Preview Rd 21, 2014 - Brisbane Lions vs Collingwood

[Last of the Roys]

^^ It's not imperative we win,there are other elements at play.Call it what you want but we are preparing for next season,the big picture as it were.

Yeah, I think most people understand that. But at the same time most supporters want to be able to go to a game thinking their side should at least be fairly competitive. It is kind of hard after a 100 point loss at home to feel that this week, especially given the lack of changes.

Nevertheless I definitely will be going along. We only have 5 matches in Melbourne this year, with this being the last one. Thank god it is at least not forecast to rain.

I am already getting over being flat from the selection. What I really want to see is our side go out there and put in 100% effort - especially in the first half. I want to see us concentrate on tackling and defense and see where that leads us. We have to show that the last quarter last week (in particular) was completely unacceptable regardless of who is in the team.

I still don't think we are any real chance of winning, but we need to show we can't be walked over.

 

[Dylan12]

I actually don't know who you could be referring to? I don't know of anyone who has been "shit week after week all year", or to which double standards you might be claiming. Seems a bit harsh.

The only one that potentially springs to mind is Merrett, and I think that largely depends on your understanding of his role within the team. I don't rate him as a goalkicker, but I don't think that's what he's there for. It seems to be he is picked to:
(a) create a contest, at best taking a mark or at least spilling the ball for the rovers to access
(b) provide leadership, as an experienced player amidst a bunch of younguns (Freeman, Paine, Close), especially in regards to positioning for marks/around stoppages. This is a severely underrated contribution IMHO
(c) provide a chop out to our ruckmen, to enable them to have a break. As good as Martin has been (and West before him) at filling the giant hole left by Leuy, having Maguire and Merrett to help take some of the ruck contests is important to the resilience of the ruck position
(d) although I've not seen it utilised, I dare say there is a least a thought that if there's an injury to a KPD, Merrett could be swung down there, or drift down there late in a close game to demonstrate The Spoil (for which he is best known) if required.

That's my understanding of his role within the team, and based on that, personally I'd give him an A to A+. If he happens to kick a few while he's there, great. And yes, I cringe like everyone does when he has a shot (that potentially a teammate with a better kick could take) that heads way offline. But I think you have to be realistic about what the coaches are asking/expecting from him.

Wow, the bar is set incredibly low if you're giving Merrett an A to A+ for his 2014 form. For mine it is a resounding F considering the guy has played 10+ years and over 150 games, but in response to your points:

(a) if marking isn't a priority, any tall on our list could fulfil that requirement;
(b) not sure someone that has played 10+ years and over 150 games and would be lucky to average half a dozen possessions and not even a goal a game could be considered as someone offering any leadership whatsoever;
(c) I'm not sure Merrett has been thrown in the ruck as much as you're suggesting and to be honest, I'd have thought coach Leppitsch would have thrown him in even more just so he could get him into the game; and
(d) I'm not sure Merrett could replace any of Maguire, Clarke, Patfull and Gardiner if form was being used as a guide. Every time Merrett has been thrown in the defensive unit this year, he has been a train wreck, last week as the prime example.

Based on your summary of what is required of Merrett, it is no wonder we're in the position we are, but hey, what is the point of a key position forward actually hitting the scoreboard occasionally.

 

[ninja_lion]

I still don't think we are any real chance of winning, but we need to show we can't be walked over.

I thought that when I trudged along to the North Melb game earlier this year, and was thoroughly satisfied with the outcome! Here's to hoping you get to enjoy the same experience...

 

[snooplions]

Blasphemy. Bewick to play on Beams

Even more Blasphemy! Beams to play on Beams.

 

[ninja_lion]

Wow, the bar is set incredibly low if you're giving Merrett an A to A+ for his 2014 form. For mine it is a resounding F considering the guy has played 10+ years and over 150 games, but in response to your points:

(a) if marking isn't a priority, any tall on our list could fulfil that requirement;
(b) not sure someone that has played 10+ years and over 150 games and would be lucky to average half a dozen possessions and not even a goal a game could be considered as someone offering any leadership whatsoever;
(c) I'm not sure Merrett has been thrown in the ruck as much as you're suggesting and to be honest, I'd have thought coach Leppitsch would have thrown him in even more just so he could get him into the game; and
(d) I'm not sure Merrett could replace any of Maguire, Clarke, Patfull and Gardiner if form was being used as a guide. Every time Merrett has been thrown in the defensive unit this year, he has been a train wreck, last week as the prime example.

Based on your summary of what is required of Merrett, it is no wonder we're in the position we are, but hey, what is the point of a key position forward actually hitting the scoreboard occasionally.

As far as the position of KPF is concerned, the bar (as I've described) is set low as we don't currently have any better options on our list. That's unfortunate, but not Merrett's fault. Given that, I don't think the bar for his contribution is set low at all, based on what I outlined.

(a) any tall on our list could fulfil that requirement. They have chosen Merrett as that tall, which is allowing our young KPDs to develop (as we have a few up to scratch, which sadly can't be said at this stage about our KPFs). Is there an alternate, in form, experienced KPF being overlooked who is a better option that I am unaware of?
(b) Merrett's experience (or 90% of it) is as a KPD, so quoting number of games/years played is pretty irrelevant I'd have thought when considering his exposure as a forward. Leadership is about a lot more than just possessions
(c) I wasn't suggesting he'd spent heaps of time there, it is more that he is capable of doing it for 3-4 mins per quarter if necessary to allow Martin (or whoever) to get off and get treatment/rubdown etc then get back on. The ability to do it is more important than the time spent doing it, if you catch my drift. I agree it could have been done more, but is that robbing Martin of valuable (quality) time there? If so, not sure what the point would be...
(d) As you've said "every time Merrett has been thrown in the defensive unit"...it hasn't happened much, and when it has, it's when we're already getting smashed so I think it's a bit much to expect he can totally turn the tide all off his own back. And putting him there for 10 mins when he's played all year up forward but still expecting him to be in the form he displayed when spending all year there is unrealistic. It's still a useful option though. I'm not suggesting you drop any of those players to put him in, more that he could cover their role better than most should they be injured in Q1

Edit: so it is Merrett exclusively you were speaking of when referring to "double standards" then? I don't think we have another similar player to replace him with, whereas with Robbo, Beams is clearly a similar player who potentially offers more for this week. I hardly think the two are comparable

 

[Dylan12]

As far as the position of KPF is concerned, the bar (as I've described) is set low as we don't currently have any better options on our list. That's unfortunate, but not Merrett's fault. Given that, I don't think the bar for his contribution is set low at all, based on what I outlined.

(a) any tall on our list could fulfil that requirement. They have chosen Merrett as that tall, which is allowing our young KPDs to develop (as we have a few up to scratch, which sadly can't be said at this stage about our KPFs). Is there an alternate, in form, experienced KPF being overlooked who is a better option that I am unaware of?
(b) Merrett's experience (or 90% of it) is as a KPD, so quoting number of games/years played is pretty irrelevant I'd have thought when considering his exposure as a forward. Leadership is about a lot more than just possessions
(c) I wasn't suggesting he'd spent heaps of time there, it is more that he is capable of doing it for 3-4 mins per quarter if necessary to allow Martin (or whoever) to get off and get treatment/rubdown etc then get back on. The ability to do it is more important than the time spent doing it, if you catch my drift. I agree it could have been done more, but is that robbing Martin of valuable (quality) time there? If so, not sure what the point would be...
(d) As you've said "every time Merrett has been thrown in the defensive unit"...it hasn't happened much, and when it has, it's when we're already getting smashed so I think it's a bit much to expect he can totally turn the tide all off his own back. And putting him there for 10 mins when he's played all year up forward but still expecting him to be in the form he displayed when spending all year there is unrealistic. It's still a useful option though. I'm not suggesting you drop any of those players to put him in, more that he could cover their role better than most should they be injured in Q1

We have quite a few other options on our list that would certainly do not worse than what Merrett has come up with, including McGrath as a smaller mobile forward, Lisle and / or Paine. They may not be in "form" as you've alluded, but I don't recall ever in my life recall a player so "out of form" being persisted with.

If we're talking leadership, then his age, number of games etc. is very relevant and he should be leading by example; I'm not sure that is entirely the case when he tried taking Swallow and Pedersen's head off.

Either way, there are double standards at play particularly when there are other options available.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

We have quite a few other options on our list that would certainly do not worse than what Merrett has come up with, including McGrath as a smaller mobile forward, Lisle and / or Paine. They may not be in "form" as you've alluded, but I don't recall ever in my life recall a player so "out of form" being persisted with.

2 out of those 3 are out of contract next year and would be on shaky ground. Much point playing them?

 

[lions27]

I don't think that Beams replacing Robbo has improved the team a great deal if at all.
Robbo was full of running last week and although he had some clangers I thought he showed a bit.
Beams has not done a great deal in most of the games that he has played this year- he is barely sighted after half time due to a lack of match fitness. I know he has a good kick and can kick a goal but he just has not been good enough for long enough IMO.

 

[ninja_lion]

We have quite a few other options on our list that would certainly do not worse than what Merrett has come up with, including McGrath as a smaller mobile forward, Lisle and / or Paine. They may not be in "form" as you've alluded, but I don't recall ever in my life recall a player so "out of form" being persisted with.

If we're talking leadership, then his age, number of games etc. is very relevant and he should be leading by example; I'm not sure that is entirely the case when he tried taking Swallow and Pedersen's head off.

Either way, there are double standards at play particularly when there are other options available.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Lisle has been given quite a few chances to show what he's got to cement a spot in the team, and failed to do so. IMO, he is the equivalent to Merrett in terms of disposals/goals output but doesn't offer as much with onfield leadership/experience to those around him. I'd like to see Paine given more opportunity, but I think he plays a half-forward flank (when he has more of a tank) than the gorilla forward type role. McGrath has been injured AFAIK, so the team looking for consistency isn't going to turn to him unfortunately. Also, see comments re Paine on the type of role played.

I guess what I'm disagreeing with is more the double standard at selection aspect, as to me that insinuates an aspect of obvious "unfairness", which I just don't see. FWIW, I think Robbo is unlucky and could well have been afforded to opportunity to redeem himself (as the others have been given), but I see Beams as part of our best 22 (edit: agree with poster above re match fitness tho) and Robbo as fringe (at this point in his career) so I don't think it's grossly unfair. Having said all of that, I was baffled last year when Polkinghorne got game after game whilst not offering much (IMHO) so I do understand that feeling of confusion re team selection at times haha

 

[John_Proctor]

re: Robbo - in the reserves write ups for the last month the coaches have often said 'Robbo gets a lot of the ball but needs to work on his defensive game'. In the week before he was elevated to seniors the review mentioned he'd had a good game defensively as well. Maybe in the video review they noted he didn't do the defensive running they'd been teaching him in the reserves so he was dropped again.

I'm not going to get into the merits of the Merritt debate but it is clear, and Leppitsch has stated, that he is in the team to play a role as an experienced player and mature body in the forward 50, crash packs and bring others into the game. Whatever KPI's Leppa has for that role he obviously believes Merritt is doing it well enough or that noone else could do it better.

One thing that "The Recruit" has taught me about the game is that the fitness manager (its Burgess from Port on the show I think?) is tracking so many aspects of the on field performance of players. There is so much data (actually IP) there that we will never get to see and never be able to understand. I assume Brett Burton is looking at that same data and picking up 3 or 4 key stats for Merritt (or any other player) - one of the stats they mentioned a few weeks ago on The Recruit was simply called "Collisions" and the way it was discussed in the context of the match they were watching referred to it as an indicator of the physicality of a player. Merritt might be the 'number 1 collision player in the competition' for all we know...

 

[Tassie4ever]

re: Robbo - in the reserves write ups for the last month the coaches have often said 'Robbo gets a lot of the ball but needs to work on his defensive game'. In the week before he was elevated to seniors the review mentioned he'd had a good game defensively as well. Maybe in the video review they noted he didn't do the defensive running they'd been teaching him in the reserves so he was dropped again.

I'm not going to get into the merits of the Merritt debate but it is clear, and Leppitsch has stated, that he is in the team to play a role as an experienced player and mature body in the forward 50, crash packs and bring others into the game. Whatever KPI's Leppa has for that role he obviously believes Merritt is doing it well enough or that noone else could do it better.

One thing that "The Recruit" has taught me about the game is that the fitness manager (its Burgess from Port on the show I think?) is tracking so many aspects of the on field performance of players. There is so much data (actually IP) there that we will never get to see and never be able to understand. I assume Brett Burton is looking at that same data and picking up 3 or 4 key stats for Merritt (or any other player) - one of the stats they mentioned a few weeks ago on The Recruit was simply called "Collisions" and the way it was discussed in the context of the match they were watching referred to it as an indicator of the physicality of a player. Merritt might be the 'number 1 collision player in the competition' for all we know...

Call me totally out of touch, but I really don't think that "IP" matters any where near as much as actual relative scores on the board. Pretty simple way to measure success really. What's more, it's the way everyone else in the competition measures success as well.

Without wishing to get personal, anyone who gives Merrett a pass mark or better for his work this year is seriously deluded, no matter his contribution to "collisions" etc. Just for a start, in the increasingly rare event he actually gets a kick near goal, his kicking lately has been abysmal. The sad reality is that he is in the team only because there is no viable replacement.

 

[snooplions]

Call me totally out of touch, but I really don't think that "IP" matters any where near as much as actual relative scores on the board. Pretty simple way to measure success really. What's more, it's the way everyone else in the competition measures success as well.

Without wishing to get personal, anyone who gives Merrett a pass mark or better for his work this year is seriously deluded, no matter his contribution to "collisions" etc. Just for a start, in the increasingly rare event he actually gets a kick near goal, his kicking lately has been abysmal. The sad reality is that he is in the team only because there is no viable replacement.

After effects of the retirement of Jonathan Brown. So desperate for a big presence that we keep an out of form and generally ineffective big body in the forward line and team where he's only ever mentioned when he knocks someone's head off. Got to give it time, maybe Merrett can use the pre-season to get his running patterns and mind set right? Can only hope so.

 

[ninja_lion]

Without wishing to get personal, anyone who gives Merrett a pass mark or better for his work this year is seriously deluded, no matter his contribution to "collisions" etc. Just for a start, in the increasingly rare event he actually gets a kick near goal, his kicking lately has been abysmal. The sad reality is that he is in the team only because there is no viable replacement.

So it would be better if Lisle was playing that role ineffectively? If we agree that the sad reality is because there is no one better to play that role, then isn't that a pass if he's playing it as well as he can and there's no one better? I would much rather see him at full back, and I reckon he'd much rather be there himself, but he is instead playing a role the team is asking him to play because we have no one else.

If you don't want to make it personal, perhaps labelling people as "deluded" is a bit strong, just because they happen to have an alternate opinion to yourself Just a thought...

 

[Skoob]

We have quite a few other options on our list that would certainly do not worse than what Merrett has come up with, including McGrath as a smaller mobile forward, Lisle and / or Paine. They may not be in "form" as you've alluded, but I don't recall ever in my life recall a player so "out of form" being persisted with.

If we're talking leadership, then his age, number of games etc. is very relevant and he should be leading by example; I'm not sure that is entirely the case when he tried taking Swallow and Pedersen's head off.

Either way, there are double standards at play particularly when there are other options available.

Without wanting to sound like a Lisle basher, he could not, would not even come close to providing the same contest or presence as Merrett.
As for Paine, he has had a fitness interrupted pre-season and season, and would probably offer a similar alternative as Lisle.
So which next tall on our list could offer the same? Michael? Nope. Freeman? Nope.
You're wrong on this one, just wrong.

 

[patfullfankezz]

We can blather about this for years, unfortunately for better or for worse Lisle is gone and Dan is staying in the role.

I will admit I'd love to see Jordy have one last go, and I'd like to see Merrett rested for the rest of the season (mainly for his confidence and health), but it's never going to happen, so we need to move on from it. There's only three games left in the season anyway, what's the point of getting upset about team selection NOW?

 

[whatboutbob]

Has anyone offered you a very warm welcome to our board yet, ninja_lion ?

 

[Skoob]

Has anyone offered you a very warm welcome to our board yet, ninja_lion ?

First posts were a month ago, someone would have got around to it shortly.


Welcome BTW ninja_lion

 

[John]

Welcome to our c̶l̶i̶q̶u̶e̶ board ninja_lion

 

[ninja_lion]

Has anyone offered you a very warm welcome to our board yet, ninja_lion ?

Many thanks, whatboutbob and Skoob - I've always felt welcome here just more of a reader. I visit bigfooty most days and read as much as I can. Have decided that when work permits, I should try and get a bit more involved. Have felt welcome since my first post

 

[Sausages]

As far as Rog goes, my approach is more practical - keep him to within a 30-35m arc around goals. Use our more mobile, raw-boned youngsters to run about and be stupid at half-fwd. Green to hunt off whichever forward is contesting in his area.

 

[James North]

Yes, welcome ninja_lion - looking forward to more of your posts.

 

[carnthemlions]

Lilse= gone. Nuff said.
Paine= 3rd tall who plays as an undersized FF- no tank, little agility/ speed. Needs to drastically improve one or both to be a viable option at senior level.

I actually don't know who you could be referring to? I don't know of anyone who has been "shit week after week all year", or to which double standards you might be claiming. Seems a bit harsh.

The only one that potentially springs to mind is Merrett, and I think that largely depends on your understanding of his role within the team. I don't rate him as a goalkicker, but I don't think that's what he's there for. It seems to be he is picked to:
(a) create a contest, at best taking a mark or at least spilling the ball for the rovers to access
(b) provide leadership, as an experienced player amidst a bunch of younguns (Freeman, Paine, Close), especially in regards to positioning for marks/around stoppages. This is a severely underrated contribution IMHO
(c) provide a chop out to our ruckmen, to enable them to have a break. As good as Martin has been (and West before him) at filling the giant hole left by Leuy, having Maguire and Merrett to help take some of the ruck contests is important to the resilience of the ruck position
(d) although I've not seen it utilised, I dare say there is a least a thought that if there's an injury to a KPD, Merrett could be swung down there, or drift down there late in a close game to demonstrate The Spoil (for which he is best known) if required.

That's my understanding of his role within the team, and based on that, personally I'd give him an A to A+. If he happens to kick a few while he's there, great. And yes, I cringe like everyone does when he has a shot (that potentially a teammate with a better kick could take) that heads way offline. But I think you have to be realistic about what the coaches are asking/expecting from him.

I like the cut of your jib sir.
I've said a similar thing a couple of times, but the fact that it's DANIEL MERRETT apparently invalidates any rational argument being made.
Or something like that.

Basically, it's like having a bigger version of Tyson Goldsack at full forward. It's far from ideal, but it's all we've got.

 

[James North]

Pretending we have awesome forwards and expecting incredible results from them is fraught with emotional danger.

 

[Dylan12]

Without wanting to sound like a Lisle basher, he could not, would not even come close to providing the same contest or presence as Merrett.
As for Paine, he has had a fitness interrupted pre-season and season, and would probably offer a similar alternative as Lisle.
So which next tall on our list could offer the same? Michael? Nope. Freeman? Nope.
You're wrong on this one, just wrong.

And what contest is it that Merrett provides that others wouldn't?

I don't recall the ball being kicked in the air to a contest and Lisle or Michael or any other tall not providing a contest. The amount of times Merrett is being beaten this year, it is staggering that anyone thinks anybody else is completely incapable of providing a contest.

Hell, why do we even necessarily need a tall to play deep forward. McGrath has been perfectly capable in the role and there are many examples over the years of smaller forward lines being very effective.

Gobsmacked that anyone can honestly be satisfied with Merrett's performance this year or even justify his inclusion in the team. I'm pretty lost as to why all the Merrett supporters didn't argue this hard for Aaron Cornelius when he showed a lot more than Merrett ever has in the forward line. Bizarre.

 

[James North]

Gobsmacked that anyone can honestly be satisfied with Merrett's performance this year or even justify his inclusion in the team. I'm pretty lost as to why all the Merrett supporters didn't argue this hard for Aaron Cornelius when he showed a lot more than Merrett ever has in the forward line. Bizarre.

The fault is really in expecting too much, I think.

I'm not quite sure you're accurately aware of how Lisle and Michael compete in the NEAFL. The answer is: occasionally.