Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[Ephemeral Hope]

I liked what I saw of Jack Hayes but as a centre bounce ruckman we might as well put butler in there.

Yep hayes was playing as a “ruck” at sanfl level the same way Owens is a ruck. He’s tall enough to just manage halving the contest and racks up numbers just playing as an extra mid. That’s why he had such high numbers for a “forward/ruck”

 

[gringo2011]

I cant imagine what that role would be given he doesnt space anyone, doesnt defend and isnt getting or using the pill much.

It looked like he was running with players but so was Windhager and he looked a lot more like he needed minding back the other way. I though Ross was actually okay when the rain came but those dumb defensive mistakes show how poorly developed our players were back when he was coming through. That no-one ever taught him to stand goal side of the contest in all this time is an indictment on Richo and others who were moulding him as a kid. As Mowman said, it's not the first time he's done it. It gets highlighted on footy shows because it's such a fundamental thing to know.

 

[phantom13]

It looked like he was running with players but so was Windhager and he looked a lot more like he needed minding back the other way. I though Ross was actually okay when the rain came but those dumb defensive mistakes show how poorly developed our players were back when he was coming through. That no-one ever taught him to stand goal side of the contest in all this time is an indictment on Richo and others who were moulding him as a kid. As Mowman said, it's not the first time he's done it. It gets highlighted on footy shows because it's such a fundamental thing to know.

Unless hes meant to space or receive (in which case we need a sweeper). Its a little bit oversimplified to just say you should always be goalside of your opponent (I think Browny noted it on the Sunday footy show but also prefaced with "i dont know how the saints set up" which is absolutely right).

He was okay, he generally got that it becomes a territory game alot quicker than others.

I also think youre only ever gonna notice the lapses, he might have been goalside all game until that one so i wont slam him for it but again, he needs a role, he was really good last year but it was as a receiver. I think thats a huge problem too (and one that Carlton has alot of) some guys need to be role players but wanna be superstars, Dougal screams that to me, wants to be Darcy Moore but it really more Simon Prestigiacomo.

 

[Yawkey way]

Perhaps he's playing a role but it doesn't look good from the outside.

I’ve been a ross fan and defender over the years but he’s been lazy lately and that footage from a senior player was just unacceptable. I thought he was good early in the year but his form like the team has dropped off, he’s never really hurt teams going forward so his defensive effort is critical Imo. On a wet night when we needed a couple of our experienced mids to fire only crouch turned up imo.

 

[Saintbloke]

I’ve been a ross fan and defender over the years but he’s been lazy lately and that footage from a senior player was just unacceptable. I thought he was good early in the year but his form like the team has dropped off, he’s never really hurt teams going forward so his defensive effort is critical Imo. On a wet night when we needed a couple of our experienced mids to fire only crouch turned up imo.

The three best players on the night were basically Richmond mids- easily. I interesting to see how Lyon solves this puzzle.

 

[PostmanBish]

All I will say is at least our PLAYERS SHOWED UP. Shocking turnout from our supporters

I ended up having to watch the game from the comfort (HA!) of a hospital bed ... so I was surprisingly objective by the end of the game ...

I think we proved we're a dreadful wet weather team ... maybe we need to run some sessions under sprinklers at RSEA to tidy it up and figure out how to make our team work in the wet.

I had hopes we would be able to weather the storm and claw our way back into it if it stayed dry, but once the rain started, I figured the experienced Richmond players would drag them home.

 

[malevu]

Howard had the highest disposal efficiency on the ground (both teams). 14 disposals @ 85%. Go figure.

 

[SaintSlayer]

Perhaps he's playing a role but it doesn't look good from the outside.

i believe we lost because of unnecessary turnovers resulting in goals in the back 50 metres, especially on the point line resulting in at least 2 goals, allowing Short to drift forward to kick 2 goals, not adapting to the wet conditions quick enough, allowing Richmond to retain a spare player in the back line, 3 - 4 Saints forwards flying for a mark leaving Richmond with spare players at ground level, and finally Vlastuin be allowed to mark uncontested in the wet.

 

[Saintbloke]

I ended up having to watch the game from the comfort (HA!) of a hospital bed ... so I was surprisingly objective by the end of the game ...

I think we proved we're a dreadful wet weather team ... maybe we need to run some sessions under sprinklers at RSEA to tidy it up and figure out how to make our team work in the wet.

I had hopes we would be able to weather the storm and claw our way back into it if it stayed dry, but once the rain started, I figured the experienced Richmond players would drag them home.

Hey PostmanBish, hope you're doing ok- I tell ya what, Richmond didn't change anything much with the wet weather, we just got in front early and a few of our guys in the forward half especially, took the foot off the pedal( Butler excepted), defensively and offensively, and that was all it took.

 

[PostmanBish]

Obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion but I’d have given most of my appendages to have either (or both) in saints colors on the field.

Ruthless and aggressive contest beasts. Selwood and Cotch have 4 flags as captains which is 3 more than every saints captain combined. Never understood the hate for either, both first ballot hall of famers and genuine legends.

My old orchestra director at Uni walked into our first rehearsal, shut the door, and said "In life, you can generally choose between being liked, and being respected ... I don't care if you like me, but you WILL respect me by the time we're done."

I dislike Selwood and Cotchin intensely (particularly when they play against us) ... but respect in spades for their captaincy and achievements - none of that stuff is a fluke.

 

[gringo2011]

Unless hes meant to space or receive (in which case we need a sweeper). Its a little bit oversimplified to just say you should always be goalside of your opponent (I think Browny noted it on the Sunday footy show but also prefaced with "i dont know how the saints set up" which is absolutely right).

He was okay, he generally got that it becomes a territory game alot quicker than others.

I also think youre only ever gonna notice the lapses, he might have been goalside all game until that one so i wont slam him for it but again, he needs a role, he was really good last year but it was as a receiver. I think thats a huge problem too (and one that Carlton has alot of) some guys need to be role players but wanna be superstars, Dougal screams that to me, wants to be Darcy Moore but it really more Simon Prestigiacomo.

Fair call. Ross has always been better as that receiver mid and his worst season was when they moved him to a half back rebound role. Carlton definitely have way too many similar types of inside mids played out of position.

 

[phantom13]

Fair call. Ross has always been better as that receiver mid and his worst season was when they moved him to a half back rebound role. Carlton definitely have way too many similar types of inside mids played out of position.

Ross might need to play a different role in the twilight of his career, or he might still be best suited to that role, i dont know but right now it seems like the team dont know and thats the issue.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We should have been drafting replacements 4 years ago. Gags and whoever the dickhead before him stuffed up a lot of list management calls. It's hard to replace someone unless you have an upgrade available. We probably need to offer a million bucks over 5 years to get Parish when we could have drafted our own years back. As much as everyone wants Gresham, Ross and even some calling for Crouch to go, we would be bottom 4 instantly with Steele, Bytel, Windy and Owens as our midfield set up. That's a more inexperienced set up than West Coast and North are going in with.

List management needs to be looking 3 or 4 seasons ahead, we are always trying to patch up a leaking boat and not lose ground. Now we are back trying to poach a gun mid and hope that we can find a few cheapies in other side's bins or stuck with a very threadbare midfield that is one injury off collapse.

We had too many retiring that we couldn't replace them quick enough.
Then you can get them when you need them.

Players like Cotchin have been on the Tigers list for 15 years.
If you manage to draft 2 good players a year, and they last a decade, you have most of a best 22.

We keep trying to shortcut the system. Yeah sure the draft can be hit or miss , but so can trading and drafting mature age players.

2011: Terry Milera, didn't work out but would probably be retired (35) by now if he had. A player we drafted
Saad would be at least close to retiring ( 33) . Players Ross and Webster are still playing.

2012: We traded in Hickey, Lee , and Dennis-Lane. Only Hickey is still playing .
2013: Traded out McEvoy who was still playing last year ( so much for trading out the old for a younger model ).
We traded in Delaney , long since retired, Savage, retired, Longer, retired, Bruce still playing.
2014: We picked up Membrey for nothing , still playing.
2015: We got Freeman and Carlisle , both retired from AFL footy.

There are others like Logan Austin who seemed to be trade for the hell of it.

Of all those trades , only Membrey is still playing for us.

They are a sugar rush, that only lasts a short time, and just as likely to mess up as a draft pick.

If you drafted a good player in any of those drafts you'd probably expect that player to be still going.
Even neckbeard Francis is playing better footy than Carlisle now.

Please use trades for glaring gaps only, don't try to build a team out of trade picks.

 

[jwikked]

Wow - interesting post. I'll repeat the facts

We are 5th, we do have 113%, we are two games clear of ninth, Cooper Sharman will not play as a full back on Daniher or Hipwood next Friday night and Hotton and Connolly will not replace Seb or Steele.

As for getting better, the answer is clear

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PS - a little reminder for you

"We will have zero tolerance for posting that is designed to make other posters time here less pleasant or generally bring the tone of the board down.
This can include:

Any kind of abuse/denigration of a fellow St.Kilda poster (even if in retaliation).

Bullying.

Disruptive posting.

Undermining mods in doing their jobs.

Trolling other posters by way of either posting or reacting ("like", "laugh", "wow", etc) to their posts.

In short, treat others the way you wish to be treated even if you feel they are not treating you that way."

Don’t be so sensitive

 

[MordySaint]

Howard had the highest disposal efficiency on the ground (both teams). 14 disposals @ 85%. Go figure.

Goes to show how iffy statistics are sometimes.

Most of his possies are when he takes the most risk adverse decision possible. i.e handball or kick backwards when under no pressure.

When he has situation which he has to execute perfectly and he has no option to take the easy way out, that when there are issues.

 

[malevu]

Further to my other post -
Disposal efficiency v Richmond
Howard 14 disp @ 85% efficiency
* highest on the ground (both teams)
Battle 15 disp @ 73% eff.
Wilkie 17 disp @ 58% eff.

Other notable Saints-
Sinclair 31 disp @ 77%
Crouch 33 disp @ 66%
Phillipou 18 disp @ 72%
Lowest on the ground (both teams)-
Gresham 16 disp @ 31%

So much for stats.

 

[phantom13]

Goes to show how iffy statistics are sometimes.

Most of his possies are when he takes the most risk adverse decision possible. i.e handball or kick backwards when under no pressure.

When he has situation which he has to execute perfectly and he has no option to take the easy way out, that when there are issues.

Im pretty sure that any 40m kick, regardless of who marks it or who winds up with it, is considered an effective disposal.

He had the handball clanger so there is a good change everything else was just a bomb forward and we know hes got a leg on him.

 

[gringo2011]

Further to my other post -
Disposal efficiency v Richmond
Howard 14 disp @ 85% efficiency
* highest on the ground (both teams)
Battle 15 disp @ 73% eff.
Wilkie 17 disp @ 58% eff.

Other notable Saints-
Sinclair 31 disp @ 77%
Crouch 33 disp @ 66%
Phillipou 18 disp @ 72%
Lowest on the ground (both teams)-
Gresham 16 disp @ 31%

So much for stats.

Sinclair's class showed in the wet, he is such a brilliant user of the ball under pressure, having to pick up a wet ball below his knees with a player closing in on him, he still mostly hits his targets. He's an absolute gun.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I ended up having to watch the game from the comfort (HA!) of a hospital bed ... so I was surprisingly objective by the end of the game ...

I think we proved we're a dreadful wet weather team ... maybe we need to run some sessions under sprinklers at RSEA to tidy it up and figure out how to make our team work in the wet.

I had hopes we would be able to weather the storm and claw our way back into it if it stayed dry, but once the rain started, I figured the experienced Richmond players would drag them home.

Pretty sure that there was a training session last week, that someone attended and reported here, was wet weather.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

Wet weather footy is about gaining territory.
The effort was there but fmd I was pulling my hair out watching our players trying to pick the ball up with clean possession and fumbling or getting tackled. Pretty basic wet footy and definitely a win that got away there.

 

[MordySaint]

Sinclair's class showed in the wet, he is such a brilliant user of the ball under pressure, having to pick up a wet ball below his knees with a player closing in on him, he still mostly hits his targets. He's an absolute gun.

You can add the Pou to that. Wet ball skills reminded me of Winmar and his abilities in the wet.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Not sure smugly dismissing everyone's opinion has ever changed anyone's mind. Strange technique.
Anyways, I'm a lot clearer on what we need in the side after this season. To me Lyon was potentially playing a bunch of mature guys with very limited development. So far he's been bringing through more kids than Ratts or late stage Richo while still having us in the 8. There is a really fine balance between North who still have plenty of experienced talent and youth and sides like us.

I'm not unhappy with how it's going. We are a bet each way. Staying in contention for finals while bringing through youth.

I think that was Lethlean's model for this build. Have a competitive squad that plays finals while bringing through a lot of youth.

Port fans go feral at Hinkley but he's balanced that really well. They always have quite a few kids coming through and rebuild on the fly.

Is that you Ross?
(Because that's exactly what he meant by his year of exploration that some are having conniptions about.)

 

[Diehard Saint]

Didn't hear much talk of bottom 4 this season at the cub or with supporters, seems me that everyone was talking about our march to the finals, and now the gloss is wearing off, we will just flop around and probably drop out of the eight as the second goes on..much like last year

He clarified that he meant the external commentators.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Unlike years gone by I have a lot of hope going forward
Owens- NWM - Windhager- The Pou - Caminiti- King - Higgins
Lyon has played the kids every time he can. Saturday nights loss is on no one but the players. Howard and Wilkie gave up 5 goals from stupid mistakes

We could possibly carry Howard's mistakes, but when Mr Dependable Wilkie also gets in the act its a bridge too far.

 

[AirWinmar]

I expected us to be Top 4 so I'm bitterly disappointed that we are only 5th with 113%.

I think the answer is to sack Ross, trade everyone out for a packet chips and trade in some duds who can't get a game in the other sides.

While we're at it I think we should drop Howard so we can play Sharman full time on Daniher or Hipwood because he made a couple of excellent spoils as the 3rd/5th up defender so clearly he's a key defender, then I'd drop Seb and Steele and bring in Hotton and Connolly (well they are the only fit "mids" available for selection)

No lo e for Bytel? Come on Pebbles