List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Googstar]

Rebuild or refresh.....really the same things nowadays. At the end of every season, every club will refresh their list. Players are delisted and other players are brought in via the draft or trade. Most clubs seem to refresh their list by at least 5 players each year. After 4 seasons, that is half your list which to me takes us to a rebuild. In otherwords, we refresh our list each year adding layer upon layer until after 3, 4 or maybe 5 seasons we have rebuilt our list.

Even though we have had a partially successful season (yeah I know it was bloody frustrating) we have Edwards, Caddy, Lambert and Parker retired. I'm sure our list management team are looking closely at Georgy, Aarts, RCD, Mansell & Martyn. That is a minimum of 4 and more likely 6 changes. We have already added Colina and Bauer during the season. So that means we have refreshed our list by 6 or maybe as many as 8 players (ie. nearly 20% of our playing list) in one season.

Likewise, you can refresh your list from within. Professional sportsmen should keep developing their strength, stamina and skills each year. Dow, Gibcus, Brown, Ryan, Cumberland, Sonsie, Banks, Clarke, Ralphsmith, Nyoun, Rioli jnr now get another longer pre-season. Furthermore, given the retirements/pending delistings, they have extra incentive knowing there are spots available IF they do the hard work required.

Added to that, you can improve your list with positional changes. Daniel Rioli

17

Daniel Rioli

Age

27

Ht

179cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.2

3star

K

5.8

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.7

3star

T

3.2

5star

MG

179.2

3star

D

8.1

2star

K

4.9

2star

HB

3.3

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.6

4star

MG

144.9

3star

D

9.0

3star

K

3.8

2star

HB

5.2

4star

M

0.8

1star

T

3.8

5star

MG

160.2

3star

went from arguably an underperforming small forward to an AA level half back. Miller went from a back up full back to a more than handy second ruck. What will the club do over this summer? Mansell and Stack are IMO the two players we need to invest some time into. Can Mansell become a permanent backman, freeing Baker to move into the midfield or permanent forward. We all know Stacky's talent but we don't seem to know where to play him. IMO our 2 biggest list concerns (assuming our midfield is addressed) are ruck and a second key forward. Can Nyoun fill one of those gaps? Can we develop a tagger to at least give Dimma the option on matchday? If so who; Dow, Banks, Ralphy or Mansell maybe.

Sorry for the long post but it is a fascinating topic. It is arguably the hardest thing to get right because everyone has different opinions. It will be interesting to watch what some of the other clubs do. Will the Kangas go for a full on cull? Will the Pies jettison Grundy and/or Degoey? Refresh or rebuild hopefully our list is better in 2023 than it was in 2022.

 

[db26]

Short won a b and f in a premiership year as a rebounding half back

There is definitely room to fit him back down there
Rioli replaced Houli
Houli and short were a great combo and it worked fine at the start of the year

Baker/Houli/Short/Vlastuin all fit down back in the 2019/2020 flags so I think it can work again next year

Just need to find some mids as Short needs to play down back
The lack of drive Thursday night was evident

The lack of drive was because Fagan did his homework on Rioli. You got a kid like Banks waiting in the wings that's why his trade bait. 2019 he was good , but that's gone have to make a few hard calls simple as that.

 

[Mr Magic]

I said this all along with Short. Very few AFL footballers transition into the midfield if they didn't play that position as a junior. You need to play that position all the way though your junior footy to have midfielder instincts that are honed by thousands of game-day centre bounce attendances. Short doesn't look a natural midfielder to my eyes and I don't think he can learn the position in the AFL. His defensive work at the clearance is always going to be a problem.

I'm not sure I'd trade Short, simply because he doesn't have that much trade currency. We've felt tall all year in the backline though, so I'm fine with Short, Rioli and Baker all playing in our back 7. It means Gibcus spends a year building strength and confidence in the VFL and letting him fight it out with Biggie as the replacement for Tarrant.

I do not think thats the answer.

For me Gibcus keeps getting games in the ones. Balta plays every game he can in the ones mainly as a backman and the two develop synergy. I think Rioli has enough credits to keep playing in the backline. From there a combination of Broad, Grimes and Tarrant miss a week here and there, Short might miss a week or get shifted likewise Baker and Brown, Banks and others get a run, Stack is another.

For me our forward line is almost set. WE are kicking good scores, scoring is not the problem. Our problem is midfield and backline and part of it is defensive to. Prestia going down does not help either. We need more physical, younger stronger players that can compete and defend.

Our main issue is a inability to defend at times

MRJ is a bit if a wildcard. He has speed, but he also has power and strength. If he can get more of a tank and help in the midfield it could be a game changer but no pressure because he is a hell of a problem for oppositions up forward anyway

 

[Falcon3518]

Going to the draft to pick up quality gun mids but there is only 1 problem , We dont have a top 5 pick
its pick 11/12 and will be speculative similar to Dow , RCD etc and will take 2-4 years to get ready and we have lost 3-4 senior players that rotate through the mid.

We need 2 ready made mids to remain up and the kids to continue their development

100% which is why I’m stressing over our next KPF after Jack. I want to trade somebody in like Fogarty soon instead of drafting. Shame he won’t be going anywhere.


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[Mr Magic]

100% which is why I’m stressing over our next KPF after Jack. I want to trade somebody in like Fogarty soon instead of drafting. Shame he won’t be going anywhere.


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Not stressed in the slightest, Lynch not going anyway, JR still playing and we have plenty of other options. Miller is still developing as a second ruck/hybrid to.

If we can even get Dusty back to 90 percent it will make a bigger difference than anything

 

[Mr Magic]

Going to the draft to pick up quality gun mids but there is only 1 problem , We dont have a top 5 pick
its pick 11/12 and will be speculative similar to Dow , RCD etc and will take 2-4 years to get ready and we have lost 3-4 senior players that rotate through the mid.

We need 2 ready made mids to remain up and the kids to continue their development

Nah, will not take that long.

P Dow was a dud, and RCD is 190cm plus which take longer plus his footy IQ is still developing, which is why he has upside

 

[banzai]

Not stressed in the slightest, Lynch not going anyway, JR still playing and we have plenty of other options. Miller is still developing as a second ruck/hybrid to.

If we can even get Dusty back to 90 percent it will make a bigger difference than anything

When Lynch got injured we couldn't even beat North. That 3 week stretch without him cost us top 4 and any chance. JR can definetly not be a number 1 forward anymore, relying on Lynch to play 22 games going forward is extremely risky.

 

[Mr Magic]

When Lynch got injured we couldn't even beat North. That 3 week stretch without him cost us top 4 and any chance. JR can definetly not be a number 1 forward anymore, relying on Lynch to play 22 games going forward is extremely risky.

Our teams are based on Lynch playing so your point is mute I think in terms of allocation to salary cap. I mean if Lynch got no salary cap because he was injured you might have a point.

The other thing it is not just JR, it is Dusty, Cumberland, Bolton, MRJ etc.. not to mention some in the twos

The other thing I would not place too much emphasis on the North game as a sample size

 

[juss]

When do they announce the delistings? It's usually not long after the seasons end.

 

[Football Tragic]

I don't think we'll see too many delisting given the amount of retirements. We've already had 4 retirements but added 2 players. We'll probably see 2 omissions to the list - possibly to Martyn, RCD or Mansell. That would still allow us to bring in Taranto and use 3 draft picks. If our first pick in a 2nd rounder, then 3 will be more than enough.

 

[juss]

Realistically our 2023 isn't going to come down to getting Taranto or not, as he's only 1 good player. It's whether our collective improvement can better our collective losses/ age and decline in form.

The guys that decide if we make top 4 or not next year are if the Sonsie, Miller, Ralphsmith, Ross, MRJ, Gibcus, Stack, Dow, Cumberland, etc. types have breakout years and become bonafide good AFL players week to week.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Can we develop a tagger to at least give Dimma the option on matchday? If so who; Dow, Banks, Ralphy or Mansell maybe.

Castagna must become a tagger of he is to resuscitate his career. We need to add that string to our bow - every other team has one, and we can no longer allow the likes of Neale, Oliver, Walsh etc to dictate matches against us. George fits the profile of the classic tagger, and he has one year left on his contract to make something new of himself or otherwise he's consigned to the VFL for the next 12 months, and then suburban footy from thereon onwards.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Nah, will not take that long.

P Dow was a dud, and RCD is 190cm plus which take longer plus his footy IQ is still developing, which is why he has upside

Thomson Dow

 

[tigerdan]

Some of you guys are overthinking it. Weve got a great crop of youngsters coming through. Taranto will fill a huge gap of he comes to us and it looks like he is coming.

We dont have a top 5 pick so the gun mids will be gone. That's life when you dont tank. I dont think we have the capital to split someone elses pick.

We must draft the best available KPF we can this year. If we end up this time next year with no kpf we are screwed for 2024.

 

[TigerTime88]

Some of you guys are overthinking it. Weve got a great crop of youngsters coming through. Taranto will fill a huge gap of he comes to us and it looks like he is coming.

We dont have a top 5 pick so the gun mids will be gone. That's life when you dont tank. I dont think we have the capital to split someone elses pick.

We must draft the best available KPF we can this year. If we end up this time next year with no kpf we are screwed for 2024.

I think KPF generally have to be taken in the first round and even then the first 10. Outside of Jack at 13 I can’t remember too many KPF guns taken north of pick 10.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Will be interesting mate - it's as much about predicting or at least anticipating the future.
The Jack of now is fine, but who's to say what he'll be like in six months.
You decline and slow down pretty quickly out of season at his age - just look at Edwards. Ordinary season in 2021, nowhere near it in 2022 and carried to the end without any real impact.
People will point to his two last quarter goals as evidence as to why he should go on, but it comes down to more than a few single acts.
He still has the smarts, but he's slowed a lot - and he won't just all of a sudden find a yard of pace next year.

Given we’ve got no KPF’s coming through Jack going again is a no-brainer. Not just from 2 quarters… he kicked 40-goals for the season which it outstanding for a 2nd KPF.

Let’s put it this way … Dan McStay is about to go to the Pies on a long-term deal worth $600k / season. And Chol has been talked up as being a superb recruit for GC and is on $500k, 4-year deal.

Here are their season averages:

Riewoldt / Chol / McStay

Goals: 1.9 / 2.0 / 1.2

I50’s: 3.0 / 1.5 / 2.7

Goal Ass: 0.6 / 0.3 / 0.6

SI’s : 6.0 / 4.8 / 5.3

Tackles : 1.9 / 1.3 / 1.7

Disposals: 11 / 8.4 / 12.1

Marks: 5 / 3.6 / 5.4

Marks I50: 2.6 / 1.8 / 1.4

Metres gained: 247 / 197 / 219

So if you purely looked at stats and not birth certificate you’d say that overall Jack has been clearly superior to both Chol and McStay.

If we had some young KPF needing to get development at senior level I’d consider my options … but there’s no way based on performance Jack should not be offered another year. He had a terrific year.



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[Noidnadroj]

For me Short is trade bait would never have given him a 5 year deal his no midfielder and our back 6 is settled.

With our list demographic the LAST thing you do is trade out quality players in their mid-20’s. Short has suffered a bit from being thrown around, but once Taranto comes in and we’ve got any midfield combo of : TT, Prestia, Cotchin, Martin, Graham, Sonsie, Bolton, Ross and even Dow, Short won’t need to play midfield any more.

Remember, Short went into the midfield during desperate times when we didn’t have a selection of Dusty, Cotch/Prestia (injured), Sonsie (yet to debut), Ross (form/role), Dow (injured), Taranto.

I see Short going back to half back or onto a wing where he can use his assets best. I can’t see him in many centre bounces if any at all in 2023.


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[Noidnadroj]

I agree. If we get Taranto and Hopper I can't see him playing midfield. So where does that leave him?

It leaves him as a B&F winner in a Premiership year playing as a HBF. heck me … Short is a gun. There’s plenty of room for Rioli, Baker and Short in our backline. Or Short could easily be a very damaging wingman depending on oppo.


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[Wooden Robot]

Given we’ve got no KPF’s coming through Jack going again is a no-brainer. Not just from 2 quarters… he kicked 40-goals for the season which it outstanding for a 2nd KPF.

Let’s put it this way … Dan McStay is about to go to the Pies on a long-term deal worth $600k / season. And Chol has been talked up as being a superb recruit for GC and is on $500k, 4-year deal.

Here are their season averages:

Riewoldt / Chol / McStay

Goals: 1.9 / 2.0 / 1.2

I50’s: 3.0 / 1.5 / 2.7

Goal Ass: 0.6 / 0.3 / 0.6

SI’s : 6.0 / 4.8 / 5.3

Tackles : 1.9 / 1.3 / 1.7

Disposals: 11 / 8.4 / 12.1

Marks: 5 / 3.6 / 5.4

Marks I50: 2.6 / 1.8 / 1.4

Metres gained: 247 / 197 / 219

So if you purely looked at stats and not birth certificate you’d say that overall Jack has been clearly superior to both Chol and McStay.

If we had some young KPF needing to get development at senior level I’d consider my options … but there’s no way based on performance Jack should not be offered another year. He had a terrific year.



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Well, if we are not looking at birth certificates, bring back Jimmy Jess to swing between CHB and CHF.
I mention age because he'll be 34 and slowing by the year - it's an issue.
And trust me ... you age quite quickly year by year after 30.
He survived on smarts this year.
I said it all last year when Edwards was so obviously in decline.
Look how it turned out ... wasn't even a shell of his average years this year.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

If we end up with Tarantino & Hopper then our path is clear and NO REBUILD will be happening

Our Defence is fine with all the young talent in
Vlastuin , Short , Rioli , Baker , Mansell , Gibcus , Miller , Biggy , Brown and even Grimes/Broad having another 2-3 years left

Our Midfield will also look very nice
Prestia , Martin , as our older mature mids & Ross , Graham , Taranto , Hopper , Sonsie , Bolton all at good ages

KPF is our only concern and we may hope to get a Free Agent ot 1 of our kids develop



Thing a Renovation is the best way to term it

 

[Marcel Proust]

Look, when we got Gibcus i was really excited at the prospect of a decade backline of he & Balta together. With Tarrant we have used this as a chance to explore Balta forward

The end result is, a ******* mess. We have less clarity over the future of this side as ever. Tarrant and his contract cause us massive headaches now, not because of the bottom line, but because it takes time away from the future becoming clearer

Gibcus (and sonsie) are excellent talents and should be good long term players for the tigers.

I'm still not sure about going the Tarrant route and not bringing in another mature mid; Mitchell. Crouch. Treloar etc. To add to the short term.

We almost had the best of both worlds and made it into week 2 of the finals. Ah well.

Interesting to see the direction the club takes now

 

[tunksy]

Seems the club is all in on refresh

 

[Tonythetiger]

Looking at the elimination final side vs what we would look like with Taranto and Hopper, Edwards goes, Ross maybe goes to sub, Sonsie out and Taranto and Hopper in.

Ross/Sonsie next cab off the rank when injuries hit or if we rest Cotchin. Side is looking pretty good. Also when Jack and Cotchin retire end of next year, our list is looking bloody healthy.

 

[Dr Tigris]

We're now about the best list in the comp, with a heap of young talent as well.

good times

 

[fargothegreat]

With Hopper and Taranto on the way, I thought I'd have a go at building a best 22 of players under 26:

B: Gibcus Balta Nyuon
HB: D.Rioli Stack Baker
C: Banks Taranto Ralphsmith
HF: M.Rioli Bolton Short
F: Bauer Ryan Cumberland
R: Soldo Hopper Sonsie
IC: Mansell Ross Graham Miller
SUB: Clarke

It's a bit light on for key forwards, but that is a bloody good side full of stars and kids with a lot of potential.