Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[George]

Are the kids carrying us? Nas is playing very high level footy and Owens has been incredible but Sinclair, Crouch, Marshall, Wilkie, Wood would all be in our top players all year. Phillipou, Windhager, Caminiti, Byrnes types are all building up but they aren't winning many matches for us.

To me we are a not quite finished list. We don't need to knock down rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild of the rebuild. We need to start filling the obvious holes so that we aren't exposed and we then need to start moving out under performers for better players.

The emotional frustration is a waste of time. We need to focus and not go in seven directions at once. Part of the reason the kids can come in and perform well immediately is that the older players can help protect and guide them. The last couple of tries we have had to throw them to the wolves and that hasn't worked.

We still have a huge amount of players unavailable that would be able to play higher level footy than some of those kids if fit. Jones, Dmac, Hunter Clark, Coffield, Billings and Membrey. Even Jack Hayes is another that could have made an impact. Replace the under performers every week with some from this list and have a fit midfield and we are probably pushing top 4 sides.

Injury has actually helped develop a lot of youth but we have also had to make do which isn't ideal for performance. I would have been happy if you'd told me that were missing heap of players and still well entrenched in the top 8.

Our senior players are the ones consistently letting us down week after week whilst the kids like Owens Caminiti Pou Windy etc seem to have a more ruthless approach/mentality. There's no direction and leadership out there which is also on the senior players. They are usually the reason we are losing games. Our kids have injected some excitement and genuine skill to what used to be a pretty bland, beige group of players. Our older types should be invigorated by the youth coming through but they are simply just not good enough, resorting back to what they've done for many years now. There's no winning mentality in our senior players.

 

[MickG88]

I expected us to be Top 4 so I'm bitterly disappointed that we are only 5th with 113%.

I think the answer is to sack Ross, trade everyone out for a packet chips and trade in some duds who can't get a game in the other sides.

While we're at it I think we should drop Howard so we can play Sharman full time on Daniher or Hipwood because he made a couple of excellent spoils as the 3rd/5th up defender so clearly he's a key defender, then I'd drop Seb and Steele and bring in Hotton and Connolly (well they are the only fit "mids" available for selection)

Also we should look at Hinkley, doing a great job as part time cheerleader at Port. Probably a wise decision.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I will make it happen comrade

Surely we’re not as sensitive as the Carlton board. A few of us copped a week for the same thing a while ago.
I’d just ignore it personally. It’s an emoji, not a trash talking post.

 

[gringo2011]

I have to disagree with this. Just because he might change things in the midfield doesn't mean giving up.

And he isn't making changes for the sake of it. Ross has been out of form for 2 months. Steele has not returned fit either. Surely change is needed because at the present things aren't working as they should be for a variety of reasons.

He has some options to have a look at during this year of exploration. I'd rather give the likes of Bytel, Connolly, Sincs, Owens and even Stocker a chance to prove their wares in the midfield.
Yes there is a good chance that they don't show anything. But we'd be foolish not to have a look. Especially when 2 of our full time mids are out of form or injured. Steele would be lucky to be at 75% in such an even comp you can't be that far off it.

Bytel has a habit of being injured at the worst times. He has had concussions every time that Steele goes out. Also hard when Steele, Crouch and Bytel are all one position inside mids. Ross is able to play that outside role and his only real competition is probably Hotton, Connolly and perhaps at a stretch Paton.

Stocker and Sinclair are options but then we need to back patch the backline up. If we could get DMac, Jones and Billings back perhaps those types could put true pressure on those guys.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Are the kids carrying us? Nas is playing very high level footy and Owens has been incredible but Sinclair, Crouch, Marshall, Wilkie, Wood would all be in our top players all year. Phillipou, Windhager, Caminiti, Byrnes types are all building up but they aren't winning many matches for us.

To me we are a not quite finished list. We don't need to knock down rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild of the rebuild. We need to start filling the obvious holes so that we aren't exposed and we then need to start moving out under performers for better players.

The emotional frustration is a waste of time. We need to focus and not go in seven directions at once. Part of the reason the kids can come in and perform well immediately is that the older players can help protect and guide them. The last couple of tries we have had to throw them to the wolves and that hasn't worked.

We still have a huge amount of players unavailable that would be able to play higher level footy than some of those kids if fit. Jones, Dmac, Hunter Clark, Coffield, Billings and Membrey. Even Jack Hayes is another that could have made an impact. Replace the under performers every week with some from this list and have a fit midfield and we are probably pushing top 4 sides.

Injury has actually helped develop a lot of youth but we have also had to make do which isn't ideal for performance. I would have been happy if you'd told me that were missing heap of players and still well entrenched in the top 8.

Great post.
One of the best of this thread so far….imo of course!

 

[gringo2011]

Our senior players are the ones consistently letting us down week after week whilst the kids like Owens Caminiti Pou Windy etc seem to have a more ruthless approach/mentality. There's no direction and leadership out there which is also on the senior players. They are usually the reason we are losing games. Our kids have injected some excitement and genuine skill to what used to be a pretty bland, beige group of players. Our older types should be invigorated by the youth coming through but they are simply just not good enough, resorting back to what they've done for many years now. There's no winning mentality in our senior players.

I'm obviously not as down on them as you are at the moment. We have some players under performing and not much depth available. I reckon we've improved and are playing pretty well considering the available players.

To me we are probably around the level of Sydney, Essendon, Bulldogs, Geelong, Freo, Carlton, Crows, Suns and GWS. Fixture, injury, form etc will set the final ladder positions. Richmond have probably pushed up into this pool since Mini took over too.

I don't think our form is any worse than any of those sides and we haven't done it at the expense of development. I think I'm actually feeling quite optimistic at the moment. Apart from a bit of stress around list management I feel pretty confident that a more adult football department is in place.

 

[Saint Shags]

Bytel has a habit of being injured at the worst times. He has had concussions every time that Steele goes out. Also hard when Steele, Crouch and Bytel are all one position inside mids. Ross is able to play that outside role and his only real competition is probably Hotton, Connolly and perhaps at a stretch Paton.

Stocker and Sinclair are options but then we need to back patch the backline up. If we could get DMac, Jones and Billings back perhaps those types could put true pressure on those guys.

I'd rather throw Bytel in at the present and give Steele time to heal. If we make finals we have a fit captain and we've had ample opportunity to really see if Bytel is up to the standard after a good run at it.
Ross I'd replace with either Sincs or even Stocker. Gives us something different in the mids and we can cover one of those spots in the back with a Paton or Connolly.
Hell I wouldn't mind seeing Gresh get dropped. We could place one of them there instead of dropping both mids. Drop 1 mid and the underperforming HFF.

Bytel and Paton had 30 and 35 respectively on the weekend. They are putting the hand up. And after the weekend there shouldn't be any issue with putting some heat on our senior blokes. They seem to be the issue.

We have some moves available. I don't see why in what is being called a year of exploration that we don't at least have a look. Especially if the likes of Bytel and Connolly could be on the way out. Let's make sure!

 

[George]

I'm obviously not as down on them as you are at the moment. We have some players under performing and not much depth available. I reckon we've improved and are playing pretty well considering the available players.

To me we are probably around the level of Sydney, Essendon, Bulldogs, Geelong, Freo, Carlton, Crows, Suns and GWS. Fixture, injury, form etc will set the final ladder positions. Richmond have probably pushed up into this pool since Mini took over too.

I don't think our form is any worse than any of those sides and we haven't done it at the expense of development. I think I'm actually feeling quite optimistic at the moment. Apart from a bit of stress around list management I feel pretty confident that a more adult football department is in place.

Perhaps you're reading it differently - I'm actually optimistic about it too I just think there's areas we can improve and it's healthy to discuss the issues. We aren't perfect but we are most definitely better than last season and I trust us much more than I did last year. I think RTB will be able to arrest any form slumps, as evidenced by our WLWLWLWLWL record since Round 5. If this was under Ratten we probably lose games against Sydney & GWS for example. We used to roll over when challenged, we don't seem to do that anymore. There's more resolve there but clearly we can probably all agree the senior players are letting us down.

I had us 6th-8th at the start of the year so all complaining aside I'm happy with where we're at but also frustrated that we've blown genuine chances to move further up the ladder. I don't want to put a cap on us either so if we can finish higher then go for it. Losses against teams like Hawthorn kill us. In all honesty I believe we can sneak into 4th from where we're at now but we really just need to get it together.

 

[Saints TV]

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[AirWinmar]

Bytel has a habit of being injured at the worst times. He has had concussions every time that Steele goes out. Also hard when Steele, Crouch and Bytel are all one position inside mids. Ross is able to play that outside role and his only real competition is probably Hotton, Connolly and perhaps at a stretch Paton.

Stocker and Sinclair are options but then we need to back patch the backline up. If we could get DMac, Jones and Billings back perhaps those types could put true pressure on those guys.

It seems a bit crazy to me Owens hasn't got more time in the mids. Also crazy to keep saying Steele isn't injured. He is clearly hampered and I think it's putting a lot of stress on the other mids. Sincs has been getting a bit of a run thru. I can understand if they don't want to upset the backline too much moving Stocker out. Don't think we have been able to afford that.

 

[gringo2011]

I'd rather throw Bytel in at the present and give Steele time to heal. If we make finals we have a fit captain and we've had ample opportunity to really see if Bytel is up to the standard after a good run at it.
Ross I'd replace with either Sincs or even Stocker. Gives us something different in the mids and we can cover one of those spots in the back with a Paton or Connolly.
Hell I wouldn't mind seeing Gresh get dropped. We could place one of them there instead of dropping both mids. Drop 1 mid and the underperforming HFF.

Bytel and Paton had 30 and 35 respectively on the weekend. They are putting the hand up. And after the weekend there shouldn't be any issue with putting some heat on our senior blokes. They seem to be the issue.

We have some moves available. I don't see why in what is being called a year of exploration that we don't at least have a look. Especially if the likes of Bytel and Connolly could be on the way out. Let's make sure!

Bytel racked them up but from what I saw of the game Paton looked the best Saints player. He looked a level above most. He's probably the one I'd bring in first and send Sincs on ball. Maybe move Steele forward for more of the game. Perhaps Byrnes out and Paton on a wing otherwise.

 

[gringo2011]

Perhaps you're reading it differently - I'm actually optimistic about it too I just think there's areas we can improve and it's healthy to discuss the issues. We aren't perfect but we are most definitely better than last season and I trust us much more than I did last year. I think RTB will be able to arrest any form slumps, as evidenced by our WLWLWLWLWL record since Round 5. If this was under Ratten we probably lose games against Sydney & GWS for example. We used to roll over when challenged, we don't seem to do that anymore. There's more resolve there but clearly we can probably all agree the senior players are letting us down.

I had us 6th-8th at the start of the year so all complaining aside I'm happy with where we're at but also frustrated that we've blown genuine chances to move further up the ladder. I don't want to put a cap on us either so if we can finish higher then go for it. Losses against teams like Hawthorn kill us. In all honesty I believe we can sneak into 4th from where we're at now but we really just need to get it together.

I get it but there are half a dozen sides that are also better than last year so we aren't even competing in the same arena as 2022. Even Geelong off a premiership and Sydney off a GF are struggling with the evenness of the competition. Personally think half the teams in our pool are probably better lists too. Port and Collingwood look the only sides that are unlikely to drop games most weeks. Everyone else seems to be just as flaky due to other sides being as good as them.

Blowing chances hurts but realistically when you are matched against sides around your level you are going to drop few. Hawks was a **** up but it wasn't a disaster like when Essendon would demoralise us when we'd been cruising along. It looked like a classic clocked out a week early performance and didn't think they'd even try game. Hawks also knocked off Brisbane by 4 goals after they got us, they should have seen them coming.

 

[Sully111]

I reckon you get a few die hards on board, most fans are impatient. I think Melbourne were 10 years between prelims in their rebuild that was considered one of the worst of all time. We are coming up to 13 years since the last prelim and people are rightly sick of waiting. Telling them to wait another few years while we could possibly have improvement coming doesn't sound easy to sell.

Finals and bowing out is fine as long as we keep building the list and experience while we do it. I think the biggest danger is poor list management decisions as Sos goes chasing his old picks down and over paying for GOPs while cutting back our list without getting a decent return for them.

North have a fantastic pile of youth but it's a lot less palatable when you are bottom 4.

Trying to appease fans now won't get us a flag. It'll have the opposite effect.

This club needs a flag.

And if you can't see that Owens should be playing as a mid then I don't really know what to tell you.

 

[gringo2011]

Trying to appease fans now won't get us a flag. It'll have the opposite effect.

This club needs a flag.

And if you can't see that Owens should be playing as a mid then I don't really know what to tell you.

I'm pretty sure that they'll feed him in. I think they'll be seeing him as a long term star of the side and giving him time to build into the absolute star that he projects as. Throwing him into the midfield for a sugar hit seems to defy your own logic. A 19 year old expected to carry us on his back after 19 games sounds like fantasy stuff. It's not like he hasn't been performing and building confidence where he is.

It looks like they are giving him more time against lesser opposition which you'd expect.

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...

dfsaustralia.com

 

[Ads734]

I think Owens rucking is essentially him as a mid without needing to take out some line like Ross Steele or crouch.

 

[stfan]

I

I'm obviously not as down on them as you are at the moment. We have some players under performing and not much depth available. I reckon we've improved and are playing pretty well considering the available players.

To me we are probably around the level of Sydney, Essendon, Bulldogs, Geelong, Freo, Carlton, Crows, Suns and GWS. Fixture, injury, form etc will set the final ladder positions. Richmond have probably pushed up into this pool since Mini took over too.

I don't think our form is any worse than any of those sides and we haven't done it at the expense of development. I think I'm actually feeling quite optimistic at the moment. Apart from a bit of stress around list management I feel pretty confident that a more adult football department is in place.

I agree with both your posts in general.

But what we lack is some extra elite cream, and especially in the midfield. Steele also being out of form is a huge blow for us as our midfield lacks quality. It means that we really are playing with only one inform and capable mid in Crouch at present. And he really needs to be our second or third mid, not our first.

No team has a perfect 22.

Inject say a true gun mid into our 22, and a ruck who can win more hos and our team would be much more competitive.

 

[gringo2011]

I

I agree with both your posts in general.

But what we lack is some extra elite cream, and especially in the midfield. Steele also being out of form is a huge blow for us as our midfield lacks quality. It means that we really are playing with only one inform and capable mid in Crouch at present. And he really needs to be our second or third mid, not our first.

No team has a perfect 22.

Inject say a true gun mid into our 22, and a ruck who can win more hos and our team would be much more competitive.

Definitely. That midfield is totally exposed. In a year or two hopefully Owens and Windhager are pushing for full time mid roles and guys like Ross are playing at Sandringham hoping that they get back in through good VFL form and waiting for injury or form drop-off to get a run.

We lack depth and quality in the midfield but you can't just say that Owens an Windhager as full time mids will turn our season around. Kids generally lack the hardness, experience and confidence to take control of the midfield in their first couple of years. If you throw them in too early you can end up smashing their confidence. To me it looks like we are feeding them in. It's not like they haven't played them.

Throw Darcy Parish into the midfield next year and have some back up depth and we would be pushing top 4 sides IMO.

 

[Sully111]

I'm pretty sure that they'll feed him in. I think they'll be seeing him as a long term star of the side and giving him time to build into the absolute star that he projects as. Throwing him into the midfield for a sugar hit seems to defy your own logic. A 19 year old expected to carry us on his back after 19 games sounds like fantasy stuff. It's not like he hasn't been performing and building confidence where he is.

It looks like they are giving him more time against lesser opposition which you'd expect.

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...

dfsaustralia.com

I'm not saying he has to carry us on his back.

I'd like Sinclair in there too

The current group aren't getting it done

Do I think he'd handle himself well in the midfield? Yes I do. It has nothing to do with a sugar hit.

The 19 games thing is irrelevant.

 

[MordySaint]

Are the kids carrying us? Nas is playing very high level footy and Owens has been incredible but Sinclair, Crouch, Marshall, Wilkie, Wood would all be in our top players all year. Phillipou, Windhager, Caminiti, Byrnes types are all building up but they aren't winning many matches for us.

To me we are a not quite finished list. We don't need to knock down rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild of the rebuild. We need to start filling the obvious holes so that we aren't exposed and we then need to start moving out under performers for better players.

The emotional frustration is a waste of time. We need to focus and not go in seven directions at once. Part of the reason the kids can come in and perform well immediately is that the older players can help protect and guide them. The last couple of tries we have had to throw them to the wolves and that hasn't worked.

We still have a huge amount of players unavailable that would be able to play higher level footy than some of those kids if fit. Jones, Dmac, Hunter Clark, Coffield, Billings and Membrey. Even Jack Hayes is another that could have made an impact. Replace the under performers every week with some from this list and have a fit midfield and we are probably pushing top 4 sides.

Injury has actually helped develop a lot of youth but we have also had to make do which isn't ideal for performance. I would have been happy if you'd told me that were missing heap of players and still well entrenched in the top 8.

Agree, but then I think that things happen for a reason.

If the injuries hadn't of happened... Caminiti would still be in the reserves, Pou, NWM, Stocker would be in and out of the side.

I think it is the best thing that has happened.

I was sick of waiting for Jones, Dmac, Hunter Clark, Coffield, Billings, Hayes and Membrey to start performing consistently.

They have had their chance, time to finally invest in youth. If we start thinking those players will help us get into the top 4, then we have been drinking kool-aid for the last decade.

We are sitting 5th with a new look team and a chance to make these kids the cornerstones of our push to success.

 

[phantom13]

Are the kids carrying us? Nas is playing very high level footy and Owens has been incredible but Sinclair, Crouch, Marshall, Wilkie, Wood would all be in our top players all year. Phillipou, Windhager, Caminiti, Byrnes types are all building up but they aren't winning many matches for us.

To me we are a not quite finished list. We don't need to knock down rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild of the rebuild. We need to start filling the obvious holes so that we aren't exposed and we then need to start moving out under performers for better players.

The emotional frustration is a waste of time. We need to focus and not go in seven directions at once. Part of the reason the kids can come in and perform well immediately is that the older players can help protect and guide them. The last couple of tries we have had to throw them to the wolves and that hasn't worked.

We still have a huge amount of players unavailable that would be able to play higher level footy than some of those kids if fit. Jones, Dmac, Hunter Clark, Coffield, Billings and Membrey. Even Jack Hayes is another that could have made an impact. Replace the under performers every week with some from this list and have a fit midfield and we are probably pushing top 4 sides.

Injury has actually helped develop a lot of youth but we have also had to make do which isn't ideal for performance. I would have been happy if you'd told me that were missing heap of players and still well entrenched in the top 8.

I generally agree with this but id also note that no list should ever be considered finished.

Even the Hawks, Tigers and Cats were constantly evolving even when they were winning, there really never is a finished product.

 

[Remboy]

I

I agree with both your posts in general.

But what we lack is some extra elite cream, and especially in the midfield. Steele also being out of form is a huge blow for us as our midfield lacks quality. It means that we really are playing with only one inform and capable mid in Crouch at present. And he really needs to be our second or third mid, not our first.

No team has a perfect 22.

Inject say a true gun mid into our 22, and a ruck who can win more hos and our team would be much more competitive.

It’s a shame we didn’t land DeGoey last year. Would have made an enormous difference.

 

[MordySaint]

It’s a shame we didn’t land DeGoey last year. Would have made an enormous difference.

If we landed DeGoey, then I doubt the club would have made the decision to move to RTB

 

[Saintbloke]

Owens is a fierce competitor, but I don't see him a midfielder, more a half forward/ CHF- much more value in the forward half with his follow up efforts and goal-kicking sense. Paton, Bytel and Highmore need to be rewarded, as there were a few who just played quite poorly against the Tiges, and need to go out.

 

[Username Unknown]

Some thing I loved from this game was when grimes dropped one of our players. Pou, Nas and Windy were all there remonstrating. Owens, Stocker and Hammer are willing to fly the flag too. Along with King now playing with the aggression/swag of the main man.

It is exciting because previous seasons, no one flew the flag and teams knew they could push us around. Now our youngest players are all willing to play with pride, stand up for them selves and each other.

I can’t wait for each of them to go through a couple of pre seasons when they have the bodies to fully compete at the afl level. We will have some bulls in there.

Coming into the system or their second year with Ross, Harvey, Hayes, Enright and Goddard shaping your as a footballer/what it is to be a saints man. It is no surprise the attitude these boys are displaying.

You can see with the Pou. Once he has built up his strength. He is going to absolutely tear games apart offensively and defensively.

I am excited to see the type/quality of players we draft over the next couple of years. The new guy is doing well and roughy knows the personality it takes to be a star.

I am interested to see Keelers development. His down side was his competitiveness. From what you hear it is some thing that is improving by the week. When I watched sandy he was throwing his body around.

 

[Username Unknown]

If we landed DeGoey, then I doubt the club would have made the decision to move to RTB

Craig McRae read a book on adhd to understand de Goey and how to manage him.

If we still had Ratten, I doubt we would of got what he is producing this season out of him.