Play Nice Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament

[Gethelred]

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group:

(Edited 6 April 2023)

These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around Australia):

"A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?"

As well as that, it will be put to Australians that the constitution be amended to include a new chapter titled "Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples".

The details would be:


View attachment 1636890

The Prime Minister has committed to the government introducing legislation with this wording to parliament on 30 March 2023 and to establishing a joint parliamentary committee to consider it and receive submissions on the wording, providing ALL members of Parliament with the opportunity to consider and debate the full details of the proposal.

Parliament will then vote on the wording in June in the lead up to a National Referendum.

The ANU has issued a paper responding to common public concerns expressed in relation to the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice here:

Indigenous Voice to Parliament | Australian National University

Responding to common concerns about an aboriginal and torres strait islander voice First Nations portfolio Background

www.anu.edu.au

Summary details of the key points from this paper may be found in Chief post here:

The Uluru Statement from the Heart:

Not specifically No. In any case it does not form part of the Referendum proposal.

View attachment 1769742

Seeing as things have gotten a bit toxic in here, let's try to return things to a more civil tone.

The following will result in warnings to begin with, and if said behaviour continues will be escalated:

• referring to another poster as racist without direct provocation.
• dismissing or deriding another poster's lived experience.
• personal attacks or one line posts designed solely to insult or deride.

You might notice that the final rule is from the board rules. Thought we should probably remember that this is against the rules in case it's been forgotten.

Let's play nicely from here, people.

 

[O Grobbecker]

How about instead of wagering, you research issues before making bold claims?


Think about yours.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-17/racism-in-the-rental-sector-wa/10129418b

Your link is a 404 message

 

[Not Important]

Why do you capitalise first nations but not white?
Plus the so called nations dont meet the worldwide definition of a nation.

First Nations

Learn more about this land’s First Nations peoples and cultures.

australian.museum

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Your link is a 404 message

Try this

Being evicted for your cooking or told to hide from prospective tenants — the ugly reality of renting

Having "too dark skin" or cooking ethnic food are just some of the reasons landlords are rejecting rental applications and evicting tenants, advocates say, as they warn the situation is having a serious impact on an alarming number of families.

www.abc.net.au

 

[O Grobbecker]

Try this

Being evicted for your cooking or told to hide from prospective tenants — the ugly reality of renting

Having "too dark skin" or cooking ethnic food are just some of the reasons landlords are rejecting rental applications and evicting tenants, advocates say, as they warn the situation is having a serious impact on an alarming number of families.

www.abc.net.au

You haven't read your article beyond the headline, have you. My comments were specifically about current practice in Melbourne. It's an opinion piece by a young ABC Journalist written before 17 August 2018 which comments upon whether alleged discrimination reported in a 2009 report to the West Australian Equal Opportunities Commission had improved in that 9 year period. Both Byrne and Grove admitted or claimed that there was less discrimination in 2018, Groves effectively claims none where properties are managed by Estate Agents.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Actually, and as an aside, I have a notion the mainstream media (at least) is currently attempting to be overly positive toward Aboriginal people (or anyone not white, really), but that's just a hazy opinion based upon little more than casual observation.

What observations led you to this viewpoint?

As I've already said, real estate agencies and landlords are not actively discriminating against Aboriginal people, in my experience and observation.

Is it possible that discrimination is occurring outside your experience and observation? If so, wouldn't it be useful to research and understand what the experience of First Nations people in finding rental accommodation is? If you can't find the experiences written down anywhere, perhaps you could seek out FN organisations to ask if you could be put in touch with FN people in this situation and hear it from the horse's mouth.

Rent needs to be paid, properties maintained, community attitudes considered. No one with an income based upon rental property is going to hand over a property to someone less fiscally or socially able on the basis of altruism.

That sounds like a good argument for public housing, since people who are less fiscally or socially able need a roof over their heads too.

No real estate agent is going to ignore economic circumstances or historical rental occupancies on the part of any particular applicant "because they're black and that's just racism". That's reality.

What if non-white people with decent economic circumstances and history of occupancies are repeatedly passed aside in favour of white people with similar or inferior circumstances? Is that racism?

Here's a little homework project for you - go do some research on landlords. How many of them are white, how many Aboriginal, how many neither.
Find out who they are renting their properties to (or, as is far more common, who the rental agencies are renting those properties out to). Find cases where Aboriginal people (if you are so determined to focus only on them) have been actively and demonstrably discriminated against when they have a better claim to a rental property than all other applicants, and see if you can include information on who actually got the property, and their circumstances.
Present your findings for everyone here.

Why don't you do this? You seem very sure there isn't a problem, despite FN organisations openly stating that racism in renting is a serious problem.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

You haven't read your article beyond the headline, have you. My comments were specifically about current practice in Melbourne. It's an opinion piece by a young ABC Journalist written before 17 August 2018 which comments upon whether alleged discrimination reported in a 2009 report to the West Australian Equal Opportunities Commission had improved in that 9 year period. Both Byrne and Grove admitted or claimed that there was less discrimination in 2018, Groves effectively claims none where properties are managed by Estate Agents.

Oh okay, so is Melbourne is some sort of haven free from racism while WA alone is full of bigots? It's naive to think that a trend in race relations in one part of the country is completely missing from another, given the comparable level of historic displacement and abuse of First Nations people in both places.

Yes, I read the article. They say that while there has been some improvement, racism continues to be a problem. Does that mean it's fine, nothing to see here? Or does it mean that racism existed and still exists in real estate practices?

And Groves is a spokesperson for real estate agents. Do you really think he's going to come out and say "yes, the people I represent are a bunch of unrepentant bigots, a thousand curses upon them!"

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Try this

Being evicted for your cooking or told to hide from prospective tenants — the ugly reality of renting

Having "too dark skin" or cooking ethnic food are just some of the reasons landlords are rejecting rental applications and evicting tenants, advocates say, as they warn the situation is having a serious impact on an alarming number of families.

www.abc.net.au

As far as cooking goes, I know that Cooking such as Indian and SriLankan can leave a smell long after they vacate.

I've cooked Indian food myself and had the smell there for most of a week afterwards.

Is that racist or smellist?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Is that racist

Yes

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yes

I've never been a landlord and refused a tenant based on that.
But i've been looking for a rental (back in the days when beggars could be choosers ) and had my wife walk out because she couldn't stand the smell.

I figure its business on behalf of the landlord to keep their houses from smelling so strongly rather than racist.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I've never been a landlord and refused a tenant based on that.
But i've been looking for a rental (back in the days when beggars could be choosers ) and had my wife walk out because she couldn't stand the smell.

I figure its business on behalf of the landlord to keep their houses from smelling so strongly rather than racist.

I reckon you know you're being a bit racist with the stereotypes here and you're having some giddy fun pretending to tiptoe around the subject. Hope this is worth it for you I guess.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Oh okay, so is Melbourne is some sort of haven free from racism while WA alone is full of bigots? It's naive to think that a trend in race relations in one part of the country is completely missing from another, given the comparable level of historic displacement and abuse of First Nations people in both places.

Yes, I read the article. They say that while there has been some improvement, racism continues to be a problem. Does that mean it's fine, nothing to see here? Or does it mean that racism existed and still exists in real estate practices?

And Groves is a spokesperson for real estate agents. Do you really think he's going to come out and say "yes, the people I represent are a bunch of unrepentant bigots, a thousand curses upon them!"

I restricted my comments to Melbourne because I live in Melbourne and know a bit about renting in Melbourne. You googled discrimination in renting hoping to find something that you could post that fits in with your woke virtue signalling. All you could come up with was a 4 year old opinion piece from Western Australia based on generalised, non specific comments, no data, from 2 ideologically opposed spokesmen and became so excited that you mucked up your post.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You googled discrimination in renting hoping to find something that you could post that fits in with your woke politically correct virtue signalling.

A little off topic but using the term woke as a pejorative only discredits your argument.

Perhaps instead of giving your opponents in this debate ammunition against you, use terms that won't discredit your argument.

Exhibit A from the poster you replied to:

'Please, add a few more buzzwords. Try "leftie nonsense", that way I can get bingo on my sheet.'

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I restricted my comments to Melbourne because I live in Melbourne and know a bit about renting in Melbourne. You googled discrimination in renting hoping to find something that you could post that fits in with your woke virtue signalling.

Please, add a few more buzzwords. Try "leftie nonsense", that way I can get bingo on my sheet.

All you could come up with was a 4 year old opinion piece from Western Australia based on generalised, non specific comments, no data, from 2 ideologically opposed spokesmen and became so excited that you mucked up your post.

You're more than welcome to research yourself instead of being entitled enough to demand free labour from others to satisfy your own curiosity.

Oh, and you could try reading the article properly instead of bloviating arrant nonsense.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I reckon you know you're being a bit racist with the stereotypes here and you're having some giddy fun pretending to tiptoe around the subject. Hope this is worth it for you I guess.

You can reckon all you like.
I saw an article where landlords were being racist regarding cooking.
I related my limited experience.

FWIW , i'm pretty tolerant to cooking smells and figured they'd fade very quickly, but my wife at the time was not.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You can reckon all you like.
I saw an article where landlords were being racist regarding cooking.
I related my limited experience.

FWIW , i'm pretty tolerant to cooking smells and figured they'd fade very quickly, but my wife at the time was not.

Your wife must be racist then.

 

[O Grobbecker]

A little off topic but using the term woke as a pejorative only discredits your argument.

Perhaps instead of giving your opponents in this debate ammunition against you, use terms that won't discredit your argument.

Exhibit A from the poster you replied to:

'Please, add a few more buzzwords. Try "leftie nonsense", that way I can get bingo on my sheet.'

Thankyou for your imput. As a contributor, of admirable stamina, to the woke-parody thread, lately in a definitional phase, you'll appreciate that politically correct isn't quite the right synonym for woke. I can't think of a more accurate adjective for the views expressed by that particular poster in context.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Thankyou for your imput. As a contributor, of admirable stamina, to the woke-parody thread, lately in a definitional phase, you'll appreciate that politically correct isn't quite the right synonym for woke. I can't think of a more accurate adjective for the views expressed by that particular poster in context.

Woke and politically correct are two completely different things - they're antithetic, not synonymous.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Woke and politically correct are two completely different things - they're antithetic, not synonymous.

Have a look at your correction in response 1,088. I wouldn't say antithetic, hyper consciousness of racial discrimination is part of political correctness.

 

[JackOutback]

I restricted my comments to Melbourne because I live in Melbourne and know a bit about renting in Melbourne. You googled discrimination in renting hoping to find something that you could post that fits in with your woke virtue signalling. All you could come up with was a 4 year old opinion piece from Western Australia based on generalised, non specific comments, no data, from 2 ideologically opposed spokesmen and became so excited that you mucked up your post.

Victoria has the smallest population of Aboriginal people per capita in Australia (1.2 per cent compared to almost 4 per cent nationally), it has roughly the same number of Aboriginal people as the NT despite having 25 times the population. I would suggest your experiences in Melbourne might not give you the best idea of what Aboriginal people in Australia face.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Victoria has the smallest population of Aboriginal people per capita in Australia (1.2 per cent compared to almost 4 per cent nationally), it has roughly the same number of Aboriginal people as the NT despite having 25 times the population. I would suggest your experiences in Melbourne might not give you the best idea of what Aboriginal people in Australia face.

Quite right. Victoria has by far the lowest proportion of Indigenous, per head of population, in Australia, my figure is .98 %. Melbourne ? the hen's teeth analogy springs to mind. My post 1,072, to which you respond, was in response to Saintseptember's 1,063, which, in its turn, responded to Episode IV's 1.061. If you followed that sequence, you'd find that both of E IV and SS postulate considerations by landlords that are other than race bias in dealing with applications for tenancy. My post 1,072, was complementary to those positions, adding my view of the Melbourne experience. Our easily amused friend's post 1,076, which purported to respond to my claim that most of Melbourne landlords may well be of colour, didn't do that, he/she sought to dog leg the thread by making an allegation that I hold a view about race discrimination in rental Australia wide that I've never expressed, have no basis for holding and don't hold. I know that this is a bit of a free-for-all thread but a bit of care instead of reflex prejudicial responses will be appreciated. The accusation of racism is becoming so common as to be almost meaningless but still not appreciated.

 

[Episode IV]

What observations led you to this viewpoint?

What, so a hazy observation of current mainstream media wasn't enough a descriptor for you? I happen to think Aboriginals (and all minorities, really) are being portrayed far more positively in the media at the moment, based upon what I've seen. There isn't too much of it, compared to immigrant groups and other minorities. But as a whole, I haven't seen Aboriginal people being portrayed in an overly negative light other than in those situations where it is a negative story - like the situations in Alice Springs or Carnarvon in WA, for example. Even then, it's not made abundantly clear which social groups are involved. Often actively avoided, some might say.

Is there something more you want? Do you have a countering opinion to offer based upon your observations of the media?

Is it possible that discrimination is occurring outside your experience and observation? If so, wouldn't it be useful to research and understand what the experience of First Nations people in finding rental accommodation is? If you can't find the experiences written down anywhere, perhaps you could seek out FN organisations to ask if you could be put in touch with FN people in this situation and hear it from the horse's mouth.

Of course it is. Duh. In all areas of the political and social spectrum, I might add.
I did mention when looking at shaded accommodation there were several ads by some social groups in particular which were overtly and uncaringly discriminatory, too, but that doesn't seem to have made a blip on your radar. I can only hazard a guess that equality, one of the words the social left like to bandy about, isn't really of too much concern for you.

But as for your solution, I'd be quite willing to do that as part of an investigation, but I am not going to take it as anything more than anecdotal evidence without proof that this is the majority of cases and is a widespread problem. If I were to track down the landlords and real estate agents involved in any given situation, I'd get another anecdotal story about how the rental agencies were well aware of the histories of the people involved and decided that renting out a property to them might be a high risk situation, probably with the kind of detail that doesn't make it into media investigations with an agenda.

Everyone's got a story to tell. Everyone's got reasons, usually hand-crafted for them by people using your agenda, for why they aren't doing too well in life, and one thing you can note about that is that is pretty much a universal, human thing to do - blame someone else for your problems. It's not your fault, nothing you've done (or haven't done), it's "them", that other mob. Holding you back.

Give someone a chance to whinge about how hard they have it in life and they'll take it - particularly if there's a payday involved. Some times it's true, sometimes its somewhat embellished - and if, as I said, there's a payday involved for focus groups, the embellishment increases. Along with anecdotal cases being taken as the situational norm.

I'd prefer to look at hard data. I find it to be, under normal circumstances, much more revealing (when one can find an honest study performed by people who know what they're doing and how to do it). Which is probably why your ilk like to avoid it.

That sounds like a good argument for public housing, since people who are less fiscally or socially able need a roof over their heads too.

Yes, that's why we have public housing. And all the issues that come along with it. Rather a two-edged sword, isn't it.
People have been looking into that, too, trying to address those problems. The only thing that seems to resonate through that particular discussion is that it is very rarely the occupants of those social housing projects fault when things start to go awry.

What if non-white people with decent economic circumstances and history of occupancies are repeatedly passed aside in favour of white people with similar or inferior circumstances? Is that racism?

It might be, in some cases, under your definitions, with the caveat that "racism" as a term has come to mean pretty much discrimination in general these days and doesn't really apply to race much any more. But again, without data on who the real estate agents are, who the landlords are, and how often this actually occurs, and if there are other elements of the equation being ignored in order to push an agenda, you have no ground to stand on. You're just making a statement from a soapbox with hard evidence to back it up.

I have asked that I be provided with examples of where and how often this occurs, including a full situational summary including rental history, economic circumstances, and how often that example situation occurs as a proportion of the market.
Do that, show me that it's a widespread and endemic problem that only affects Aboriginals or affects them more than any other group, and how prevalent that problem is, and I'll listen. I'll pay full attention if you go into the why and wherefores honestly and clearly, and present both sides of the issue fairly and objectively.

Why don't you do this? You seem very sure there isn't a problem, despite FN organisations openly stating that racism in renting is a serious problem.

Perhaps you'd like to point out where I said there isn't a problem. See if you can find where I noted, and this might be paraphrased because I'm just going by memory of what I wrote, that "but it isn't as widespread as you appear to think it is", and where and when it does occur, there are often reasons for it that go far beyond any simplistic, naïve explanations like "it's because they're black".
Or, in short, please stop trying to misrepresent what I've said. It's very annoying and you're achieving absolutely nothing other than garnering a few likes from people who've already faded away having nothing further to offer beyond self-righteous indignation and a bit of spluttering about how mean I am.

But to answer that;
I'm not the one out there claiming there's a problem to the extent that more laws need to be changed to address it. The onus is on the ones who want more legislation, and the problem addressed, to do that. That's pretty much standard procedure.
As I said, there is already legislation in place to prevent this sort of thing occurring, and a cultural change is underway within Australian society which is bringing the issues Aboriginals have and the solutions which have both failed and succeeded so far to light. It's an ongoing process, and there aren't going to be any overnight solutions.

So perhaps you'll offer an answer to a question I've asked: How do you think a Constitutional change is going to address that issue, how do you think it can possibly represent the Aboriginal people as a whole, Who do you think the Aboriginal people are going to be in 50 or a hundreds years (which is important because a constitutional change is about as permanent as it can get), and finally why do you think its necessary, in light of the left wings claims to want equality, to continue to incite division in Australia by legislating differently to different social groups? Do you believe in an egalitarian society or not?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Your wife must be racist then.

Good that she left me then. But she really didn't like the smell. A house that had been tenanted by a heavy smoker may have caused a similar reaction.

Seriously , it is not racist to be intolerant to strong smells.
Are the Asian hotels racist for not allowing Durian in the rooms?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Victoria has the smallest population of Aboriginal people per capita in Australia (1.2 per cent compared to almost 4 per cent nationally), it has roughly the same number of Aboriginal people as the NT despite having 25 times the population. I would suggest your experiences in Melbourne might not give you the best idea of what Aboriginal people in Australia face.

I've got someone living in my house ( Greater Melbourne ) who has indigenous heritage.
I assumed everyone else did too.
Based on my survey, 100% of Aboriginals spend too much time playing video games, and people put up with it because they treat their girlfriend very well.
Oh and they don't eat vegetables apart from potatoes. He's neater than I am though.

( Being facetious here in case people can't get that.. all true though apart from the assuming everyone else does ).

 

[Carringbush2010]

Good that she left me then. But she really didn't like the smell. A house that had been tenanted by a heavy smoker may have caused a similar reaction.

Seriously , it is not racist to be intolerant to strong smells.
Are the Asian hotels racist for not allowing Durian in the rooms?

Of course as you know, my post was tongue in cheek.

I think one would be drawing a long bow to suggest that if someone turned down a property because of certain odours as racist.

Just like claiming that someone doing the same because of smoke odour as intentionally discriminatory.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Of course as you know, my post was tongue in cheek.

I think one would be drawing a long bow to suggest that if someone turned down a property because of certain odours as racist.

Just like claiming that someone doing the same because of smoke odour as intentionally discriminatory.

Its true though, certain ethnic groups cook the kind of food i actually like and enjoy often ( Strong curries ) , a lot and the smell permeates.
It then creates a racist attitude amongst landlords that all Indians and Sri Lankans will stink out their houses.