Autopsy Rolled over to Freo after leading by 41 at qtr time, what's wrong @ the kennel?

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The Slitherin' Snake said:
Genuinely felt like the only game of the season when we had a definitive game plan.
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We did that well in that last H&A game against the Demons in 2021 too.

That’s the frustrating thing with Bevo, as he clearly knows tactically how to beat a good team, but then shoots himself in the foot by wild selections and deserting any game plan the next week.

He lacks consistency in his thoughts, hence why stronger assistants are required to challenge and keep him on track.
 

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doggies ftw said:
This happens so often it’s actually comical, it’s almost like we plan it on purpose sometimes. Without fail at the most critical times possible, in comes our s**t back up ruckman!
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Cordy is not a key position player ley alone a ruckman, his selection over obvious alternatives is the most frustrating, have look at win/loss ratios over2 years when he plays
 
The Inbetweener said:
I am enjoying the fact that media keep highlighting that ridiculous play in the last quarter where Gardner stopped going with Amiss, stayed back to protect space, allowing Amiss the chance to take an uncontested mark and eventual goal.

More highlighting of Bevo’s ridiculous tactics the better
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Totally agree….. I firmly believe that this is coaching strategy not the individual players poor decision making. It happened far too often by multiple players to have not been coached that way.

Also it’s amazing how different the game looked in the first half compared to the second half. I thought when I was watching the game that it was wonderful early to see us applying pressure in the first half the way we were. I thought we had finally decided to play the game the right way, the same way that Sydney and Collingwood apply pressure and this was backed up by the numbers which showed we had a pressure rating of over 200 in both the first and second quarter and yet in the third it dropped to 177 and then in the last quarter it dropped to 149 which is absolutely abysmal.

This is backed up by the eye test which showed us back to playing the way we did that day at Marvel against Freo where we backed off and guarded space and didn’t pressure and didn’t tackle. We let Freo just move the ball and didn’t defend. It’s almost impossible to believe that we decided to do that in the last quarter of an elimination final when we knew that this was a strategy that led to us getting killed by them in Round 21….. You just cannot win a Final with a pressure rating of 149, it’s not even close to AFL average. You need to be elite, not well below average.

So why is that? Is it coaching? Is it fitness and conditioning? Is it attitude? Whatever it is, it’s nowhere near good enough and must change. Talent won’t get you there alone, you need effort and you need intelligent game strategy.
 
So with footy still on the brain, I watched the 2016 elimination final vs West Coast then re-watched the Freo game.

The ferociousness of the 2016 will be hard to match - Libba, Dahlhause, Picken, Smith, Morris, Boyd and two competitive rucks and Hamling playing a blinder. Still one of our best wins ever. Oh and Daniel was fantastic as a half forward setting up multiple goals (where I think he should play).

On to the Freo game.

Gee English has bad. Not just in the ruck but around the ground. Could have stopped the last goal of the 2nd quarter, chose not to go. His game was the polar opposite of Boyd/Roughie which was an underrated combo. I think Darcy once a little stronger will see more minutes in the ruck, who knows when that will be.
Baily Smith and Adam Treloar had bad games, if they are struggling offensively they need to work harder and they don't, especially defensively. We didn't really have players like this in 2016 bar Hunter, JJ and Daniel (who all made up for it elsewhere). Now we have Hunter, Daniel, Dale, Treloar, Smith, Williams, JJ, English and Keith.
Keith is finished unfortunately, back up only next year. Gardiner did some good thing yet also made some terrible mistakes as usual. Richards after a good year had a shocker, Freo kept him out of the play.

Our team needs a shake up. I would change our key back set up entirely. Jones and hopefully another comes in. I want Dunkley to stay but if he goes, after all his second guessing, p*ss him off and make the most out of the draft pick, probably better in the long run. We need another mid fielder. Add some more speed all over the ground if possible.

We still aren't far away, the comp is even, yet we cannot afford to waste a generational talent like Bont. We need to act now, get creative, turn some players over Hunter / Cordy and attack the trade period.
 
ExRoyboy said:
Totally agree….. I firmly believe that this is coaching strategy not the individual players poor decision making. It happened far too often by multiple players to have not been coached that way.

Also it’s amazing how different the game looked in the first half compared to the second half. I thought when I was watching the game that it was wonderful early to see us applying pressure in the first half the way we were. I thought we had finally decided to play the game the right way, the same way that Sydney and Collingwood apply pressure and this was backed up by the numbers which showed we had a pressure rating of over 200 in both the first and second quarter and yet in the third it dropped to 177 and then in the last quarter it dropped to 149 which is absolutely abysmal.

This is backed up by the eye test which showed us back to playing the way we did that day at Marvel against Freo where we backed off and guarded space and didn’t pressure and didn’t tackle. We let Freo just move the ball and didn’t defend. It’s almost impossible to believe that we decided to do that in the last quarter of an elimination final when we knew that this was a strategy that led to us getting killed by them in Round 21….. You just cannot win a Final with a pressure rating of 149, it’s not even close to AFL average. You need to be elite, not well below average.

So why is that? Is it coaching? Is it fitness and conditioning? Is it attitude? Whatever it is, it’s nowhere near good enough and must change. Talent won’t get you there alone, you need effort and you need intelligent game strategy.
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I have a feeling our fitness has not been good all year. We have literally been outrun by teams in many games according to the afl stats. Freo ran 5km more than us over the game on Saturday.

I wonder if the late finish to last year - 2 byes in finals don’t forget - meant our pre-season was too short.

There was an article in the Hun yesterday pointing out that Melbourne has a poor last quarter points differential this season, whereas last year they were excellent in the last quarter. Maybe it has affected them too. Sydney ran 10km more than Melbourne over their game.

just a thought.
 
AFDogs said:
The less said about this game the better.
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That seems to be the way the club operates too.

Worked well after the GF, ay?
 
Sharpiesadog said:
I have a feeling our fitness has not been good all year. We have literally been outrun by teams in many games according to the afl stats. Freo ran 5km more than us over the game on Saturday.

I wonder if the late finish to last year - 2 byes in finals don’t forget - meant our pre-season was too short.

There was an article in the Hun yesterday pointing out that Melbourne has a poor last quarter points differential this season, whereas last year they were excellent in the last quarter. Maybe it has affected them too. Sydney ran 10km more than Melbourne over their game.

just a thought.
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Yep, going deep into finals can hurt the next year vs a side that had more time to recover and get a head start.

Especially if a finals team is beat up, I think it was Melbourne after 2018 that had a stack of surgeries after making a prelim?

It clearly makes a difference.

They really should erect a statue of Richmond’s conditioning team at Punt Rd.

For 4 years (17-20) to consistently have your best dozen players on the park every week, it’s a mighty job after going deep each year.
 
Foxman98 said:
How are people still blaming Bevo? Yeah a few selections I.e Vandermeer were bad but again our players are mentally weak and s**t themselves when the opposition get a run on it’s not coaching it’s personal we don’t have it
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The people who blame the coach think our good midfield is generational.
Or that Sweet is a star.
 

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4Seasons said:
The people who blame the coach think our good midfield is generational.
Or that Sweet is a star.
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I don’t think either of those things.

I just see a poor defensive gameplan and inconsistent team selection and question the coach and footy department.

Yes, the players need to take some responsibility for the performances. The ball walks out of the forward line and our midfield group regularly cheat at centre clearances and let opponents stream inside our defensive 50. The mids frequently have poor forward 50 entries, the forwards all fly for the same ball and don’t crumb it when it spills. Our goal kicking is poor more often that not. Our defenders turn the ball over way too much and also all fly for the same ball and leak goals over the back.

A lot of that is on the players, but a decent chunk on the coach and his assistants too.
 
hutchy31 said:
I don’t think either of those things.

I just see a poor defensive gameplan and inconsistent team selection and question the coach and footy department.

Yes, the players need to take some responsibility for the performances. The ball walks out of the forward line and our midfield group regularly cheat at centre clearances and let opponents stream inside our defensive 50. The mids frequently have poor forward 50 entries, the forwards all fly for the same ball and don’t crumb it when it spills. Our goal kicking is poor more often that not. Our defenders turn the ball over way too much and also all fly for the same ball and leak goals over the back.

A lot of that is on the players, but a decent chunk on the coach and his assistants too.
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Yep, it’s all frustrating.
I just think our mids are our strength and biggest weakness. I certainly don’t buy into the generational clap trap, we’ve always had a strong midfield. Some far better than this one.

The backline though is a big problem. Bev has generally worked well with poor defenders. Hopefully we can see more of that again.
 
hutchy31 said:
I don’t think either of those things.

I just see a poor defensive gameplan and inconsistent team selection and question the coach and footy department.

Yes, the players need to take some responsibility for the performances. The ball walks out of the forward line and our midfield group regularly cheat at centre clearances and let opponents stream inside our defensive 50. The mids frequently have poor forward 50 entries, the forwards all fly for the same ball and don’t crumb it when it spills. Our goal kicking is poor more often that not. Our defenders turn the ball over way too much and also all fly for the same ball and leak goals over the back.
Click to expand...
Do you consider this a player or coaching issue ? If it's the players, then you'd expect them to be disciplined or sent back to the twos to learn better habits, yet the same culprits have automatic selection. Could it be that the coaching staff encourage that behaviour ?
 
stefoid said:
what about cody? he hardly crumbs a ball - more of a lead and mark type of forward with a deadly boot. Could he take that to the wing?
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Cody’s awesome at ground level, he just doesn’t do it cos he’s always flying for marks! Just needs to be instructed how to play his role better.

But imo someone with his goal sense & talent would be wasted on a wing, 40 goal small forwards are hide to find we’ve got one so should keep him there, plus he’s the only one who chase & pressures up there too!
 
hutchy31 said:
I don’t think either of those things.

I just see a poor defensive gameplan and inconsistent team selection and question the coach and footy department.

Yes, the players need to take some responsibility for the performances. The ball walks out of the forward line and our midfield group regularly cheat at centre clearances and let opponents stream inside our defensive 50. The mids frequently have poor forward 50 entries, the forwards all fly for the same ball and don’t crumb it when it spills. Our goal kicking is poor more often that not. Our defenders turn the ball over way too much and also all fly for the same ball and leak goals over the back.

A lot of that is on the players, but a decent chunk on the coach and his assistants too.
Click to expand...
If you stack up Freo's team against ours, I think our list is clearly better. If we were to ask neutral supporters which team has the better players, I reckon they'd say we do.I'm not sure, but I think that we have more All Australians running around than Freo. The fact that they beat us at home convincingly and then beat us again after giving us a 6 goal head start points to poor coaching. Leading up to the games and during both games.
 
yebach said:
If you stack up Freo's team against ours, I think our list is clearly better. If we were to ask neutral supporters which team has the better players, I reckon they'd say we do.I'm not sure, but I think that we have more All Australians running around than Freo.The fact that they beat us at home convincingly and then beat us again after giving us a 6 goal head start points to poor coaching. Leading up to the games and during both games.
Click to expand...

Opening cliche. champion team v team of champions.
My impression, from games I attended this year, is that the players' pressure, chase and endeavour when the opposition was in possession were nowhere near the standard required. That's a generalisation and personal perception however the stats produced by Oliver Gigacz, for time spent in the forward half, pressure guage and targets inside forward 50 in the Elimination Final, reproduced below, confirm that impression. The immediate coaching responsibility for the 2 crucial areas, midfield and forward, where a forward press and zone defence are used, was allocated to 2 new coaches, Webb and Spangher, the latter who has not coached at AFL level before. I don't think it's a coaching issue, that doesn't account for lack of effort and Bev is the Great Inspirer anyway.
Closing cliche. when the going gets tough, the tough get going


Time In Forward Half

Q1
WB: 55%
FR: 45%

Q2
WB: 53%
FR: 47%

Q3
WB: 47%
FR: 53%

Q4
WB: 34%
FR: 66%

Match
WB: 47%
FR: 53%

Pressure Gauge
Q1
WB: 210 (Elite)
FR: 183 (Average)

Q2
WB: 205 (Elite)
FR: 195 (Above Average)

Q3
WB: 177 (Below Average)
FR: 189 (Average)

Q4
WB: 149 (Poor)*
FR: 203 (Elite)

*gauge usually starts at 160, so 149 is beyond bad.

Match
WB: 186 (Average)
FR: 191 (Above Average)

Targets Inside 50

27 - No target
6 - Naughton
3 - English, Ugle-Hagan, Weightman
2 - Bontempelli, Johannisen
1 - Darcy, Dunkley, R. Smith, Vandermeer

Stats by Oliver Gigacz, page 22 Rolled over to Freo after leading...thread
 
How is pressure measured? If its simply by the number of pressure acts, its very much dependent on the style of play each team is using, and not only a measure of 'effort or intent to defend'

By that measure, if both sides are playing a stoppage heavy game, kicking long to contests...both sides are going to have high pressure numbers... its just a direct consequence of playing a contest-heavy game.

OTOH if you are playing keepings off or whisking the ball forward with overlapping handball, its just going to create less opportunities for the opposition to pressure, whether they want to or not.

From my watching the game, Id say as it wore on, Freo was moving the ball better...quicker and more direct, and we were the opposite, going indirect and kicking long to boundary contests. They were offering less opportunities to pressure, and we were offering more.
 
This thread needs to die.

It burns more at every reading of the op.
 
D Mitchell said:
Opening cliche. champion team v team of champions.
My impression, from games I attended this year, is that the players' pressure, chase and endeavour when the opposition was in possession were nowhere near the standard required. That's a generalisation and personal perception however the stats produced by Oliver Gigacz, for time spent in the forward half, pressure guage and targets inside forward 50 in the Elimination Final, reproduced below, confirm that impression. The immediate coaching responsibility for the 2 crucial areas, midfield and forward, where a forward press and zone defence are used, was allocated to 2 new coaches, Webb and Spangher, the latter who has not coached at AFL level before. I don't think it's a coaching issue, that doesn't account for lack of effort and Bev is the Great Inspirer anyway.
Closing cliche. when the going gets tough, the tough get going


Time In Forward Half

Q1
WB: 55%
FR: 45%

Q2
WB: 53%
FR: 47%

Q3
WB: 47%
FR: 53%

Q4
WB: 34%
FR: 66%

Match
WB: 47%
FR: 53%

Pressure Gauge
Q1
WB: 210 (Elite)
FR: 183 (Average)

Q2
WB: 205 (Elite)
FR: 195 (Above Average)

Q3
WB: 177 (Below Average)
FR: 189 (Average)

Q4
WB: 149 (Poor)*
FR: 203 (Elite)

*gauge usually starts at 160, so 149 is beyond bad.

Match
WB: 186 (Average)
FR: 191 (Above Average)

Targets Inside 50

27 - No target
6 - Naughton
3 - English, Ugle-Hagan, Weightman
2 - Bontempelli, Johannisen
1 - Darcy, Dunkley, R. Smith, Vandermeer

Stats by Oliver Gigacz, page 22 Rolled over to Freo after leading...thread
Click to expand...
Surely that 27 times to ‘No Target’ is a big worry on at least a few angles?

Like it isn’t as if we are a speedy team that is burning opposition that regularly on the turnover, i.e. kicking into a vacant 50m.

Unless the range from nearest player measurement is really strict with that or something, or it just counts kicking to packs? Which would make it a very misleading stat.
 

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Autopsy Rolled over to Freo after leading by 41 at qtr time, what's wrong @ the kennel?

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