Preview Round 14: St. Kilda vs Essendon, Docklands, 17/06/2022 @ 7:50 PM

[Lore]

At Marvel?

Yeah so I obviously forgot this and fair enough…





But now I’m wondering if we’ll do a Sydney, leave the lid open. We’ve done alright in the rain the last couple of times, trained for it etc.

Anyone know if we’ve been training with sprinklers inside the hangar this week?

That said, it was ****ing freezing last week. I don’t know why you’d inflict that on yourselves or your supporters on purpose.

 

[andleanback]

Saints could easily do us by 12 goals if they turn up in a mood and king has his radar on.

 

[eth-dog]

I believe the definition of blue collar as far as the club is concerned revolves around “care, commit, compete, celebrate” and “hard worker, disciplined, dependable” — which are the words on the walls of the club that they keep intermittently blurring out. Judging them by their own standards I’d say Ham meets that.

Nothing about being hard or soft or getting your head split open or running through a bloke, which I guess you might think of as blue collar if your closest experience with working class people is watching peaky blinders.

Blue collar is going when it's your turn, working hard both offensively and defensively. He fails hard at the first part.

 

[IHurley]

They certainly did, but like I said before, Ham’s running capacity might be of more value to us purely because of what everyone else doesn’t do. What’s the point in picking the extra tall if they’re going to be trailing their man in by 20 metres because the ball is flying in at a rate of knots?

I think we tread this tight rope often because we have a best 22 that is largely incapable of committing to the non negotiables and are just plain unfit.

If we were Freo fit for example I don’t think there is any way Ham would be getting a game but for us at the moment he’s the ‘endurance guy’ that truck calls upon when we need run.

I don’t think he’s a complete lost cause either by the way, wingers tend to come along a little later because they have to learn to stay away from the footy and younger players really struggle with that at times.

I'm pretty sure the least of Ham's problems is that he attacks the ball too hard.

I've always had a soft spot for him and I don't think everybody has to be Joel Selwood but his kicking is like Cutler. It looks good but is wholly ineffectual. Still, it's not like we have a stable full of superstars to choose from.

 

[Bombers36]

Shocked Ham continues to get a run - why..?? Then again we gift Kelly a 3 year deal and keep playing him as well when he does f.all so nothing really shocks me with this club now…what a sad state of affairs


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[VelvetSledge]

Shocked Ham continues to get a run - why..?? Then again we gift Kelly a 3 year deal and keep playing him as well when he does f.all so nothing really shocks me with this club now…what a sad state of affairs


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Your constant Kelly bashing is getting really long in the tooth.

He’s been far, far from our worst contributor.

 

[ghostdog]

They certainly did, but like I said before, Ham’s running capacity might be of more value to us purely because of what everyone else doesn’t do. What’s the point in picking the extra tall if they’re going to be trailing their man in by 20 metres because the ball is flying in at a rate of knots?

I think we tread this tight rope often because we have a best 22 that is largely incapable of committing to the non negotiables and are just plain unfit.

If we were Freo fit for example I don’t think there is any way Ham would be getting a game but for us at the moment he’s the ‘endurance guy’ that truck calls upon when we need run.

I don’t think he’s a complete lost cause either by the way, wingers tend to come along a little later because they have to learn to stay away from the footy and younger players really struggle with that at times.

So if I apply this rationale to Truck-Miyagi theory, Ham's inclusion as that endurance guy is one that is a beacon to others to run hard both ways. Ham is also the inspiration guy.

 

[CBombers17]

I don’t think it’s that straight forward.

BigFooty would like to see Hird debut for the romance of it, debut him before he’s delisted, with most who have watched him seem to be falling on the side of him probably not going to make it long term with the particular combination of physical traits and talents that he has.

The secondary argument is to reward effort in the VFL because that builds culture. But if you’re rewarding Hird’s effort then Ham’s effort sounds just as worth rewarding.

Ham is as blue collar as anyone and actually knows the patterns to run and where to be as a winger with 40 AFL games and 5 years of training under his belt. Given he lacks xfactor, his attitude and professionalism are the main things that keep him on the list.

The difference in the way they are being discussed on the forum is that one is a Hird (which turns average into promising) and one is a whipping boy (which turns a role player into spud), but it doesn’t make selecting Hird clearly better than Ham.

My main reservation with Ham is actually that his decision making with ball in hand is as slow as treacle. Like slower than Durham, Guelfi or Zerk-Thatcher.

But if you’re not playing Ham this week when you need a good foot soldier to play a role in a system then you might as well delist him coz he’s not here for any other reason at this point.

Personally I couldn't care less if another Hird plays for Essendon. But If, as you are saying, the definition of 'blue collar' can include avoiding physical contact then it's the dumbest thing the club has come up with in 150 years.

Deifinition of Blue collar - "relating to manual work or workers, particularly in industry". Even Essendon would understand that Blue Collar would include a willingness and ability to complete the physical aspects of a manual role - I.e tackling and taking physical contact in football - And if so reward blue collar effort and delitst anyone who can't or won't do it.

Edit; Guelfi should be the standard for a blue collar player at Essendon. Central to this is the capacity to provide a strong physical contest, the work ethic to get to the contest (or indeed 'run the patterns'), and follow the coaches instructions. These are 3 main elements required to be a blue collar footballer. The need for Physicality shouldn't really even be a discussion point.

 

[Zach Package]

I'm pretty sure the least of Ham's problems is that he attacks the ball too hard.

I've always had a soft spot for him and I don't think everybody has to be Joel Selwood but his kicking is like Cutler. It looks good but is wholly ineffectual. Still, it's not like we have a stable full of superstars to choose from.

I didn’t say he attacks the ball too hard, Ham’s issue is that he hasn’t got the fundamentals of being an outside receiver. He operates in the nothing zone of being too far away from a contest to impact it and too close to receive the ball in any meaningful space to do anything with it.

Kid can run and use it neatly enough but his positioning is horrendous at this stage of his career.

Like I said before, I don’t believe he’s in the side on merit, he’s in the side because we’ve identified we need extra legs and and if you look around the list, the cupboard is bare AF.

 

[MiguelM]

Shocked Ham continues to get a run - why..?? Then again we gift Kelly a 3 year deal and keep playing him as well when he does f.all so nothing really shocks me with this club now…what a sad state of affairs


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Speed at Marvel, we have no run would be the thinking IMO.

With the addition of D'Ambrosio & McGrath, hoefully we can break a line or two.

More perplexing for me is Waterman as the sub. Too slow for mine.

 

[TheGrizz]

Your constant Kelly bashing is getting really long in the tooth.

He’s been far, far from our worst contributor.

I would comfortably guess he would be top 10 in our BnF right now, if not top 5.

 

[faible]

I didn’t say he attacks the ball too hard, Ham’s issue is that he hasn’t got the fundamentals of being an outside receiver. He operates in the nothing zone of being too far away from a contest to impact it and too close to receive the ball in any meaningful space to do anything with it.

Kid can run and use it neatly enough but his positioning is horrendous at this stage of his career.

Like I said before, I don’t believe he’s in the side on merit, he’s in the side because we’ve identified we need extra legs and and if you look around the list, the cupboard is bare AF.

Outside players will never really look blue collar, no one would call Whitfield, Hill or Langdon 'blue collar' but that's the role they need to play. Ham's problem is that at VFL level he can be a genuine midfielder, at AFL level he can't so needs to play a proper outside role.

For all the criticism of Cutler, he knows how to hold his width properly and setup far enough away from stoppages not to get dragged in, but close enough to be useful.

 

[jmoo wan]

If the tradies that used to live next door to me are any indication, Bailey Smith

6

Bailey Smith

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

is the kind of Blue Collar player we want

 

[DapperDon]

Yeah so I obviously forgot this and fair enough…





But now I’m wondering if we’ll do a Sydney, leave the lid open. We’ve done alright in the rain the last couple of times, trained for it etc.

Anyone know if we’ve been training with sprinklers inside the hangar this week?

That said, it was ******* freezing last week. I don’t know why you’d inflict that on yourselves or your supporters on purpose.

Saints home game, doubt we get a say on the roof.

 

[Lore]

Outside players will never really look blue collar, no one would call Whitfield, Hill or Langdon 'blue collar' but that's the role they need to play. Ham's problem is that at VFL level he can be a genuine midfielder, at AFL level he can't so needs to play a proper outside role.

For all the criticism of Cutler, he knows how to hold his width properly and setup far enough away from stoppages not to get dragged in, but close enough to be useful.

Cutler tends to play more defence when he’s not on a wing. With McGrath back in the side and D’Ambrosio debuting I don’t think they think they need an extra in defence.

Then with Parish out, the time he would have spent forward wouldn’t usually be taken by McGrath. So they’ve chosen Ham as the smaller wing/fwd instead of Cutler as wing/def.

More perplexing for me is Waterman as the sub. Too slow for mine.

We don’t know who the sub will be yet, it’s only announced an hour before the game.

 

[Howard Moon]

maybe ham is going to play some type of role on hill

 

[faible]

Cutler tends to play more defence when he’s not on a wing. With McGrath back in the side and D’Ambrosio debuting I don’t think they think they need an extra in defence.

Then with Parish out, the time he would have spent forward wouldn’t usually be taken by McGrath. So they’ve chosen Ham as the smaller wing/fwd instead of Cutler as wing/def.

I meant more in terms of understanding how to play an outside role, Ham doesn't quite get the positioning right which makes him look worse than he probably should. Not helping that is that he plays as an onballer at VFL level so doesn't really practice it much at the lower level (plus iirc the wing role at VFL level is a bit wishy washy anyway).

He's a good athlete, generally OK user but behind guys like Durham and Langford on a wing who offer more.

Given our injuries to Snelling and Langford, that Smith is cooked, and Perkins / Hobbs / Shiel likely to pick up Parish's minutes on-ball Ham makes sense as a Cutler replacement.

 

[faible]

maybe ham is going to play some type of role on hill

Wouldn't be a bad idea, would have the athletic profile to stay with him OK, and might learn a few things about positioning as an outside player along the way.

 

[carloss]

maybe ham is going to play some type of role on hill

He might have played on him in the pre-season game?

 

[MiguelM]

Cutler tends to play more defence when he’s not on a wing. With McGrath back in the side and D’Ambrosio debuting I don’t think they think they need an extra in defence.

Then with Parish out, the time he would have spent forward wouldn’t usually be taken by McGrath. So they’ve chosen Ham as the smaller wing/fwd instead of Cutler as wing/def.

We don’t know who the sub will be yet, it’s only announced an hour before the game.

Cheers, saw on AFL site Medi-Sub next to his name.

Edit: my bad, he is listed as out. Medi Sub was last week, lol.

 

[Lore]

Personally I couldn't care less if another Hird plays for Essendon. But If, as you are saying, the definition of 'blue collar' can include avoiding physical contact then it's the dumbest thing the club has come up with in 150 years.

Deifinition of Blue collar - "relating to manual work or workers, particularly in industry". Even Essendon would understand that Blue Collar would include a willingness and ability to complete the physical aspects of a manual role - I.e tackling and taking physical contact in football - And if so reward blue collar effort and delitst anyone who can't or won't do it.

Edit; Guelfi should be the standard for a blue collar player at Essendon. Central to this is the capacity to provide a strong physical contest, the work ethic to get to the contest (or indeed 'run the patterns'), and follow the coaches instructions. These are 3 main elements required to be a blue collar footballer. The need for Physicality shouldn't really even be a discussion point.

Dude if you’re that determined to be upset about Ham playing a game of football then be my guest

I thought you wanted a genuine answer or discussion but every time you get an answer you find something else to interpret in the most antagonistic way and then be upset about.

He’s not replacing Guelfi. You can hold Guelfi up as a beacon of blue collar attributes if you want but it’s really immaterial.

If the question is “why was he selected ahead of Hird”, then you have your answer.

If the question is about his VFL form, then you have your answer.

If you want to know what the coaches value, then you have your answer.

On that basis selecting Ham is exactly what we should be expecting, and expecting anything else is setting yourself up to be extremely agitated for no real value.

Ham was best 22 last year, and has been emergency most weeks that he hasn’t played.

Hird is yet to debut and was emergency only once when literally everyone else was sick. He will debut when he’s good and ready.

And whether he’s good or not you should have Langford in to take up the post of whipping boy from next week.



And actually, Ham’s one of only 14 players who has played in both of our wins this year, and they both happened to be at Marvel. So there you go.

 

[Nick Daicos Fan]

Ridley or Kelly on King? Interesting selection

 

[Lore]

I meant more in terms of understanding how to play an outside role, Ham doesn't quite get the positioning right which makes him look worse than he probably should. Not helping that is that he plays as an onballer at VFL level so doesn't really practice it much at the lower level (plus iirc the wing role at VFL level is a bit wishy washy anyway).

He's a good athlete, generally OK user but behind guys like Durham and Langford on a wing who offer more.

Given our injuries to Snelling and Langford, that Smith is cooked, and Perkins / Hobbs / Shiel likely to pick up Parish's minutes on-ball Ham makes sense as a Cutler replacement.

And Cox, since he’s playing on a wing too lately. Guelfi is up forward so he’s not available for the wing either.

 

[Lore]

Ridley or Kelly on King? Interesting selection

Ridley or Laverde is a better question. Probably Laverde.

 

[faible]

And Cox, since he’s playing on a wing too lately. Guelfi is up forward so he’s not available for the wing either.

An experiment which we all hope ends and we can settle him as a KPP