Rioli or Selwood?

[gabstar]

Selwood's more of an accumulator.

Rioli is simply brilliant, and he also hits the scoreboard occassionally.

I'd go with Selwood for the moment, but I think Rioli will pass him as early as next year.

Hodgepodge you talk absolute rubbish, how can you think that Rioli will be better than Selwood what a load of baloney

 

[Hodgepodge]

Rawlings, Nicoski (rated by gerard healy as the best tagger of small forwards in the comp), Enright, etc. These have been some of Rioli's opponents. He doesn't go unchecked at all.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So your first thought when you see Aker on the HBF is that he's been sent there to tag Rioli? Like I said before, open the other eye.

My first thought would've been that Rocket sent him there to provide a contested mark (given Aker is strong overhead) when the Hawks went inside 50 and to provide the likes of Griffen and Gilbee with support in running it out of defence and through the zone that the Hawks were playing. Your suggestion that he sent one of his best playmakers to tag a kid who, while flashy, wasn't damaging makes much more sense

Wow, you only see it one way don't you? And yet you're telling me to open my one eye.

This assertion that Akermanis was there to give them footskills, and that Rioli's ability had nothing to do with it is ridiculous. Sure, Akermanis would've been told to be as damaging as possible when delivering from the back half and to try and hurt his opponent as much as possible( like all defenders), but once again, your writing off of Rioli is almost as absurd as your comment that Akermanis was there to take contested marks.

 

[donbooger]

Rawlings, Nicoski (rated by gerard healy as the best tagger of small forwards in the comp), Enright, etc. These have been some of Rioli's opponents. He doesn't go unchecked at all.

Tagger of small forwards? You mean a Small defender, Healy is a moron if he believes that Nicoski is the best small defender.

Nicoski and Enright would be standard to put on the oppositions best small forward, that he earned the Rawlings tag is a credit to him and his great start to the season.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Tagger of small forwards? You mean a Small defender, Healy is a moron if he believes that Nicoski is the best small defender.

He said Rioli has his work cut out for him because Nicoski's the best stopper on the small forwards in the business.

 

[donbooger]

He said Rioli has his work cut out for him because Nicoski's the best stopper on the small forwards in the business.

Quite a rap for Nicoski did he live up to it against Rioli?

 

[Hodgepodge]

Quite a rap for Nicoski did he live up to it against Rioli?

Not this year, anyway. Don't remember last season.

 

[a_fighting_fury]

Selwood's more of an accumulator.

Rioli is simply delicious, and he also hits the scoreboard occassionally.

I'd go with Selwood for the moment, but I think Rioli will pass him as early as next year.

Edited for accuracy; and it's Selwood who's brilliant, and will remain so.

 

[Rockford]

Wow, you only see it one way don't you? And yet you're telling me to open my one eye.

I see it in the most likely way. If you can convince me that it was more likely that Rocket sent Aker to the HBF to tag Rioli out of the game then he did to provide a way through the Hawks much publicised zone then I'll believe you.

This assertion that Akermanis was there to give them footskills, and that Rioli's ability had nothing to do with it is ridiculous.

How so? As I've already explained, I find the assertion that Aker (triple Premiership winning, play-making champion) was sent to tag Rioli (19 year old in his first season, avg. less than 1 goal and 14 touches a game) is ridiculous. See, the difference in our finding eachothers assertions ridiculous is that I've explained why I think your assertion is ridiculous.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Quite frankly Rockford, my opinion is that yes Akermanis would have been told to hurt his opponent, but he was not put back there without any thought as to who he would be picking up, which is what you seem to be saying.

Your assumption that Rioli would not cause any concern to an opposition coach is wishful thinking.

Or perhaps you want to revisit your 'contested mark' theory...that gave me a good chuckle.

 

[pendlebury_10]

selwood by a country mile.
love the hawthorn supporters on their high horse.

 

[Rockford]

Quite frankly Rockford, my opinion is that yes Akermanis would have been told to hurt his opponent, but he was not put back there without any thought as to who he would be picking up, which is what you seem to be saying.

Your assumption that Rioli would not cause any concern to an opposition coach is wishful thinking.

That's not my assumption at all. In response to my saying that Rioli had never been given a hard tag you said that Rocket had put Aker onto him in a Final so that obviously he rated him. You seemed to be saying that Aker was put onto Rioli with the key goal being to stop a kid who was averaging less than a goal and 14 touches per game. We'd all have been having a good chuckle if the typical one-eyed Hawk vitriol didn't make us sick.

Or perhaps you want to revisit your 'contested mark' theory...that gave me a good chuckle.

Aker is a good overhead mark. The idea that he was sent to the back line to provide a 3rd man up at contests and help move the ball through the Hawks zone is still light years ahead of the one you initially put forward that he was there to tag Rioli. Your back pedalling is appreciated however.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Back pedalling?
Not a chance.
Rioli is a super player, and one that opposition coaches plan for. That is the crux of my argument here, where as you've taken the 'he's not very damaging, and coaches don't send a player to him' line. Akermanis was sent to him in his first final, whether you think he was there to take contested marks or not, .

You keep naming Rioli's average stats for 2008 like they mean something to back up your argument, yet every man and his dog is aware that 10 Rioli disposals can be just as damaging as 20 odd disposals from a lesser player. Just take a look at the GF of 2008, where most people became aware of how true that statement is.

 

[conanthelibrarian]

No, I'm talking about the entire finals series.

The 2008 GF doesn't enter into the debate if we're talking debut seasons. And I didn't say Selwood didn't have a good 07GF either.

Selwood's debut final series - 3 games, 54 possessions, 11 marks, 11 tackles, 16 inside 50's, 0.3 on the scoreboard and 7 goal assists.

Rioli's debut final series - 3 games, 41 possessions, 12 marks, 9 tackles, 9 inside 50's, 4.1 on the scoreboard and 3 goal assists.

Looks to me that Selwood's '07 finals series was way better than Cyril's.

As for the 2008 GF, wasn't Selwood considered Geelong's 2nd best player behind Ablett? Actually, some of your fellow Hawks fans think he was even better than Ablett, and Gaz has been called the real BOG in the grand final in some circles, yet Cyril's game was better? Open the other eye!

It's like Daniel Rich and Jack Watts.

Rich will be better now, he comes in with an AFL body, etc. Watts will probably end up the better player, has more upside and growth in him.

Yeah, good comparison there. Compare a midfielder with a KPP, who everyone knows take 2-3 years to develop.

I don't see where the improvement will come. He'll never be quick, or an elite kick. He already has the engine and is already racking up lots of possessions per game. He won't get tougher, he's about as big as he will get. He won't get any smarter, he's a smart footballer, but that probably won't improve a hell of a lot either.

Selwood not an elite kick? Have you actually seen him play? Some of his kicking to position is the best I've ever seen. If I had the time and the resources, I'd make a youtube clip of some of his superb passes into the forward line.

Rawlings, Nicoski (rated by gerard healy as the best tagger of small forwards in the comp), Enright, etc. These have been some of Rioli's opponents. He doesn't go unchecked at all.

FFS, Rioli's a small forward. Who the hell leaves a forward unchecked?

 

[Rockford]

Back pedalling?
Not a chance.
Rioli is a super player, and one that opposition coaches plan for. That is the crux of my argument here

So then the fact remains that we can't compare Rioli with a hard tag to Selwood with a hard tag as, while opposition coaches 'plan for' Rioli (I'd like to think every coach plans for every opposition player), they don't warrant him damaging enough to put a tag on him. Until that happens we won't know if Rioli will be good enough to handle it. Selwood with a tag >>>>>>>> Rioli with no tag.

You keep naming Rioli's average stats for 2008 like they mean something to back up your argument, yet every man and his dog is aware that 10 Rioli disposals can be just as damaging as 20 odd disposals from a lesser player.

Rubbish. Unless you're talking about every man and his dog who has a Hawks membership. Are you basing Rioli being twice as damaging as a lesser player on his crap disposal efficiency or his average of 2.63 clangers a game?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Back pedalling?
Not a chance.
Rioli is a super player, and one that opposition coaches plan for. That is the crux of my argument here, where as you've taken the 'he's not very damaging, and coaches don't send a player to him' line. Akermanis was sent to him in his first final, whether you think he was there to take contested marks or not, .

You keep naming Rioli's average stats for 2008 like they mean something to back up your argument, yet every man and his dog is aware that 10 Rioli disposals can be just as damaging as 20 odd disposals from a lesser player. Just take a look at the GF of 2008, where most people became aware of how true that statement is.

and you know this how? I was unaware that you talked to these coaches and attended their meetings, because i have never seen rioli been given a tagger, and just because the western bulldogs decided to put jason akermanis on rioli, really doesnt prove anything, because the other 14 teams didnt give him a single bit of special consideration or planning, if you could even call this extra attention or planning...

Joel has recieved hard taggs from the best in the business, had brett kirk on him the other week, who he got 34 touches against being best on ground.

selwood last season in his second year of AFL, was in the top 3 in the afl for % of kicks into forward fifty that resulted in a team mark, his foot skills are up their in the elite standard in the afl, and considering so much of his disposals are being executed under immense pressure from hard taggers and inside packs, this just adds to the amazement, roili is not even close to the same standard of skills as selwood.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Rubbish. Unless you're talking about every man and his dog who has a Hawks membership. Are you basing Rioli being twice as damaging as a lesser player on his crap disposal efficiency or his average of 2.63 clangers a game?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25465190-19767,00.html

http://www.realfooty.com.au/articles/2009/04/28/1240684463457.html

Not just those two articles have been written about Rioli and how well he's going. Regardless of him not ever having a 30 possession game. He works on the quality end of the spectrum more than the quantity.

Keep pulling up stats though if you think it helps.

 

[tw34k]

I didn't say Selwood didn't play a good Grand Final in 2007, just that Rioli's was better. As was his entire finals series in his debut year, which gives him the advantage in debut seasons.

How does the 2008 GF entire into this debate? We're talking debut years, and 2008 was Selwood's 2nd year.

So unless Rioli is top 3 in this year's GF, he is behind Selwood again?

 

[Rockford]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25465190-19767,00.html

http://www.realfooty.com.au/articles/2009/04/28/1240684463457.html

Not just those two articles have been written about Rioli and how well he's going. Regardless of him not ever having a 30 possession game. He works on the quality end of the spectrum more than the quantity.

Keep pulling up stats though if you think it helps.

I don't have any problems with Rioli being labelled a quality player, he is. You've made suggestions that he is twice as damaging as other players though and that Aker was sent to him to tag him out of a Finals game.

Facts remain: Selwood is damaging and has been given the #1 opposition tagger as an oppoonent, over other players in the Cats rather good midfield (like Ablett, Bartel and Corey). Opposition coaches do not rate Rioli as damaging enough as to give him a hard tag.

Keep putting up article links if you think it helps.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I don't have any problems with Rioli being labelled a quality player, he is. You've made suggestions that he is twice as damaging as other players though and that Aker was sent to him to tag him out of a Finals game.

Facts remain: Selwood is damaging and has been given the #1 opposition tagger as an oppoonent, over other players in the Cats rather good midfield (like Ablett, Bartel and Corey). Opposition coaches do not rate Rioli as damaging enough as to give him a hard tag.

Keep putting up article links if you think it helps.

You may have noticed( obviously not), I'm not questioning Selwood.

I'm stating that you are continually underselling Rioli on the basis that he has not beaten a hard tag. When he's only started playing in the middle this year in bits and pieces.
When he starts in the middle and plays 60-70% of game-time in the guts, he'll get a hard tag, no doubt in my mind. Whereas you seem to suggest otherwise, while also claiming that opposition coaches don't see him as damaging.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Selwood's debut final series - 3 games, 54 possessions, 11 marks, 11 tackles, 16 inside 50's, 0.3 on the scoreboard and 7 goal assists.

Rioli's debut final series - 3 games, 41 possessions, 12 marks, 9 tackles, 9 inside 50's, 4.1 on the scoreboard and 3 goal assists.

Looks to me that Selwood's '07 finals series was way better than Cyril's.

If you look solely at stats, maybe

As for the 2008 GF, wasn't Selwood considered Geelong's 2nd best player behind Ablett? Actually, some of your fellow Hawks fans think he was even better than Ablett, and Gaz has been called the real BOG in the grand final in some circles, yet Cyril's game was better? Open the other eye!

I don't recall saying that Cyril's game was better than Selwood's in the GF . . .

Ablett has been called the real BOG by Mike Sheahan, I don't know who else. It's a silly statement.

Yeah, good comparison there. Compare a midfielder with a KPP, who everyone knows take 2-3 years to develop.

That's the point. Rioli will take longer to develop than Selwood, all we're seeing now is raw brilliance. In a few years time when he gets some run into his legs and learns where to run to get the ball, he'll be better.

Selwood not an elite kick? Have you actually seen him play? Some of his kicking to position is the best I've ever seen. If I had the time and the resources, I'd make a youtube clip of some of his superb passes into the forward line.

Be that as it may, he is not an elite kick. He's a good user, like Robert Harvey.

FFS, Rioli's a small forward. Who the hell leaves a forward unchecked?

Exactly, he never goes unchecked, although he plays a lot of midfield these days.

 

[conanthelibrarian]

Be that as it may, he is not an elite kick. He's a good user, like Robert Harvey.

Just for interest's sake, what do you class as an elite kick?

(This should be good for a laugh.)

 

[Hodgepodge]

Just for interest's sake, what do you class as an elite kick?

(This should be good for a laugh.)

Guys like Gilbee, Hodge, Buckley were/are elite kicks.

Guys like Rob Harvey, although very reliable, were not. They were just good users.

Selwood is not an elite kick, and nobody will tell you he is.

 

[Grandmaster_B]

This poll is an absolute arse raping.

And the results are spot on.

 

[STC]

That's the point. Rioli will take longer to develop than Selwood, all we're seeing now is raw brilliance. In a few years time when he gets some run into his legs and learns where to run to get the ball, he'll be better.

Rioli is not a KPP, he's a small forward/mid. Took that quote completely out of context.

Selwood just keeps getting better. Close to BOG yet again, has overtaken Corey and Bartel already. Definitely a top 10 player at the moment (competition, not club). But of course, Selwood has already reached his peak