hell yes!! I mean don't get me wrong his time was up and we had plenty of dissapointments over the last 3-4 years, but it doesn't seem as if we have improved the coaching position by appointing Primus. To use Dreamteam talk, it was like we traded our $250k 6/7th picked player to pick up a 2 game $94k rookie and hoped he would average 100 points a week.

At the end of year expect a longer more in depth evalutation of how I see it. Hopefully somethings improve because its pretty dark and nasty at the moment.

 

[Pedro59]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

how did this thread change tip the saint kilda one?

anyway my two cents

like to see Surg back in backlines

Kane is redundent

and I can't help agreeing that
OLDER PLAYERS HAVE GOT WORSE AND NEW ONES HAVENT COME ON

This must be a coachhing thing and I also agree its got too complicated

 

[Fazualdo]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Primus's move a couple of weeks ago to have Kane as the substitue has to go down as one of the all time stupidiest coaching moves of all time. I mean Kanes strength is he can run all day, he's not an impact player - he's not gonna come of the bench in the last quarter and win the game with 3-4 goals.

The role cries out for someone like Rodan or Pearce who could make a difference and are a big chance to be inconsistent for the first 3 quarters anyway.

Salter @ CHB, Chad @ FF lol - what is wrong with trying Salts up forward seriously it is as if Salter has told them he doesn't want to play forward.

 

[Waspy79]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Primus's move a couple of weeks ago to have Kane as the substitue has to go down as one of the all time stupidiest coaching moves of all time. I mean Kanes strength is he can run all day, he's not an impact player - he's not gonna come of the bench in the last quarter and win the game with 3-4 goals.

The role cries out for someone like Rodan or Pearce who could make a difference and are a big chance to be inconsistent for the first 3 quarters anyway.

Sadly I agree, a ridiculous coaching decision. Can we seek an explanation?

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

It could be worse.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html

Knights has been quietly working with Adelaide for no financial reward since the 2011 pre-season helping Neil Craig with opposition analysis. His role, according to the Crows, has been to analyse key performances and individuals from teams the Crows are about to play.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...rows-20110712-1hc8y.html#ixzz1RzVWromy[/QUOTE]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html

 

[Quadzilla]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

It could be worse.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html#ixzz1RzVWromy


Knights has been quietly working with Adelaide for no financial reward since the 2011 pre-season helping Neil Craig with opposition analysis. His role, according to the Crows, has been to analyse key performances and individuals from teams the Crows are about to play.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html#ixzz1RzVWromy

all I can say - he's overpaid!

 

[Power Pete]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

It could be worse.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html

Knights has been quietly working with Adelaide for no financial reward since the 2011 pre-season helping Neil Craig with opposition analysis. His role, according to the Crows, has been to analyse key performances and individuals from teams the Crows are about to play.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html#ixzz1RzVWromy

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-works-with-crows-20110712-1hc8y.html

Today's Advertiser: Scott Camporeale and not Matthew Knights is Adelaide's trump card as it plots Essendon's downfall. Crows football operations manager Phil Harper said he had no knowledge of Knights playing any role in the build-up to the Friday night clash. "Matthew is not on our books, he is not on our pay-roll", he said. "If anything Scott Camporeale's given us more information that anyone, having worked with Essendon for a few years."

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

It is never a good sign when you are consulting with someone and dont even want to publically admit it.

 

[b0ydman]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

how did this thread change to the saint kilda one?

probably because we are 400 posts in and no one can see a n example where we can point and say "that was a coaching move Primus can put his hat on"

all we see are baffling, perplexing decisions

and the st kilda exhibition (its not a game when you only have 4 goals to 3/4 time) was a case in point we can refer to because it is fresh in the memory and was so diabolically bad it warrants discussion in this thread

maybe we can find the thread "what primus said he would do and what Primus has shown us

ie 2 bad games you go out

or maybe we've been there 50 times before and we can all see with our eyes

i mean we lot to gold coast from 40 points up?

 

[Spadge]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

was it a smart move giving Primus 3 years? im starting to question it

 

[PatientMental]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

probably because we are 400 posts in and no one can see a n example where we can point and say "that was a coaching move Primus can put his hat on"

all we see are baffling, perplexing decisions

and the st kilda exhibition (its not a game when you only have 4 goals to 3/4 time) was a case in point we can refer to because it is fresh in the memory and was so diabolically bad it warrants discussion in this thread

maybe we can find the thread "what primus said he would do and what Primus has shown us

ie 2 bad games you go out

or maybe we've been there 50 times before and we can all see with our eyes

i mean we lot to gold coast from 40 points up?

Was only the case for 2010.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Was only the case for 2010.

HUGE rule...

...for the last 7 games of a season. :/

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

2 bad games and you're out is fine in principle but it's not practical. If we drop every player who plays 2 bad games in a row we'll quickly run out of players to select and we're already scraping the bottom of the barrel as it is. Makes Surjan's non-selection all the more confusing - there must seriously be something going on there that we're not aware of.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Sack this ****ing idiot now.

 

[Macca19]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

2 bad games is fine when your half decent, but when it comes down to only having about 4 players on any given week that deserve a spot then we would have started to forfeit games by Round 3.

Surj wont be at the club next year. Thats quite obvious.

 

[Ported]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Surj wont be at the club next year. Thats quite obvious.

And the suckier thing is, we won't play him and will watch his trade value plummet. Not to say that we should, it's just a tricky call.