Autopsy Round 4, 2024: Richmond v St.Kilda

[Premium]

Another Saints rollercoaster combined with a ghost train, I was just relieved to get off that ride with a win rather than being excited about it.

A bad first half but at least we responded in the second half to grind out an ugly win, some of our older leaders stood up like Steele, Marshall, Sinclair and Wilkie and some good signs again from our youngsters like NWM, Sharman, Phillipou, Owens and Wilson was good late

We can't get ahead of ourselves though, we'll need to be a lot better against GWS next week to compete with them, they'll give us an audit.

The GWS game will give us a good look at this current 22 , there will be a fair few players attempting to play there best football knowing in a couple weeks we could well see a influx of experienced talent come back from injury - I feel at least 6 players could easily be out of the side if they can't make a statement why they shouldn't be dropped.

With Dow , Webster , Howard , Clark , Hayes and Windhager returning next week a few players might be feeling a bit nervous.

Of course the players named will need to get some match practice before there return but hopefully there return inspires the current 22 to perform.

and more pressure will be applied when Wood , Henry and Crouch are ready to come back.

We beat GWS with a depleted squad , it will point we will be in great shape when we get the players back.

 

[Premium]

Looks a lot like he's playing within himself ATM, which is understandable given his history. I'm just glad he's not injured right now.

He has missed a hell of a lot of football - 7 games in 2 yrs - fully expect him to get better if he can stay on the park , I doubt he will be playing within himself because he is basically playing for a new contract , if he doesn't produce the the form required he is not going to have a contract next year.
We are only starting to see Sinclair , Steele and Wilkie get back to there best so Jones can be given a little be of leeway considering how much he has played.

Jones is not the only player who will be trying to impress this year with Seb Ross not having a contract after this year along with Butler , Wood , Membery , Webster , Howard , Stocker , Battle , Paton , Byrnes and Sharman.

 

[Premium]

Agree but when will that happen? Our history suggests a full and fit list will rarely occur. I said a few weeks ago that with a fully fit side we are a borderline top 4 side, but we never get that and dont have the list depth to fill those holes. So what we see NOW is where we are at and thats a bottom 6 side with the current availability. Its simply not realistic to believe we are going to get all these players back and not lose other players along the way.

Plus we currently are playing a number of players who are out of form and if we had a full list available they would be ommitted, but the reality is we dont! So we are forced to play kids who are not ready and out of form players which further highlights us being a struggling side.

Generally you can expect injuries as the season goes along - contact and fatigue wise but we have commenced the past few seasons with far too many players unavailable. Top sides can usually cope with one or two first 23 players out, but not as many as we have. For us to be a quality side something needs to change with our player training loads and injury management. Im sure the club would prefer things to be different, but given what RTB and Misson have quoted in the media they are not being honest and are trying to hide the real issues. The club have said they want to become a high energy quick running team and the new recruits all notice how much more running they do at the Saints. I simply believe in our effort to get to those running levels we are over loading players which leads to injuries.

Our consistent injuries have considerably changed my outlook on our chances this year. Its early in the season to be writing us off, but I have a pessimistic view of the season ahead. With our draw and injury/suspension list, I dont expect us to win more than 4-5 games leading into the round 15 bye. Thats leaves us with a max of 7 wins with 7 rounds to play. Its early days but we have a number of long term injuries and even then players take weeks to get up to pre injury levels. Butler is the perfect case in question. So Im projecting the injuries/suspensions have snuffed our season hopes of playing finals.

We will get a number of games into the kids so its not all doom and gloom, but footy is really about playing finals and unfortunately I dont see that this year.

We will never get a full list to pick from but we currently have around 9 experienced players out with injury and you would expect to get at least half of them back with other injuries occurring - guys like Henry , Crouch , Wood , Howard , Clark , Webster , Dow to me would automatically come straight back in when match fit.

Comparing us to last year we had players who were out injuried on our list that had no chance of playing - DMac comes to mind with Hayes , Jones , Membery , Billings on top of the injuries to Steele , King , Howard etc.

 

[Otiman]

Jones is not the only player who will be trying to impress this year with Seb Ross not having a contract after this year along with Butler , Wood , Membery , Webster , Howard , Stocker , Battle , Paton , Byrnes and Sharman.

Ross making a good play at it. His best season in some time. Battle and Stocker in the same league.
Byrnes and Sharman are about 'par' (1 year extension territory)
Membrey output below par
The remainder injured or suspended

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Number of players used each year / Least games of the 22 most played / ladder / Notable players who didn't play most games.

2008 37 / 12 ( McQ, C Gardiner)/ 4 / Michael Gardiner, Maguire
2009 30/ 15 (Gwilt, Geary) /1 / Dempster, Maguire Clarke
2010 33/ 15 ( Roo , Baker )/ 3 / Dempster, King
2011 38 / 12 (Blake) / 6 / Michael Gardiner, Hayes, Geary
2012 34/ 12 ( Stanley, Cripps) / 9 Schneider
2013 39/ 10 ( Lee, Milera, Saunders) / 16 / Koschitski, Blake, Fisher, Gilbert, Schneider
2014 42 / 11( Webster) / 18 / Bruce, Geary, Roberton, Fisher, Hickey, Gilbert
2015 38 / 11( Hickey, Gilbert, Delaney ). / 13 No-one
2016 35/ 11 ( Webster, McCartin ) / 9 Carlisle, Longer
2017 34 /15 ( Stevens ), 10, Hickey, Armitage, Dempster
2018 40 / 11 ( Gilbert, Lonie, Rice ) 16 Stevens, Bruce , Roberton, Longer
2019 38 / 11(Hind) / 14 Carlisle, Webster, Steven, Hannebery, Geary, Armitage, Longer, McCartin, Roberton
2020 34 /12of 19 ( Sinclair ) / 6 Gresham, Hannabery, Roberton, Brown , Webster
2021 39 /13 (Highmore, Bytel,Marshall, Clark, Jones ), 10 Ryder, Wood, Carlisle , Gresham, Geary, Hannabery
2022 35 / 12 ( Ryder, McKenzie ) , 10 , Clark, Billings, Hannabery, Geary
2023 32 / 17 ( Ross , Webster ) , 6 , King , Membrey, Jones , Billings.

Remarkably last year, Despite injuries to significant players, 22 players played in 17 or more games.
The only time we finished number 1 in the time frame corresponds to us using the least number of players.

 

[g_TRAIN]

The thing that impressed me on the weekend was seeing King leading hard straight at the kicker and taking marks at full stretch with hands way out in front of his face. Impossible to stop without giving away a free kick.

Pity it was Ben and not Max.

Ben King had 3 disposals. He's averaging 6 per match for the year. (About the same over his whole career)

Max is averaging 15 per match and is also ranked elite for marks and contested marks.

I don't think Ben gets as much on the lead as you think. He just finishes his work better than Max

 

[bergholt]

The club have said they want to become a high energy quick running team and the new recruits all notice how much more running they do at the Saints. I simply believe in our effort to get to those running levels we are over loading players which leads to injuries.

Should our focus be short term or long term? Presumably short term it's better to have light training loads which leaves the largest amount of energy for match day, but it won't build up their fitness to higher levels. Long term it's better to flog them now and those that are left in two years will have huge tanks to work with. Which is your preference?

 

[BrutThough]

Ben King had 3 disposals. He's averaging 6 per match for the year. (About the same over his whole career)

Max is averaging 15 per match and is also ranked elite for marks and contested marks.

I don't think Ben gets as much on the lead as you think. He just finishes his work better than Max

Max has also had 10 more score involvements this season despite missing a game.

You'd think by now people would stop trying to compare him to his brother as away to put him down since he is rated above Ben in almost every metric.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Ben King had 3 disposals. He's averaging 6 per match for the year. (About the same over his whole career)

Max is averaging 15 per match and is also ranked elite for marks and contested marks.

I don't think Ben gets as much on the lead as you think. He just finishes his work better than Max

Didn't say Ben was better player than Max but his leading technique is way better than Max's.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I'm telling youz all now. Bing will be surplus to needs at GC by the time he hits FA.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Didn't say Ben was better player than Max but his leading technique is way better than Max's.

Fair enough and probably true.

Just think some people are a bit too critical of Max, he's going ok.

The goals have not come yet this year but there has been obvious growth in his game in other area's.

 

[Diehard Saint]

No problems, you have a right to your views
I purposely waited 24 hours and then only watched the second half, because honestly I couldn't stomach the first. This in itself would skew my view.
However a couple of things. I don't know how you could call either team bottom six. Richmond beat Sydney and nearly beat Carlton. We beat Collingwood and nearly Geelong.
Neither team are bottom six.

Goal scoring, we were putrid in the first half but kicked 8 in the second, restricting Richmond to 4. In fact after qtr time restricting them to 5 goals in 3 qtrs.

I thought skills were fine on a sub standard ground especially in the second, pressure was on and the lack of space made it difficult for both teams.
Finally there was some spectacular play from both teams. The run down HTB by Rioli, the three step shuffle of Battle, the great defensive play by Nankervis and Wilkie, the sublime kicking of Bolton, the miracle goal of King and the clutch goal of Bonner.
My most enjoyable experience of the desperate last minutes was the absolute heroics of Wilson, drops the ball in the 50, two Tigers bearing down has the calmness and skill to knock the ball forward to a team mate saving a goal and only seconds later making a ferocious tackle inside 50 to earn a HTB.
God yes tonnes to work on, however I just watched dispassionately and it was a cracking second half.


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Yep.
Watched the second half only too last night. Lots of good moments, and tbh although the start was dreadful they showed a lot of resilience to first get it back on level terms and then draw ahead.

I never expected it to be a walk in the park - it’s disrespectful to a team with some very good players.

So we’ve lost two close ones, and won two pretty close ones.
Lots of improvement and best 22 players to come, but overall I’m not too disappointed. I guess I have a lot of trust in Ross. He brought in the aliens and turned everything right around!!

Seriously though, he got them up and playing totally differently after half time.

Is one half of footy good enough? Of course not, but I’ll take the 4 points, some lessons learned hopefully, and move on.

Really enjoying Wilson.

 

[austinnn]

I'm telling youz all now. Bing will be surplus to needs at GC by the time he hits FA.

I absolutely agree. Is there room for him in our fwd line?

I like Caminiti and Keeler and want to give then every chance of succeeding, but I'd say getting Bing as a FA is something we've planned to do. Not our highest priority though. Hopefully he can bring Ando down with him

 

[ScrappyDo]

I absolutely agree. Is there room for him in our fwd line?

I like Caminiti and Keeler and want to give then every chance of succeeding, but I'd say getting Bing as a FA is something we've planned to do. Not our highest priority though. Hopefully he can bring Ando down with him

Post Membrey anythings possible. Perhaps Coops can grow into Wood's role, Members retires and we have a spot for him.

 

[Premium]

Max has also had 10 more score involvements this season despite missing a game.

You'd think by now people would stop trying to compare him to his brother as away to put him down since he is rated above Ben in almost every metric.

Fully expect Max to kill it in one of these games , atm he is playing high forward and he is averaging 15 disposals a game - if he played deep forward and he picked up 15 disposals he would be kicking 10 goals.
Once they get another contested marking forward who can split packs and take a mark watch out - hopefully Haynes can be the player to take a bit of get off him - Hammer will get there but not atm.
Having Haynes giving Marshall a cut out will also get Marshall a bit more time forward causing massive headaches for every team we play.

Having King , Marshall , Haynes and Membery as contested marking targets will win us many games.

Lets just hope Haynes comes good.

 

[Premium]

Post Membrey anythings possible. Perhaps Coops can grow into Wood's role, Members retires and we have a spot for him.

To me Sharman is ready to take Membery's role , Wood will be around for a few more years with his elite fitness - going by Bilcavs he could be at the top of his game for at least 3 or more years.
The guy I hoping to get a crack is Keller , his has the ability to be anything - may be a few years away but will be more than a player.

Hard to speculate who will be in the team when you get depth like we have now.
Guys like Henry , Owens , Windhager , Wilson , Phillipou are all exceptional talents and when you have guys like King , Higgins , Butler , Membery , Sharman and perhaps Haynes forward it is going to put a squeeze on who we can fit into the team because with Steele , Crouch , Clark , Dow , Ross , Byrnes all fighting to play in the midfield and with all the rotations expected we will not be able to fit everyone in - of course there will be injuries but we now have the depth to be a force even if we are not showing it at the moment.

 

[saintmike65]

I absolutely agree. Is there room for him in our fwd line?

I like Caminiti and Keeler and want to give then every chance of succeeding, but I'd say getting Bing as a FA is something we've planned to do. Not our highest priority though. Hopefully he can bring Ando down with him

It was a plan of Lethlean…now he’s gone I doubt getting Ben King is on anyone’s agenda

 

[moirae42]

Fully expect Max to kill it in one of these games , atm he is playing high forward and he is averaging 15 disposals a game - if he played deep forward and he picked up 15 disposals he would be kicking 10 goals.
Once they get another contested marking forward who can split packs and take a mark watch out - hopefully Haynes can be the player to take a bit of get off him - Hammer will get there but not atm.
Having Haynes giving Marshall a cut out will also get Marshall a bit more time forward causing massive headaches for every team we play.

Having King , Marshall , Haynes and Membery as contested marking targets will win us many games.

Lets just hope Haynes comes good.

He's playing absolute career best.
The way he is presenting....

I'm actually really impressed with his workrate. I have been critical in the past, but he's actually a bit of a machine.

 

[ScrappyDo]

It was a plan of Lethlean…now he’s gone I doubt getting Ben King is on anyone’s agenda

The thing is, it doesn't need to be.
Ben would get more money elsewhere so coming to StKilda would be an emotional decision and hopefully we'll be in the window by then which would help the cause.
"If" he wanted to come and would take unders then the club would simply not refuse the opportunity.
We have the KPP cattle to see us through to that point.

 

[Premium]

He's playing absolute career best.
The way he is presenting....

I'm actually really impressed with his workrate. I have been critical in the past, but he's actually a bit of a machine.

For someone his size to have the mobility and prepared to contest he is one of a kind.
Someone said he is no Lockett but more of a Finlayson - which I found hilarious because they are both polar opposites and King has more in his kit bag than both - not to put down Lockett but King can play CHF , FF and even given a role as a ruckman and would excel at all of them.
Lockett was a FF and was the best there has ever been and anyone expecting him to be another Lockett needs medial help.

King at 23 after a spate of injuries the past few years is just finding his feet again and is going to be one of our most dangerous players due to his versatility.

 

[Parkysp]

It was a plan of Lethlean…now he’s gone I doubt getting Ben King is on anyone’s agenda

I actually like Max as a roaming CHF up to the wing player who can then use his running to come back and get deep if the play dictates.

A leading FF in Ben for the next decade to me would fit well. Especially as Max's delivery from the wing into the forward line is close to our best.

Not sure it gets done but I'm also not sure if it's off anyone's agenda as attracting an elite player for the next decade can't be too wrong.

 

[Premium]

The thing is, it doesn't need to be.
Ben would get more money elsewhere so coming to StKilda would be an emotional decision and hopefully we'll be in the window by then which would help the cause.
"If" he wanted to come and would take unders then the club would simply not refuse the opportunity.
We have the KPP cattle to see us through to that point.

If he wanting to come home great but I really feel we have a star developing at Sandringham - Keller could easily be a star - like a Buddy Franklyn but can take a contested mark.
Let him grow into his body and we will have a hell of a player.

 

[ScrappyDo]

If he wanting to come home great but I really feel we have a star developing at Sandringham - Keller could easily be a star - like a Buddy Franklyn but can take a contested mark.
Let him grow into his body and we will have a hell of a player.

So say all the track watchers too. They also say he's years away. Personally l see him as a Ruck Forward prospect, not a KPF/D

 

[bergholt]

I reckon we should push Hammer in the direction of ruck/forward. Give him heaps of work in the ruck and on his tank, his forward craft is ok and will get better with more strength. If he can be a serious 2nd ruck - or maybe even 1st! - then he’ll be absolutely invaluable.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Should our focus be short term or long term? Presumably short term it's better to have light training loads which leaves the largest amount of energy for match day, but it won't build up their fitness to higher levels. Long term it's better to flog them now and those that are left in two years will have huge tanks to work with. Which is your preference?

Obviously I am just making an educated assumption re player loads. Hopefully the sports scientists at the club have a grip on things and have realised we might have pushed too hard too early.

Dont soft tissue injuries leave scarring and make the player more prone to further injury? Im sure thats the last thing the club would want with a player like Liam Henry and others.

Again I am guessing but I doubt what you have suggested Berg is the reality.