Play Nice Random Chat Thread VII

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This report documents research and analysis conducted as part of the
RAND Corporation research project Extending Russia: Competing
from Advantageous Ground, sponsored by the Army Quadrennial
Defense Review Office, Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff G-8,
Headquarters, Department of the Army. The purpose of the project

was to examine a range of possible means to extend Russia. By this, we
mean nonviolent measures that could stress Russia’s military or econ-

omy or the regime’s political standing at home and abroad. The steps
we posit would not have either defense or deterrence as their prime
purpose, although they might contribute to both. Rather, these steps
are conceived of as measures that would lead Russia to compete in
domains or regions where the United States has a competitive advan-
tage, causing Russia to overextend itself militarily or economically or
causing the regime to lose domestic and/or international prestige and
influence.
...
Measure 1: Provide Lethal Aid to Ukraine

...
By early 2017, some 60,000 Ukrainian
soldiers were facing off against some 40,000 Russian-backed separatist
forces—including an estimated 5,000 Russian soldiers—in a conflict
that has so far cost some 10,000 people their lives.
...
In December 2017, the United States
approved the sale of “defensive” lethal weapons to Ukraine, although it
did not specify what weapons fell into the category.
The United States could also become more vocal in its support for
NATO membership for Ukraine. Some U.S. policymakers—including
Republican Senator and 2016 presidential candidate Marco Rubio—
backed this approach in the past and Ukrainian President Porosh-
enko recently promised to hold a referendum on the issue in the near
future. While NATO’s requirement for unanimity makes it unlikely

that Ukraine could gain membership in the foreseeable future, Washing-
ton’s pushing this possibility could boost Ukrainian resolve while lead-

ing Russia to redouble its efforts to forestall such a development.


Benefits

Expanding U.S. assistance to Ukraine, including lethal military
assistance, would likely increase the costs to Russia, in both blood

and treasure, of holding the Donbass region. More Russian aid to the
separatists and an additional Russian troop presence would likely be
required, leading to larger expenditures, equipment losses, and Rus-

sian casualties. The latter could become quite controversial at home,
as it did when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.
Two other somewhat more speculative benefits might flow from
such an expanded U.S. commitment. Countries elsewhere that look to
the United States for their security might be heartened. Some of those
states might find new reasons to avoid developing their own nuclear
weapons.
...


Risks
An increase in U.S. security assistance to Ukraine would likely lead
to a commensurate increase in both Russian aid to the separatists
and Russian military forces in Ukraine, thus sustaining the con-
flict at a somewhat higher level of intensity. 20 Lieutenant General
Ben Hodges, the former commanding general of U.S. Army Europe,
argued against giving Javelin anti-tank missiles to Ukraine for pre-
cisely this reason.
Alternatively, Russia might counter-escalate, committing more
troops and pushing them deeper into Ukraine.
Russia might even pre-
empt U.S. action, escalating before any additional U.S. aid arrives. Such

escalation might extend Russia; Eastern Ukraine is already a drain.
Taking more of Ukraine might only increase the burden, albeit at the

expense of the Ukrainian people. However, such a move might also
come at a significant cost to Ukraine and to U.S. prestige and credibil-
ity. This could produce disproportionately large Ukrainian casualties,

territorial losses, and refugee flows. It might even lead Ukraine into a
disadvantageous peace.


Russian Propaganda.
 
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The no vote was another kick in the guts to Indigenous people. The fact you don’t feel it does not minimise it.

Yeah it was.

As a side issue tho the Voice to parliament should come after appropriate treaties not beforehand. The Australian Parliament has no legitimate authority over indigenous Australians until treaties happen. Now this shit has happened treaties are even further away.

The point being that abuse of a people within a country does not justify an armed invasion of that country for reasons unrelated to those people.

You’re literally twisting yourself in knots trying to minimise the actions of a fascist. It’s ****ing pathetic.


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At what point did I say that Putin invading Ukraine was justified by Ukraine's racist policies? Are you lying to make out I said something I didn't say or just mistaken?
 
That Russian propaganda I posted above was published in 2019 before the extension of lethal aid to Ukraine by the US government.

It clearly predicts that extension of lethal aid to Ukraine (thanks Chad) would extend and stress Russia but could also provoke the response we have seen - an invasion that produced disproportionately large Ukrainian casualties, territorial losses, and refugee flows.
 
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...what do you think this proves?

This is a thinktank paper (not a government policy or anything) written in 2018/2019 in the context of Russia's aggression in the region. Primarily their taking of Crimea in the immediately preceding 5 year period.

Are we allowed to link Russian hardliner papers now that say Russia should retake Kazazkhstan, Czechia, Ukraine, and re-establish the USSR? Is that evidence of anything?
 
It clearly predicts that extension of lethal aid to Russia would extend and stress Russia but could also provoke the response we have seen - an invasion that produced disproportionately large Ukrainian casualties, territorial losses, and refugee flows.

Why do you frame it like this to make it sound like "the extension of lethal aid" to Ukraine (not Russia as you said but assume that was a brainfart) happened before Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Prior to 2014, America's military aid to Ukraine was tiny.

After Russia invaded and annexed Crimea in 2014, all the way through to just before the Russian second invasion, reports suggest the total US military aid provided to Ukraine equaled approximately $1.5 billion. Over a 5-6 year~ period, that is a drop in the bucket. It's nothing.

AND let's not forget that it came in the context of Russia invading and stealing Ukranian territory!

And this is why arguing with you on this issue is always so frustrating, because you scream up and down that "Russia was provoked!" but fail to mention that the 'provocation' you're referring to came specifically in response to Russian aggression in 2014.
 
...what do you think this proves?

It comments on government policy at the time and accurately predicts the results.

This is a thinktank paper (not a government policy or anything) written in 2018/2019 in the context of Russia's aggression in the region. Primarily their taking of Crimea in the immediately preceding 5 year period.

Congratulation captain Obvious. you just stated the obvious.

BTW Are you referring to that same Crimea that Ukraine denied independence to in the early 90s? That Crimea?

Are we allowed to link Russian hardliner papers now that say Russia should retake Kazazkhstan, Czechia, Ukraine, and re-establish the USSR? Is that evidence of anything?

I didn't know you weren't allowed to do that. If it makes you feel better I think you be allowed to link to those papers if you want. Is there a petition we can sign?
 
You’ve always been a Putin fan hey.
I have nothing in the game, I don't know enough to really care. I was taught to not trust Russia from a young age, I then went to school with quite a few and learnt the truth. They are very family-oriented and Russian Mums do anything for their kids - so it's hard to remain an enemy of theirs. They're nice people usually.

As for KGB dude, I don't know, I like him - but I like you too. Doesn't mean we don't have disagreements.
 
That Russian propaganda I posted above was published in 2019 before the extension of lethal aid to Ukraine by the US government.

It clearly predicts that extension of lethal aid to Ukraine (thanks Chad) would extend and stress Russia but could also provoke the response we have seen - an invasion that produced disproportionately large Ukrainian casualties, territorial losses, and refugee flows.

5 years after they took Crimea. And you’re claiming they were provoked. You’re a Putin stenographer.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Why do you frame it like this to make it sound like "the extension of lethal aid" to Ukraine (not Russia as you said but assume that was a brainfart) happened before Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Prior to 2014, America's military aid to Ukraine was tiny.

Yes and prior till 2017/18 it was non existent.

After Russia invaded and annexed Crimea in 2014, all the way through to just before the Russian second invasion, reports suggest the total US military aid provided to Ukraine equaled approximately $1.5 billion. Over a 5-6 year~ period, that is a drop in the bucket. It's nothing.

Its double that but its still providing weapons to Russia's neighbour.

AND let's not forget that it came in the context of Russia invading and stealing Ukranian territory!

And this is why arguing with you on this issue is always so frustrating, because you scream up and down that "Russia was provoked!" but fail to mention that the 'provocation' you're referring to came specifically in response to Russian aggression in 2014.

So what. The Russian aggression in 2014 was a direct response to US interference (20 years after Ukrainian aggression prevented Crimea from achieving independence coincidentally enough. No doubt you support their imperialist aims in that case.)

The US started providing lethal aid during Trumps first year as president and escalated the level of aid over the next five years while integrating Ukraine's military into NATO's systems (even if they didn't actually join NATO.)

Are you saying that wasn't provocative and that there wasn't a very high likelihood that this would escalate the situation?
 
5 years after they took Crimea. And you’re claiming they were provoked. You’re a Putin stenographer.


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That's 20 years after Ukraine sent military forces to Crimea and demanded they stop their attempts at independence.

Ukraine has no right to Crimea beyond what Krushchev gave them to simplify USSR admin. If you want to start a movement for full Crimean independence then I'll join you in calling for Russia to leave.
 
Its double that but its still providing weapons to Russia's neighbour.

Source?

So what. The Russian aggression in 2014 was a direct response to US interference

Hahahaha **** off it was not.

That's such a blatantly pro-Russian way of framing the situation.

What actually happened can be summarised as thus;
  1. Up until 2014, Ukraine was led by pro-Russian governments. (Some call them 'Russian Puppet' governments, but let's stick to the facts for this purpose).
  2. Popular democratic sentiment in Ukraine was a much more aligned towards the EU than Russia.
  3. President Yanukovych, under direct pressure from Russia (including what basically amounts to sanctions - how's that for foreign interference?) abandoned a planned and agreed upon free-trade agreement with the EU.
  4. Yanukovych in late 2013 then literally said that Putin told him he would invade Crimea and Donbas if Ukraine signed the free-trade agreement with the EU.
  5. Yanukovych publicly pivoted his government positions/policies away from the EU and back towards Russia.
  6. The people of Ukraine were furious, felt betrayed, and thus began what the Ukranians call the 'Revolution of Dignity', but what you call the Euromaidan protests, to overthrow what they saw as the Russian puppet government and seek actual democratic representation.
Yanukovych's government then resigned, fled to Russia (surprise surprise), and Russia annexed Crimea in early 2014.

At no point here was there "US interference" that was a factor in what transpired. Nor was there EU interference. This situation was solely the unilateral actions of Russia upset that they'd lost influence and dominion over a puppet neighbour state where they had made sweet-heart and Russia-favoring deals to keep their strategic naval base for the Russian Black Sea Fleet.


(20 years after Ukrainian aggression prevented Crimea from achieving independence coincidentally enough. No doubt you support their imperialist aims in that case.)

You keep raising this as if it's some sort of 'gotcha' or provides any kind of justification whatsoever.

Yeah, Crimea wanted to be it's own state like many other regions in the geo-political chaos that unfolded at the fall of the Soviet Union. Guess what? It didn't happen, just like plenty of other regions didn't become their own states. Crimea absolutely does not have the resources, industries, or geography to be a truly autonomous independent state, and they've been a part of Ukraine for nearly 100 years.

Are you saying that wasn't provocative and that there wasn't a very high likelihood that this would escalate the situation?

Am I saying that the US providing military aid to a country that was literally invaded by Russia was "provocative"? No, I'm not. I'm saying that Russia invading Ukraine was provocative.
 
Ukraine has no right to Crimea beyond what Krushchev gave them to simplify USSR admin.

Hahaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha.

This is fully mask-off, extreme pro-Russian nonsense.

At least now you're not hiding it, I suppose.
 

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You to a tee. Bomb, kill, maim, rape, invade.

But you only care about when you can use your historical link to oppression to justify your decision to turn away from present bombing, killing, maiming and raping.
Yes we've discussed Israels actions at length.
 
Source?



Hahahaha **** off it was not.

That's such a blatantly pro-Russian way of framing the situation.

What actually happened can be summarised as thus;
  1. Up until 2014, Ukraine was led by pro-Russian governments. (Some call them 'Russian Puppet' governments, but let's stick to the facts for this purpose).

No it wasn't.

  1. Popular democratic sentiment in Ukraine was a much more aligned towards the EU than Russia.
  2. President Yanukovych, under direct pressure from Russia (including what basically amounts to sanctions - how's that for foreign interference?) abandoned a planned and agreed upon free-trade agreement with the EU.

American spooks helped Yanukoych get elected when the head of the Orange Revolution tried was doing a deal to increase trade and build closer ties between Ukraine, Russia and the EU.

Also ... free trade agreements are pus.

  1. Yanukovych in late 2013 then literally said that Putin told him he would invade Crimea and Donbas if Ukraine signed the free-trade agreement with the EU.
  2. Yanukovych publicly pivoted his government positions/policies away from the EU and back towards Russia.

Yes, because Ukraine is politically divided along geographical lines. There is alot less support for russia west of Donbas. Just out of interest what are the terms of these ftas? They're notorious for being weighted in favour of large economies.

  1. The people of Ukraine were furious, felt betrayed, and thus began what the Ukranians call the 'Revolution of Dignity', but what you call the Euromaidan protests, to overthrow what they saw as the Russian puppet government and seek actual democratic representation.
Yanukovych's government then resigned, fled to Russia (surprise surprise), and Russia annexed Crimea in early 2014.

Not all of Ukraine. Otherwise there would have been no momentum for a seperatist movement. How do you know people in the east of Ukraine, where the most valuable resources are, just didn't want western companies coming in and taking them for the sort of prices they pay for our resources?
At no point here was there "US interference" that was a factor in what transpired. Nor was there EU interference. This situation was solely the unilateral actions of Russia upset that they'd lost influence and dominion over a puppet neighbour state where they had made sweet-heart and Russia-favoring deals to keep their strategic naval base for the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

LOL That's pretty much the same gas deal Tymochenko and Putin agreed to before Yanukovych won an election cos he being advised by a seppo spook. If the US hadn't got involved Ukraine would have had the gas deal without having to sign the lease. They could have then got something else out of Russia as well if they'd agreed to sign the lease.

You keep raising this as if it's some sort of 'gotcha' or provides any kind of justification whatsoever.

Yeah, Crimea wanted to be it's own state like many other regions in the geo-political chaos that unfolded at the fall of the Soviet Union. Guess what? It didn't happen, just like plenty of other regions didn't become their own states. Crimea absolutely does not have the resources, industries, or geography to be a truly autonomous independent state, and they've been a part of Ukraine for nearly 100 years less than 50 years when they declared independence.

There fixed that for you.



What you are saying is flat out wrong!

They have huge amounts of fossil fuels (resources), are a peninsula (independent geography) and at the end of the USSR had plenty of industrial development in that era's STEM fields. (Till those industries were looted because they didn't have the independence to protect them.) Control over Sevastapol was also a resource they could have used.

You are literally making stuff up to support a bullshit argument to justify denying people who wanted independence that very independence.

Farken el oh el.

If they don't have the stuff they need to be truly independent then where does that leave Palestine? Or Timor Leste?
 
Hahaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha.

This is fully mask-off, extreme pro-Russian nonsense.

At least now you're not hiding it, I suppose.


LOL Crimea was part of Russia before Ukraine even existed. Before that it was a Tartar Khanate, the sort of state the horse riding people of the steppe developed, while southern European traders occupied its coast.
 
American spooks helped Yanukoych get elected when the head of the Orange Revolution tried was doing a deal to increase trade and build closer ties between Ukraine, Russia and the EU.
I thought this was the crux of the issue, and why mannfort and co got involved, the Americans wanted to make sure the Germans and Russians could never join, they proposed an alternative pipeline from Qatar.
They basically rose up an oligarch o power, one who could barley speak Ukrainian and armed the resistance
 
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Yeah the Democrats are far more harsh on Israel…..

Biden notifies congress of $8Billion arms sale to Israel…



State Department has notified Congress "informally" of an $8 billion proposed arms deal with Israel that will include munitions for fighter jets and attack helicopters as well as artillery shells, two sources with direct knowledge tell Axios.
Why it matters: This will likely be the last weapons sale to Israelthe Biden administration approves.

  • It comes amid claims from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his supporters in recent months that Biden had imposed a silent "arms embargo" on Israel.
  • Some Democrats pushed the administration to condition arms sales to Israel based on Israel's handling of the war effort and the humanitarian situation in Gaza, but Biden declined to do so.
  • This is a long-term agreement, according to the sources. Some production and delivery of the munitions can be fulfilled through current U.S. stocks, but the majority will take one or more years to deliver.
Zoom in: The sources said the arms sale — which needs approval from the House and Senate foreign relations committees — includes AIM-120C-8 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles for fighter jets to defend against airborne threats, including drones.

  • The sale also includes 155mm artillery shells and Hellfire AGM-114 missiles for attack helicopters.



  • The proposed deal also includes small diameter bombs, JDAM tail kits that turn "dumb bombs" to precision munitions, 500-lb warheads and bomb fuzes.
What they're saying: One source familiar with the arms sale said the State Department told Congress the deal is aimed at "supporting Israel's long-term security by resupplying stocks of critical munitions and air defense capabilities."

  • "The President has made clear Israel has a right to defend its citizens, consistent with international law and international humanitarian law, and to deter aggression from Iran and its proxy organizations. We will continue to provide the capabilities necessary for Israel's defense," a U.S. official said.
 
LOL

So just to recap ferball 's positions;

1) The Americans are actually responsible for Yanukovych, the pro-Russian puppet, being elected President.
2) He wasn't pro-Russian anyway.
3) Free trade is bad.
4) Because Ukraine is not one homogenous voting bloc, the will of the majority doesn't matter.
5) Russia and Ukraine signing a lease for Russia's Black Sea naval base is also somehow the fault of America.
6) Ukraine has no claim over Crimea anyway because the USSR ceded it to Ukraine 71 years ago, so Russia is within their rights to take it back.
7) Crimea used to be part of Russia in the middle ages therefore it should always be Russian (I guess the Byzantine, Roman, Mongol, and Khazanite empires don't apply though?).
8) Crimea wanted to be independent but weren't successful but therefore it's okay that Russia annexed them because... reasons?
9) Israel is "more expansionist" than Russia despite Russia taking over geographical territory that dwarfs the entirety of Israel, Palestine, Southern Syria and Lebanon, and has a population greater than the entirety of Israel again. But those expansionist land grabs don't count, obviously

Hahahahahaha.

You are an unserious person, ferball. I can't put it more succinctly than that. Your positions are laughably pro-Russian and yet you sit there and deny your tankie identity. It's hilarious.
 
Yeah the Democrats are far more harsh on Israel…..

Biden notifies congress of $8Billion arms sale to Israel…


Another example of Val not reading the article before linking.

1735981038004.png
 
Hey good news for the Blue States in the US; ferball says that because they didn't vote for Trump, they're allowed to secede!

I'm letting Canada know that they should invade New York now.
 

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Play Nice Random Chat Thread VII

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