No Oppo Supporters Ross Lyon will NEVER win a premiership

[Yato]

Darling had question marks if I remember correctly... anyway we had our chance to win the game last night so the gameplan almost worked. I personally think the Eagles and Hawks have the best lists in the comp. The Eagles and Hawks have midfields that match ours and then they have guns in their forward line ... Eagles - Kennedy (Coleman Medal), LeCras, Darling, Cripps etc . Hawks - Roughhead, Gunston, Breust, Rioli and then ours . Dockers - Pavlich, Mayne, Walters and Ballantyne. I would pick Hawks or Eagles forward line over ours any day.

 

[DudleyDocker]

Darling had question marks if I remember correctly... anyway we had our chance to win the game last night so the gameplan almost worked. I personally think the Eagles and Hawks have the best lists in the comp. The Eagles and Hawks have midfields that match ours and then they have guns in their forward line ... Eagles - Kennedy (Coleman Medal), LeCras, Darling, Cripps etc . Hawks - Roughhead, Gunston, Breust, Rioli and then ours . Dockers - Pavlich, Mayne, Walters and Ballantyne. I would pick Hawks or Eagles forward line over ours any day.

Again, chicken and egg. Did the Eagles have the best list the last two years when they missed the finals? It has hardly changed. Or did their list become a lot better when they adopted a game plan that allows players time and space to hit targets and kick easy goals.

We could have won last night, we could have won both finals last year and we could have won the 2013 grand final - it's the fact we didn't that is the real concern. The reality is if Sydney had kicked straight we would have been out in straight sets two years running.

I agree, but I would also pick Hawks or Eagles game plan over ours.

 

[salim malik]

Anyone who thinks talent alone wins matches is in LA LA land.

Did the Hawks finish top of ladder? No

Did they rest their whole team? No

Did they beat the Eagles? No

Did they have a two week break? No

Freo were gifted an GF appearance, as every single possible thing lined up yet come crunch time the game plan wasn't good enough.

How's the weather in la la land

 

[GreatPurpleShark]

The first 10 weeks this year showed what lyon was trying to change scoring wise. Unfortunately too many players lost form. Lyon had to play our best team leading into finals to try to tune it up. No point playing kids that would not be in our finals ( they didnt even step up in wafl finals). In the end too many players were under done (dawson, fyfe, pav, ballas, johnno). We gave it everything we had in the end. At 10 mins to go we were down by 20 points which was the difference in points from turnovers.

2 bad momentum swings cost us, the umps in the first when we had ascendancy and the two errors when switching in the final term. The second one was just stupid when hawks were waiting on it.

We will be back here again next year imo

 

[smokingjacket]

I didn't want to write a long post I'm busy mourning. I mentioned our inside game in my post and that's our strength and gameplan. We killed them in there. We got the first touch so many times but didn't have the quality on the outside to move the ball from the inside to the outside then to the forward line.

How many times did we over handball inside, or miss a target and turn over?

How many times did we win the clearance just to miss the half forward target/ boundary line.

If we had quality at half forward to make a contest or take a mark we would have won the match. Tabs was vital and failed. If we take that mark at half forward, the game is then on our terms, we are able to lock the ball in and hopefully get repeat entries.

But these aren't points raised just from last nights game. They've been festering for the whole second half of the season.

Sometimes the problem with being on top, but playing well, is that you resist the need to reform your style. When results turned against us and other teams improved we returned to our slog it out philosophy and the fast ball movement went out the window.

Fast ball movement shouldn't be a luxury for this team, it should be a core principle of any time we step on the park.

 

[smokingjacket]

Anyone who thinks WC have a better list than us is kidding themselves.

Play a game of who you would prefer across their lines compared to us. I'd take a few of their forwards, Kennedy-Pav, Darling-Taberner, LeCras-Mayne, but I'd take Walters and Ballantyne over Hill or Sheed/Cripps. Sinclair-meh.

I wouldn't take a single one of their mids in a one on one battle on role. ie. inside mid Fyfe/Mundy-Priddis I take ours. outside Hill-Gaff I take Hill every day of the week.

Their backline is a rabble held together with cellotape at the moment. Different story when McKenzie gets back but apart from Hurn who's a quality distributor and far better than Sheridan or whoever the **** is meant to be making smart choices from our d50 the last month, I'd take none of them.

In fact it's quite astonishing how bad they look on paper on last years form.

 

[Nathan Patch]

The first 10 weeks this year showed what lyon was trying to change scoring wise. Unfortunately too many players lost form. Lyon had to play our best team leading into finals to try to tune it up. No point playing kids that would not be in our finals ( they didnt even step up in wafl finals). In the end too many players were under done (dawson, fyfe, pav, ballas, johnno). We gave it everything we had in the end. At 10 mins to go we were down by 20 points which was the difference in points from turnovers.

2 bad momentum swings cost us, the umps in the first when we had ascendancy and the two errors when switching in the final term. The second one was just stupid when hawks were waiting on it.

We will be back here again next year imo

I agree that we were higher scoring at the start of year and due to form. I'd actually say the benefit of the bigger pre-season, extra running freo did had an impact earlier but form and the ability to run out games tampered off later into the year.

I am not as optimistic next year. Ross is trying to be more attacking and actually has done really well with the talent he has available. In 2013 & 2015 I actually think we over-achieved. At the end of the day we lack the class & composure with ball as shown in critical moments last night against the hawks. Our defensive pressure peaked in the finals of 2013 but by the end of 2015 is not close to that standard.

Trade period is critical to our 2016 campaign. At the end of the day Ross can only coach the talent available and some freo supporters are really unrealistic about this. Seriously I want tabs to be good but his no world beater forward development takes time. Pav is a champion but past it now. I mean if he was coaching with a forward line similar to Hawthorns or West Coasts we wouldn't be having this conversation. Undoubtedly we are stronger in other areas of the ground.

Ross & the players certainly cannot increase their training load from last summer and many teams will increase theirs to match ours from last summer. So we can't gain any advantage fitness wise in the pre-season. All we can do is heal our wounded & hope Bondy recruits well. As always I'd imagine we'd structurally tinker a bit. Even if Pav doesn't retire I hope Fyfe becomes captain since his on field leadership is always excellent. I mean last night it was sad to see him play injured and yet he willed himself to have an impact, playing off 1 leg. Time to pass the baton to Fyfe.

 

[Lach72]

Anyone who thinks WC have a better list than us is kidding themselves.

Play a game of who you would prefer across their lines compared to us. I'd take a few of their forwards, Kennedy-Pav, Darling-Taberner, LeCras-Mayne, but I'd take Walters and Ballantyne over Hill or Sheed/Cripps. Sinclair-meh.

I wouldn't take a single one of their mids in a one on one battle on role. ie. inside mid Fyfe/Mundy-Priddis I take ours. outside Hill-Gaff I take Hill every day of the week.

Their backline is a rabble held together with cellotape at the moment. Different story when McKenzie gets back but apart from Hurn who's a quality distributor and far better than Sheridan or whoever the **** is meant to be making smart choices from our d50 the last month, I'd take none of them.

In fact it's quite astonishing how bad they look on paper on last years form.

Last years form? So no actual relevance to this year's footy? Rightio then.

That backline "held together by cello tape" has been very close to us in points against.
They lost their best two key defenders and their back line is functioning. They've had their best midfielder playing as a back man and as a ruck at times.
Their ball movement is far superior to ours. Those crabs Cripps and Hill regularly kick 2-3 goals a game.

Without going all Simmo here, you need to stop drinking the Kool Aid and look at actual performance/method rather than some imaginary fairy land put down on paper.

Same as why we lost last night. Our ball movement is shit, our basic skills are poor and it allows chip scabs like Rioli to go from being an anonymous passenger to winning the game

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Again, chicken and egg. Did the Eagles have the best list the last two years when they missed the finals? It has hardly changed. Or did their list become a lot better when they adopted a game plan that allows players time and space to hit targets and kick easy goals.

We could have won last night, we could have won both finals last year and we could have won the 2013 grand final - it's the fact we didn't that is the real concern. The reality is if Sydney had kicked straight we would have been out in straight sets two years running.

I agree, but I would also pick Hawks or Eagles game plan over ours.

I think to a large extent the Eagles list now has a game plan that suits them.

They have, since JJK and Darling arrived, an extremely potent forward line.

They have a bunch of small, pacey mids/HBFs who are elite kicks (Shuey the ****ing shoe, Masto, Shawwod, Shep, Gaff). Forcing those players to play a more combatative, defensive style would be folly. Hence why we have been able to essentially bully them for the last ~5 derbies. I think it is no coincidence that every Eagles mid i've named there is having a career year.

Similarly, I think expecting our players to play a Hawks style kicking game would also be folly. We run a similar zone defence to the Hawks at times but we just don't have the skills to execute the kicks that they consistently do when we have possession.

 

[Lach72]

I think to a large extent the Eagles list now has a game plan that suits them.

They have, since JJK and Darling arrived, an extremely potent forward line.

They have a bunch of small, pacey mids/HBFs who are elite kicks (Shuey the ******* shoe, Masto, Shawwod, Shep, Gaff). Forcing those players to play a more combatative, defensive style would be folly. Hence why we have been able to essentially bully them for the last ~5 derbies. I think it is no coincidence that every Eagles mid i've named there is having a career year.

Similarly, I think expecting our players to play a Hawks style kicking game would also be folly. We run a similar zone defence to the Hawks at times but we just don't have the skills to execute the kicks that they consistently do when we have possession.

Hence we must get rid of those with sub standard skills. The kids may not be good enough. We know that the team as it stands is not.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Hence we must get rid of those with sub standard skills. The kids may not be good enough. We know that the team as it stands is not.

To an extent I agree. But it is a formidable task to turn over the list to that extent quickly. I am fully in favour of a mini-rebuild and what I read from Lyon's comments is that he is also of that opinion to an extent, although his primary goal is of course to win.

What I don't think is valid is using the 'we need to find out if the kids are good enough' line with reference to selection in a Prelim against Hawthorn, and I tend not to buy the idea that we should have done it prior to that and that it could have been the difference this year.

 

[DudleyDocker]

To an extent I agree. But it is a formidable task to turn over the list to that extent quickly. I am fully in favour of a mini-rebuild and what I read from Lyon's comments is that he is also of that opinion to an extent, although his primary goal is of course to win.

What I don't think is valid is using the 'we need to find out if the kids are good enough' line with reference to selection in a Prelim against Hawthorn, and I tend not to buy the idea that we should have done it prior to that and that it could have been the difference this year.

To some extent I think this is part of our problem. You don't have to win every game, you just need to finish as high as possible on the ladder while positioning your squad to be as fit and available as possible.

This year we won more games than any other team in the home and away, but again we limped into the finals with some injuries, some unfit players and some horrendously out of form. Playing 25 players all year and hoping they will all wind up fit and in form at the pointy end is folly. We need a pool of more AFL ready players to pick from - either by trading for experience or getting games into more of our young players. Not a one-off throw away game at year end, or risking them untried in a final, but sprinkled in among the experienced squad throughout the year. If we can't rotate at least one of the young kids in each week without risking the season then we are pretty much stuffed anyway.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Ross may never win a premiership plenty of good coaches don't. But his responsibility is to win games during the season and at the selection table he is looking to win the next game not worry about the list he may have in 12 months time, others on the selection committee may have that responsibility but would they be able to override Ross or does/ did the desire to win, get to finals etc this year take priority. This may even get worse in the next two years as Ross looks to win more games to get a better W/L ratio to get a contract extension. Or do the board give him a extension now and back him in to develop the younger players over the next couple of years. Not a rebuild but the normal turnover of players this year and the next couple will potentially involve some of our best in important areas.

 

[Agenfrida]

So you're effectively saying the Eagles list is more talented than the Hawks LOL.

The Hawks are at their weakest this year and for Freo to no capitalise at home speaks volume of our game plan.

Yes I agree, the gameplan needs an overhaul. However, If the Hawks were at their weakest, what the F were we?

McPharlin out, Fyfe on one leg, Pav with Achillies problems, Johnson with back and hamstring problems.

We're not exactly running at full strength ourselves.

I used to think Salim was over reacting when he'd suggest you're not a legit Freo supporter, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[sproketman]

Yes I agree, the gameplan needs an overhaul. However, If the Hawks were at their weakest, what the F were we?

McPharlin out, Fyfe on one leg, Pav with Achillies problems, Johnson with back and hamstring problems.

We're not exactly running at full strength ourselves.

We're never at full strength in September, in fact repeatedly we have gone in with severe problems with soft tissue injuries and thereby related to overuse. It can't just be luck. Perhaps the game plan is to blame?

 

[Lach72]

We're never at full strength in September, in fact repeatedly we have gone in with severe problems with soft tissue injuries and thereby related to overuse. It can't just be luck. Perhaps the game plan is to blame?

Yeah I think that's a fallacy to be frank. Hawthorn/West Coast in fact all top teams expect their forwards to move back and defend. You often see Hawthorn with very little up front.

They're better ball users, which means less transition backwards I think

 

[Agenfrida]

We're never at full strength in September, in fact repeatedly we have gone in with severe problems with soft tissue injuries and thereby related to overuse. It can't just be luck. Perhaps the game plan is to blame?

Maybe, and I'm in agreeance that it needs to change. However, if it is the gameplan, why are the same players, none of whom endure the most 'stress' in the midfield (I'm excluding Fyfes fracture here as he's not repeatedly injured) the ones who break down every year? I think our injuries are more reflected of the age of our key guys more than the plan itself.

 

[Citizen Kain]

I think it's about execution more than anything else, looking at previous finals since 2012 we have gotten ourselves into winning positions, just haven't been able to get it done

In the 2012 semi we lead Adelaide by 7 at the 5' mark of the last quarter (after leading by 30 points in the 2nd quarter) lost by 10
In the 2013 GF we trailed by 4 points late in the 3rd quarter and 10 at 3QT, you can still win from that position though. lost by 15
in the 2014 SF we lead Port by 10 points at the 12' mark of the last quarter (after leading by 24 at HT) lost by 22
In the 2015 PF we trailed by 9 points at the 4' mark of the last quarter (after missing two reasonably simple set shots) lost by 27

All of these games we have been in a reasonable position to get the result, we just haven't been able to get it done and thats all. So we have put ourselves in positions to win elimination finals but we haven't quite been able to do that.

 

[sproketman]

Yeah I think that's a fallacy to be frank. Hawthorn/West Coast in fact all top teams expect their forwards to move back and defend. You often see Hawthorn with very little up front.

They're better ball users, which means less transition backwards I think

Yes, Hawthorn push back like all clubs do. The difference is that when they win the ball back in defence they are capable of patiently moving the ball up the field without having to sprint hard.

For Freo it's a maniacal scramble. We're not good at slowly moving the ball forward when the opposition have their defences set. That's what highly skilled teams can do.

 

[Lach72]

Yes, Hawthorn push back like all clubs do. The difference is that when they win the ball back in defence they are capable of patiently moving the ball up the field without having to sprint hard.

For Freo it's a maniacal scramble. We're not good at slowly moving the ball forward when the opposition have their defences set. That's what highly skilled teams can do.

Yeah, so that's personnel not game plan. We saw what happened last night when we blew our own head off trying to be cute

 

[freocuz]

I simply cbf reading the entirety of this thread.

Add McCarthy and Fyfe to our forward line and Bennell into the midfield and tell me RTB won't take us to the flag.

 

[sproketman]

Yeah, so that's personnel not game plan. We saw what happened last night when we blew our own head off trying to be cute

Don't buy the personnel argument. The side that runs out each week has changed very little under Lyon since late 2012.

Yes, De Boer etc are poor kicks, but why is he selecting them? Because they suit his game plan.

 

[E Shed]

But its not the overall result that drives the conclusion that they were not quite ready this year. It was the play by play form of each of them as individuals. In short they showed their decision making, execution and body size was not quite as good as the mature guys we want them to replace. That will not be the case next year after another pre season of development.

If we had given them more game time during 2015, we would not have been watching a home prelim last night. It was worth going for a flag. And further - they're still on the list. In the scheme of a whole career, an additional 15 games in 2015 is not going to matter.

In short, Lyon is getting the calls on when to promote young talent 100% right. If they're good enough, they're in. See Neale, Sutcliffe and Sheridan.

We have a lot to look forward to next year with A Pearce, Weller, Blakely and Langdon all hopefully emerging into the firsts. Add to that incoming talent of McCarthy and Bennell and things will take on quite a different complexion.

When Weller had a 1/4 playing in the A's he had 8 touches, made about 80M twice & kicked one of the best inside 50 balls I saw all year that resulted in a goal. You can't tell me that wouldn't have been handy last night. The mistake you are making on that side of the argument is judging how well these guys play in an inferior slower game. The hacks in our side kill at WAFL but up a grade all their flaws are magnified. Weller showed he could be very effective in small doses. He should have played more.


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[TheMcManusNose]

To some extent I think this is part of our problem. You don't have to win every game, you just need to finish as high as possible on the ladder while positioning your squad to be as fit and available as possible.

This year we won more games than any other team in the home and away, but again we limped into the finals with some injuries, some unfit players and some horrendously out of form. Playing 25 players all year and hoping they will all wind up fit and in form at the pointy end is folly. We need a pool of more AFL ready players to pick from - either by trading for experience or getting games into more of our young players. Not a one-off throw away game at year end, or risking them untried in a final, but sprinkled in among the experienced squad throughout the year. If we can't rotate at least one of the young kids in each week without risking the season then we are pretty much stuffed anyway.

Yeah, I see what you're saying and I agree.

However, I don't agree that this year is an example of that being an actual problem.

We did rest players. We didn't play Luke for 2 weeks earlier in the year after he reported calf tightness but no actual injury. We persisted with Sheridan and Crozier while Mzungu and DeBoer played a significant amount of WAFL time.

As with all things there is a balance here, and while I am happy with the argument about more rotation of your Weller/Blakely/Langdon/Grey through the team, i'm not buying the implication that doing so would have made a material difference to our flag chance this year or the game yesterday.

 

[smokingjacket]

Last years form? So no actual relevance to this year's footy? Rightio then.

That backline "held together by cello tape" has been very close to us in points against.
They lost their best two key defenders and their back line is functioning. They've had their best midfielder playing as a back man and as a ruck at times.
Their ball movement is far superior to ours. Those crabs Cripps and Hill regularly kick 2-3 goals a game.

Without going all Simmo here, you need to stop drinking the Kool Aid and look at actual performance/method rather than some imaginary fairy land put down on paper.

Same as why we lost last night. Our ball movement is shit, our basic skills are poor and it allows chip scabs like Rioli to go from being an anonymous passenger to winning the game

But that is precisely my point. Their system is better. Allowing them to play above the level of talent they have.