Opinion Rank these players in order from 1-6: Gary Ablett Jnr, Nathan Buckley,James Hird, Chris Judd, Dustin Martin, Michael Voss

[Scritchyscroony]

5 of those players have a really big B&F discrepancy to the 6th player.

Yeah and I rate bnf's above AA too. Clubs know who their best players were.

 

[JackOutback]

I may be the only Carlton fan to ever say this but IMO Judd is vastly over rated in these conversations.. People draw back to his time at West Coast as peak Judd, when he was at WC he wasn’t half the player Ben Cousins was..

That's... not true.

Cousins was a gun and is vastly underrated because of his issues but to suggest he was twice the player Judd is seems fanciful at best.

Also, you can't criticise Judd for not taking three number 1 draft picks to higher than fifth on the ladder when those three number 1 draft picks simply didn't live up to expectations.

 

[caveman72]

That's... not true.

Cousins was a gun and is vastly underrated because of his issues but to suggest he was twice the player Judd is seems fanciful at best.

Also, you can't criticise Judd for not taking three number 1 draft picks to higher than fifth on the ladder when those three number 1 draft picks simply didn't live up to expectations.

One wonders what Cousins would have turned out like if he chose the father son route

 

[Cleansweep17]

Interesting. Even if you included NS's Martin is not top 5

And Gary Ayres awards?

Both those and norm smiths are superior to some random B&F.

 

[Fadge]

Interesting. Even if you included NS's Martin is not top 5

There's a reason I said Martin shouldn't even be in this poll.

 

[Mr Meow]

And Gary Ayres awards?

Both those and norm smiths are superior to some random B&F.

No other player was eligible for Ayres awards in their prime. Ablett was as a 33-35 year old forward pocket.

 

[Fadge]

No other player was eligible for Ayres awards in their prime. Ablett was as a 33-35 year old forward pocket.

Typical Falcon.

Let's consider an award that has only been available since 2016, so not relevant to every player listed (apart from Ablett's twilight years), and ignore 'random B&F's', an award that every player in the league is eligible for...

 

[Sttew]

And Gary Ayres awards?

Both those and norm smiths are superior to some random B&F.

Garbage. Like the Brownlow, AA, & B&F's, the NS and Ayres medal (first introduced in 2016, YES, 2016!!) are just another measure. Given how few players can be eligible for the NS and Ayres, you'd have to say they should rate lower than awards open to all players like the AA and Brownlow.

Note we haven't even thrown in the AFLPA and MVP awards into the fray

 

[caveman72]

Garbage. Like the Brownlow, AA, & B&F's, the NS and Ayres medal (first introduced in 2016, YES, 2016!!) are just another measure. Given how few players can be eligible for the NS and Ayres, you'd have to say they should rate lower than awards open to all players like the AA and Brownlow.

Note we haven't even thrown in the AFLPA and MVP awards into the fray

Come on we all know in the world of Falcon Dusty is bigger than Ben Hur

 

[WilloTree]

Ablett
Judd
Buckley
Voss
Hird
Martin

 

[caveman72]

Yeah and I rate bnf's above AA too. Clubs know who their best players were.

Few Brownlow Medalists who didn't win their B/F that year just like a few Norm Smith winners you wouldn't rate as superstars of the game but played a blinder on the day

 

[Cleansweep17]

No other player was eligible for Ayres awards in their prime. Ablett was as a 33-35 year old forward pocket.

For the 100th time. Just because the award wasn’t around doesn’t mean being the best finals player wasn’t possible.

And it’s pretty rich that 4 of Gary’s junk B&Fs from Gold Coast against 18 year olds are even being counted. Yeah defs as valuable as a NS

 

[Cleansweep17]

Garbage. Like the Brownlow, AA, & B&F's, the NS and Ayres medal (first introduced in 2016, YES, 2016!!) are just another measure. Given how few players can be eligible for the NS and Ayres, you'd have to say they should rate lower than awards open to all players like the AA and Brownlow.

Note we haven't even thrown in the AFLPA and MVP awards into the fray

Nah the rest are legit. Considering GAS only got 1 B&F I’m surprised you’ve taken this point of view. Most of them are junk like the ones at GC

 

[Fadge]

For the 100th time. Just because the award wasn’t around doesn’t mean being the best finals player wasn’t possible.

Looking forward to you giving us the top 3 players in each of the finals series between 2007 and 2010, after you've actually watched the games...

 

[PhatBoy]

For the 100th time. Just because the award wasn’t around doesn’t mean being the best finals player wasn’t possible.

And it’s pretty rich that 4 of Gary’s junk B&Fs from Gold Coast against 18 year olds are even being counted. Yeah defs as valuable as a NS

Yeah well having won B and Fs during his only two premierships I’m not sure what else he was supposed to do. Take a job in the Suns recruitment office perhaps and somehow squeeze 18 Cats, Pies and Swans flag players under the cap and win B and Fs up there instead?

What should he have done mate? Invented a higher club honour and won that instead?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Looking forward to you giving us the top 3 players in each of the finals series between 2007 and 2010, after you've actually watched the games...

Honest question would you prefer 4 B&Fs at Gold Coast against 18 year olds like GAJ or a NS in a winning GF?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yeah well having won B and Fs during his only two premierships I’m not sure what else he was supposed to do. Take a job in the Suns recruitment office perhaps and somehow squeeze 18 Cats, Pies and Swans flag players under the cap and win B and Fs up there instead?

What should he have done mate? Invented a higher club honour and won that instead?

I’ll ask you the same thing as Fadge.

Would you prefer GAJ’s 4 B&Fs at Gold Coast or a NS in a winning GF?

Because the tally that was just talked about equated them as the same or excluded NS’s altogether. That’s how twisted your guys mindsets are.

 

[Fadge]

Honest question would you prefer 4 B&Fs at Gold Coast against 18 year olds like GAJ or a NS in a winning GF?

But it wasn't simply 4 b&f's at Gold Coast, was it?

He also won an additional Brownlow and 2 x AFLPA MVP's, and was in the box seat for another clean sweep of all individual awards in 2014.

He is the best midfielder I've seen play the game. Comfortably.

 

[Fadge]

Because the tally that was just talked about equated them as the same or excluded NS’s altogether. That’s how twisted your guys mindsets are.

It also excluded AFLCA Coaches Awards and AFLPA MVP Awards.

Martin is not in the same conversation as these guys.

 

[Cleansweep17]

But it wasn't simply 4 b&f's at Gold Coast, was it?

He also won an additional Brownlow and 2 x AFLPA MVP's, and was in the box seat for another clean sweep of all individual awards in 2014.

He is the best midfielder I've seen play the game. Comfortably.

I asked the question because the tally you just agreed to made them the equivalent or excluded them altogether.

And most people would pick a NS in a winning GF over all of GAJs at the GC. They ultimately meant nothing.

And have another go at answering this question instead of dodging it like a coward. 4 B&Fs at GC or a NS?

 

[PhatBoy]

I’ll ask you the same thing as Fadge.

Would you prefer GAJ’s 4 B&Fs at Gold Coast or a NS in a winning GF?

Because the tally that was just talked about equated them as the same or excluded NS’s altogether. That’s how twisted your guys mindsets are.

One is a trinket that reflects a good performance in one game. One is a reflection of basically 100 games worth of quality. And yes, those 100 games were played largely with pretty inexperienced, past it or just not especially gifted teammates so they unquestionably don’t carry the same weight as, say, a best and fairest award with a flag team.

But equally no one is going to look at Isaac Smith and go ‘well he won a norm smith so he would be better than Ablett’s four best and fairests at the Suns.’

For all your bluster about them, and as nice as they are, norm smith medals are still just one game.

They’re still just VVS Laxman standing taller than Rahul Dravid and Sachin Tendulkar in the really vital moments but overall not being a better batsman.

They’re still Travis Head having a wonderful last 12 months in the world test championship and World Cup final and the first test against the West Indies when no one else scored runs, but overall being inferior to a lot of his teammates.

They’re still Brad Clyde winning Clive Churchill medals and being a great player himself but not nearly as good as Laurie Daley or Mal Meninga over a long career

 

[Cleansweep17]

One is a trinket that reflects a good performance in one game. One is a reflection of basically 100 games worth of quality. And yes, those 100 games were played largely with pretty inexperienced, past it or just not especially gifted teammates so they unquestionably don’t carry the same weight as, say, a best and fairest award with a flag team.

But equally no one is going to look at Isaac Smith and go ‘well he won a norm smith so he would be better than Ablett’s four best and fairests at the Suns.’

For all your bluster about them, and as nice as they are, norm smith medals are still just one game.

They’re still just VVS Laxman standing taller than Rahul Dravid and Sachin Tendulkar in the really vital moments but overall not being a better batsman.

They’re still Travis Head having a wonderful last 12 months in the world test championship and World Cup final and the first test against the West Indies when no one else scored runs, but overall being inferior to a lot of his teammates.

They’re still Brad Clyde winning Clive Churchill medals and being a great player himself but not nearly as good as Laurie Daley or Mal Meninga over a long career

So what is your answer what would you prefer? This question is in response to the legitimacy of the previous tally not about who is better which is what the other morons are using it for.

 

[Fadge]

I asked the question because the tally you just agreed to made them the equivalent or excluded them altogether.

And most people would pick a NS in a winning GF over all of GAJs at the GC. They ultimately meant nothing.

And have another go at answering this question instead of dodging it like a coward. 4 B&Fs at GC or a NS?

When you're comparing based on who was the better player, 4 x club best and fairests, anywhere, is vastly superior to a Norm Smith Medal.

Now you can answer the question that's been put to you, by multiple posters:
Name your top 3 players across each of the finals series between 2007 and 2010.

Or are you a coward?

 

[Cleansweep17]

When you're comparing based on who was the better player, 4 x club best and fairests, anywhere, is vastly superior to a Norm Smith Medal.

Now you can answer the question that's been put to you, by multiple posters:
Name your top 3 players across each of the finals series between 2007 and 2010.

Or are you a coward?

I’m saying this in regards to the legitimacy of the tally you just agreed to not who is better. You are the ones who are using it to decide who is better not me.

I said give me the weekend to watch the replays to decide the 07-10 finals. Learn to read.

 

[Fadge]

I’m saying this in regards to the legitimacy of the tally you just agreed to not who is better. You are the ones who are using it to decide who is better not me.

I said give me the weekend to watch the replays to decide the 07-10 finals. Learn to read.

Good.

Now answer the question that's been asked of you.

After all, you've stated GAJ was a 'finals flop'. So surely he can't have been anywhere near the top 3 finals performers in any season between 2007 and 2010?

Go.