Review Round 12 = Collingwood 82-100 Western Bulldogs

[Bianconeri]

This is how the pros do it kids.

Thanks champ

 

[Mollythedolly]

A little i'll admit. However there is truth in many jokes

Haven’t found any in yours yet.

 

[Apples]

Hilarious to read intelligent posters so confidently stating we got it wrong at selection, and in the coaches box.

The arrogance is staggering.

Only six months off a flag and so many think they know better.

What a joke.

So you think it's arrogant to suggest Howe would be a better option than Johnson? Just about every media commentator predicted Howe would play forward tonight. Hell, even Freddy would have done better than Johnson.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Noble was having a dog of a game and probably contributed directly to the margin we suffered in the end, but surely there were like eight or nine other players you’d sub before him. What the ****

It was a weird scenario

You simply had to sub Noble because he was absolutely murdering us with his disposal

But at the same time, we subbed off an AFL fit player when we needed more AFL fitness and less VFL fitness

Again, put it down to poor coaching on the night. Sub off Bytel, send Markov back and bring Noble up to the wing where his disposal can't hurt you as bad and at least his run is useful

 

[Tarkyn_24]

It was a weird scenario

You simply had to sub Noble because he was absolutely murdering us with his disposal

But at the same time, we subbed off an AFL fit player when we needed more AFL fitness and less VFL fitness

Again, put it down to poor coaching on the night. Sub off Bytel, send Markov back and bring Noble up to the wing where his disposal can't hurt you as bad and at least his run is useful

Exactly.

It was a horrific game from Noble, no denying it. But he still presented an AFL fit body that could run out the game and have some defensive impact. We had about six other guys who were practically shadows on the ground. I’d take negative impact but showing signs of at least influencing the contest over the abundance of no impact types who showed no signs of influencing Jack shit.

 

[Pies_10]

The Noble sub was questionable IMO
I mean yeah he didn't play well but Bytel, McCreery, Harrison and Mcrae have us almost nothing all night.
Given all that however we unfortunately have tipped over the edge with injuries and tonight just ran out of Legs especially Nick who almost single handedly won us that game.

 

[Didak Wine]

Havent read the thread but I felt like the umpires effed us. The Josh one in the 3rd and then a few holding decisions could have gone our way that swung the game.

 

[larrikan]

Stop with the Frampton down back. We have no rucks. Cameron and Frampton. That's it. You want Cameron to go with English and Lobb all game?

We were forced to have Frampton ruck and rest forward. There was no other option. Would it be good to have Frampton on Darcy? Yes but Dean, Moore and Howe had that job. We don't play one on one in backline. And none of them could ruck.

We win games because we play roles and are a structured team.

When you say Frampton needed to be back then tell me who replaces Cox as second ruck tonight????




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[Tarkyn_24]

Stop with the Frampton down back. We have no rucks. Cameron and Frampton. That's it. You want Cameron to go with English and Lobb all game?

We were forced to have Frampton ruck and rest forward. There was no other option. Would it be good to have Frampton on Darcy? Yes but Dean, Moore and Howe had that job. We don't play one on one in backline. And none of them could ruck.

We win games because we play roles and are a structured team.

When you say Frampton needed to be back then tell me who replaces Cox as second ruck tonight????




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I think part of the answer to that is Kreuger over Johnson…

 

[barrackers]

Knew missing our chances in the first quarter would come back to bite us. We could have easily been 7-8 goals up at quarter time. Would have been handy, with a young 23 we need to be up by 5-6 goals going into the last quarter to be a chance. Young legs just tire too quickly with our game style.

Think it mistake was having Krueger the carryover emergency two weeks running. Difficult to pick with no footy for a fortnight, however he would have offered more than Johnson or Markov as key forwards and also allowed Frampton to stay back.

Was also surprised we didn’t give Johnson any ruck minutes.

 

[sr36]

None of the he should have played forward and he should have played back mattered. We got carved up in the midfield after quarter time. Backs were excellent to keep our nose in front for so long.

 

[nahnah]

Feels a bit like shuffling deck chairs on the titanic atm until we get at least a handful of players back. Our depth players are depth players they are not all suppose to be in the team together, there is a breaking point and we probably hit it this week

 

[Sea fog]

That’s way too harsh an assessment of Darcy but one thing for sure, I think we all underestimated how big an impact the loss of Murphy has had on him.

Darcy used to be able to zone off, intercept and rebound, safe in the knowledge that Murph would mop up any mess. But with Murph gone, Darcy has to play much tighter, which lessens his impact and exposes his weaknesses.


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Fair enough but Moore had 13 spoils, 8 intercept possies, 3 contested marks and 14 touches. TBH I cannot remember him getting many kicked on and I am a Moore detractor. I reckon our defence stood up well enough with the many inside 50s they got. So hard to keep defending them against giants.

 

[Mollythedolly]

They did not once try to impede him/block him or stop him getting over to Nick of which he was doing said tactics to Nick (some illegally and ump turned a blind eye to it).

Playing in the midfield, and hunting the ball or minding others is not specifically doing a defensive/physical job on Bontempelli.

Let’s face it, Pendles is the only player we’ve got who can reliably do the job you’re suggesting others should have been assigned. Not one of the players you’ve suggested do it has shown it is a strong suit in their repertoire. Crisp is the closest that we had out there but it comes at a too big a cost to his overall midfield contribution. The issue wasn’t that Bont was working over Nick, it’s that nobody else stepped up to fill the void. Missing Pendles, DeGoey and Mitchell doesn’t help that.

 

[barrackers]

Umpires are destroying this game… that was disgusting!!
Great effort from the lads to fight against them all night

Special shout out to Justin Power (4) who had a Leigh Fisher like game and John Howorth (17) who gave us nothing and the dogs everything late

 

[Mollythedolly]

We missed Framtpon at fullback…

Yep, but he was imho the best option we had to try and cover Cox’s role.

 

[sr36]

Even more reason to throw him forward

Nah backline was very good and kept our noses in front despite the midfield getting carved up for the last 3 quarters.

 

[larrikan]

I think part of the answer to that is Kreuger over Johnson…

In hindsight I agree. We can all agree Johnson was a mistake but they gave him an opportunity. Feels like it was a 50/50 call and Kreuger didn't look outstanding in VFL despite three easy goals. If Reef is available I'm not sure Kreuger plays next week either.


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[lenny20]

Krueger gives nothing more than Johnson. Probably less.

It's pretty clear you've made a hardline decision on Freddy and nothing is gonna change your opinion. But this is just plain wrong, and I'm amazed you'd defend the selection of Ash over Kreuger.

Kreuger is no world beater. And he isn't in great form in the VFL. And he will likely get injured in some new and novel way within 2 quarters of taking the field. But he's 100kg, genuine KPF height, and hits each contest with intent to kill somebody.

AJ is the size of a flanker and plays with less physicality than prime Ryan Lonie. He hasn't just played poorly in his three AFL outings this season, he's been as uncompetitive as anyone who has ever pulled on an AFL jumper. Seriously. He makes Adam Oxley at his worst look like Sir Scotty Burns by comparison. Something has gone horribly wrong with him, he's lost every ounce of his confidence he once had, he's just an absolute shadow of himself. I don't like to sink the boot in, but he was never the correct choice in this instance, and the way he played made that even more painfully obvious.

As for Freddy... if he gets a chance next week, all I ask is count the number of times he gets beaten. (You would have run out of fingers with Ash by quarter time tonight - he didn't compete and to be honest it looked he didn't care.) Kreugz might be limited, but he'd sooner kill himself with his kamikaze attack on the footy than let his man win a contest.

And before you ask - has he done this at AFL level?

Yes, in his only two injury-free games with us, against Adelaide and Brisbane in 2022, where he kicked 2 goals in each, tackled and competed with intent to hurt the opposition, and looked every bit a genuine KPF target.

And yes, he’ll probably get injured again.

And yes, he still would have been a better option than AJ.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

In hindsight I agree. We can all agree Johnson was a mistake but they gave him an opportunity. Feels like it was a 50/50 call and Kreuger didn't look outstanding in VFL despite three easy goals. If Reef is available I'm not sure Kreuger plays next week either.


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I get it too, but Kreuger was more likely to be capable of giving a chop out in the ruck, which in turn makes him a more valuable player than Johnson. The coaching staff obviously gambled the other way - that what Johnson would produce as a forward would surpass the benefit to having a more versatile option. They lost that gamble.

We had an option that at worst could chop out in the ruck at our disposal is more my point and we actively chose not to select them.

 

[sr36]

Fair enough but Moore had 13 spoils, 8 intercept possies, 3 contested marks and 14 touches. TBH I cannot remember him getting many kicked on and I am a Moore detractor. I reckon our defence stood up well enough with the many inside 50s they got. So hard to keep defending them against giants.

Moore and Howe were outstanding.

 

[barrackers]

They would have like Liberatore, Naughton, Richards, Weightman, Bailey Smith and not the 2 ingame injuries.

Agree that the coaching was underwhelming tonight.

Dogs still had their second choice players available whereas we’re onto our fourth or fifth in some positions. Doubt Markov would have ever been considered as potential key position forward depth in his career, yet he found himself in that role tonight

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Spot on.
Krueger gives nothing more than Johnson. Probably less.

We just don’t have the players available to win.

Probably less?

That would’ve been pretty much impossible.

 

[Mollythedolly]

So you think it's arrogant to suggest Howe would be a better option than Johnson? Just about every media commentator predicted Howe would play forward tonight. Hell, even Freddy would have done better than Johnson.

I personally would have played Kreuger over Johnson but to suggest with any degree of certainty that he’d have done better tonight is just purely speculative guesswork. Especially given Johnson’s record at senior level is superior to Kreuger’s.

We did see Howe move forward in the last and the footy never got there so it was clearly a poor move, and if you’re suggesting we should have done it all game in order to send Frampton back to defence then who gives Cameron a chopout?

 

[brysie]

My thoughts:

1. Another maybe game. I said at the start of the year, and after last week, that this is likely to be a nearly season. Top 4 is gone and we’ll be lucky to squeeze into the 8.
2. Twice in 2 weeks goal kicking has hurt us. Teams get momentum these days and it’s typically the team that capitalises the best that ends up winning the game.
3. Cooked or not, our 4th quarter efforts have been abysmal the last month or so. Personnel or not, the team needs to find a way to win, even if it means playing conservatively for patches in the preceding 3 quarters.
4. Noble showed why he was omitted for finals. Everyone makes errors but his tend to result in goals more often than not.
5. Johnson is a waste of space. Showed what he can do with a mark and kick to Sullivan in the 3rd, but other than that was anonymous. Similarly, Macrae is running out of time and excuses - one of the least effective players tonight who hasn’t shown enough at the level. If a team comes in for Macrae in the offseason they’ll do well not to lose their hand.
6. Free agency looms large. Open the chequebook and get Battle and Miller down back, LDU (if possible) and potentially gamble on a Lynch for a year or two. At least from tonight we had confirmation that Lobb is not the answer to anything.

Season is done, at least in any meaningful way. We’ll continue to have the odd shock result or win against the odds, but realistically we’re coming from a long way back. We’re a system team, so time to start experimenting gradually with some of the cogs in the system, even if it’s gradual.