Autopsy Round 15, 2023: St.Kilda v Brisbane *SPUD'S GAME* *CROUCH 150TH* *MARSHALL 100TH*

[CaptainRisky]

It is amazing how we looked like a well drilled team the first 5 or 6 rounds and now look like we're playing chaos ball. We're carrying a few niggles, but that doesn't account for a lot of the chaos ball we're playing.

I'm thinking maybe due to our success it's put expectation and pressure on and caused us to start playing like headless chooks.

In my view, forget about finals - just play the right way so it gets ingrained and let the results unfold

What success ,

 

[PandaG]

Like when I flew to Adelaide for gather round to watch Collingwood dismantle us. Really ruins the excitement of travel

Anyone that invests anything into a game, flight, tickets, seats etc….with the expectation we will beat a top 4 and is disappointed when the saints loose are absolute lunatics.

You clearly have no understanding of where our list is at.

 

[Dalsantowhatastar]

Our midfield is by far the biggest problem that we have at the moment. Constantly losing clearances puts the defence under the pump and it's all downhill from there. When we do manage to win a clearance, it's usually a quick kick that the opposition always seems to mark about 50-60m from goal. Surely our players are aware of this and take up front position?

The recruiting of our own midfielders over the last 10 years has been nothing short of disastrous. Where are the mids in the peak of the career (24 - 30 years old)? We have Steele (from GWS), Crouch (Adelaide) and Sinclair (rookie pick, moved from the HBF) that are the only ones that look anything close to AFL quality atm. Owens, Windhager, Phillipou will be consistent potential A grade midfielders in a few years time and will be good draft picks.

But over a 10 year period (2011 - 2021) we seem to have drafted no players that have even looked anything close to being a top line midfielder in the league.

 

[PandaG]

Mate, its been like this for years. It's a slow grind that's never fulfilling. Tonight we celebrated 2 goals for an entire half of footy wasn't it?

a. Gresham not doing enough
b. Midfield not good enough
c. Howard needs a spell, its kind of tiring watching his opponent lead with him 5m behind.
d. Brynes not doing enough
e. We just bomb it to our forwards, rather than lead up kicks.
f. Crouch blamed others when that short kick in the 1st or 2nd? quarter, to have a shot on goal. Classic.
g. We are playing far too slow. First rounds, were fast short kicks, handball, run through the middle. We don't do that anymore at all. Stagnant, boring, predictable, long high kicks to pack marks.

We'll lose to West Coast.

I would imagine Gresham will be dropped for Billings and Paton will be out for bytel

Jones and McKenzie didn’t look amazing for sandy

Max Heath isn’t far off though. Looks very good in the ruck.

 

[PandaG]

I can’t figure out why a big guy with his pace in playing so deep and locked in wrestling matches with gorilla defenders. Get him on the lead and keep moving, I might add he’s a massive kick so it’s even more puzzling. If that’s who we intend to use him then I’d cash out and trade him, name your own price someone will pay it. I’d prefer to use him properly but sitting it in his head is just a waste Imo.

You want to trade Max King..?

 

[aussierulesrules]

Max’s first markless game in his 65 game career. The only other one on the ground who didn’t take a mark was Darcy Fort

32

Darcy Fort

Age

31

Ht

204cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.6

2star

K

5.8

2star

HB

2.9

3star

M

1.9

2star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.2

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

3.2

2star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.8

3star

G

0.2

3star

D

7.6

2star

K

5.4

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

1.2

4star

, who they subbed on.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Pou and Owens to the mid because they’re mids.

Membrane and Sharman forward because they’re forwards.

Won’t win many but will form a foundation for the kids to build from.

Loved Paton pre-break but he’s no longer AFL standard. Byrnes never was.

Grab a proper leader in the offy if we can because we have a damp flannel for a captain atm and it will be a while until Owens/Windy/Pou are ready.

jj let’s drop all our capital on the two blonde wonders that will move us backwards sideways.

 

[AirWinmar]

What success ,

When we were winning at the start of the season.

 

[CaptainRisky]

When we were winning at the start of the season.

That's not success , if it is to you well you are easily pleased

 

[Yawkey way]

You want to trade Max King..?

No I don’t, I’d like to see him used properly. It’s just crazy what’s going on it’s like ordering a pint of Dom Perignon, it’s an affront.

 

[AirWinmar]

That's not success , if it is to you well you are easily pleased

Ok, that's obviously not what I meant. Understand your frustrated, but take it out on something else

 

[Klaatu]

Would rather cama to sandy, Marshall forward and Campbell in the ruck and then recruit another first ruck

Campbell got smashed in the ruck at Sandy by Wyllie Buzzer not afl standard.


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[denisp]

Take a few years to clear out some dead wood - kids look good

 

[beside the seaside]

Remember the moment where Windy had it in the middle of the ground and Gresh ran past demanding the handball. Windy gave it and Gresh did his usual atrocious kick forward for a turnover.

We have some players, not many but some, playing really selfish footy.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Ok, that's obviously not what I meant. Understand your frustrated, but take it out on something else

Well its what you said , anyway I'm not frustrated at all as iv seen the wheels falling off since about round 6

 

[Rockhead]

A pity we missed out on getting McQualter as an assistant coach as he could have been just the sort of guy we needed.

That ship may have sailed now though as he could end up with the Richmond senior coaching job full time with how well they are going under him.

Would rather cama to sandy, Marshall forward and Campbell in the ruck and then recruit another first ruck

Agree. Marshall is not a ruckman. Hes a ruckrover. Has no ruck craft

We have been ordinary & inconsistent since quarter time against Port. Up till then we had a clear game style that we implemented.

Generally speaking can’t fault the effort but the game plan has been picked apart/not been adhered to by the players. A number of key players are also down on confidence. This is compounded by the fact that due to injuries we have few AFL ready players to put on selection pressure - Bytel, Cordy (not an upgrade) & Campbell maybe (could have used Campbell last night!)

Ok so at the risk of starting WWIII here is my idiots guide to last nights team:

Sincs - our only A grader - B&F and AA lock - needs to be played as a mid wherever possible
Crouch- very good player - turns up every week- needs better explosive mids around him
Windy - busted a gut in Q3 last night - the future - needs continuity in the team as a mid
Owens- developing elite mid/forward
Nas - developing elite HBF
Pou - refer Owens just a season behind but needs to work on his speed
Marshall - poor tap ruckman but excellent around the ground - desperately needs a proper 2nd ruck/forward to give him assistance against the monsters (not Owens!)
King - generally been very good since he returned - needs better delivery
Butler- excellent small pressure forward who is giving everything
Higgo- generally pretty good & improved goal kicking
Hammer - got him for nothing - running out of steam as to be expected & u would probably give him a break if there was a replacement but has shown enough to think he could be a long term KPF
Steele- tried hard last night but not much influence - clearly playing injured but struggling big time - not convinced he is a leader- too one paced - can’t play Crouch, Ross & Steele all as mids at the same time
Gresham - never was or will be a mid - just a dangerous small forward on his day - poor disposal by foot and doesn’t tackle - if he goes at the end of the season - meh!
Webster- good last night & does a job most weeks
Paton - struggling - feels very sorry for him - that broken leg was a huge setback to his career
Byrnes - showed promise early but really struggling - not sure he will make it
Stocker - solid player - excellent pick up for nothing - hopefully more upside
Sharman - hard to get a read on him - won’t really know until he gets a good run at it at AFL level which may not happen
Wilkie - excellent player but now can’t get loose to play the key rebounding role which I think is a key as to why our system has broken down - down on confidence
Howard - too many dumb mistakes for an experienced player and just not a great key defender - not the future but nothing ready to replace him
Battle- decent but a bit undersized for playing on the monster forwards.
Hill - good last night and has been on a number of occasions this year & one of few elite users by foot - when he has a poor game gives the team very little
Wood - was excellent until he did his shoulder - playing jabbed up which has reduced his impact

Only 2 players would get a game at coll or port.. sinclair and king..if howard and byrnes are in best 700 players in the land, god help us when another team comes in

 

[Xxxx66]

Campbell got smashed in the ruck at Sandy by Wyllie Buzzer not afl standard.


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Campbell 40 hit outs and 121 fantasy points buzzer 7 ho's late in the game & 66 points.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We have been ordinary & inconsistent since quarter time against Port. Up till then we had a clear game style that we implemented.

Generally speaking can’t fault the effort but the game plan has been picked apart/not been adhered to by the players. A number of key players are also down on confidence. This is compounded by the fact that due to injuries we have few AFL ready players to put on selection pressure - Bytel, Cordy (not an upgrade) & Campbell maybe (could have used Campbell last night!)

Ok so at the risk of starting WWIII here is my idiots guide to last nights team:

Sincs - our only A grader - B&F and AA lock - needs to be played as a mid wherever possible
Crouch- very good player - turns up every week- needs better explosive mids around him
Windy - busted a gut in Q3 last night - the future - needs continuity in the team as a mid
Owens- developing elite mid/forward
Nas - developing elite HBF
Pou - refer Owens just a season behind but needs to work on his speed
Marshall - poor tap ruckman but excellent around the ground - desperately needs a proper 2nd ruck/forward to give him assistance against the monsters (not Owens!)
King - generally been very good since he returned - needs better delivery
Butler- excellent small pressure forward who is giving everything
Higgo- generally pretty good & improved goal kicking
Hammer - got him for nothing - running out of steam as to be expected & u would probably give him a break if there was a replacement but has shown enough to think he could be a long term KPF
Steele- tried hard last night but not much influence - clearly playing injured but struggling big time - not convinced he is a leader- too one paced - can’t play Crouch, Ross & Steele all as mids at the same time
Gresham - never was or will be a mid - just a dangerous small forward on his day - poor disposal by foot and doesn’t tackle - if he goes at the end of the season - meh!
Webster- good last night & does a job most weeks
Paton - struggling - feels very sorry for him - that broken leg was a huge setback to his career
Byrnes - showed promise early but really struggling - not sure he will make it
Stocker - solid player - excellent pick up for nothing - hopefully more upside
Sharman - hard to get a read on him - won’t really know until he gets a good run at it at AFL level which may not happen
Wilkie - excellent player but now can’t get loose to play the key rebounding role which I think is a key as to why our system has broken down - down on confidence
Howard - too many dumb mistakes for an experienced player and just not a great key defender - not the future but nothing ready to replace him
Battle- decent but a bit undersized for playing on the monster forwards.
Hill - good last night and has been on a number of occasions this year & one of few elite users by foot - when he has a poor game gives the team very little
Wood - was excellent until he did his shoulder - playing jabbed up which has reduced his impact

A think that is a pretty good rundown on the List.

Problem is Hammer is a project player and not yet AFL quality so doesn't get much respect from a key defender like Andrews

10 gamer rookie against an AA backman - don’t have to be Einstein to know how it’s going to pan out.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

10 gamer rookie against an AA backman - don’t have to be Einstein to know how it’s going to pan out.

Add in only being on a list in February so no AFL standard pre season.

An AA quality back should be winning that duel

 

[Sun Ra]

Campbell 40 hit outs and 121 fantasy points buzzer 7 ho's late in the game & 66 points.

Buzza played forward in first half.

 

[BigMonty]

I would give King a run as the second ruck. He needs to play some football. He has good hands he is quick over first 3 steps. Give him a go. Would change how we make our forward 50 entries and maybe stop being so predictable a d making Sicily and Andrews look better than they are.

Wood is no longer the forward option winger and is playing the defensive winger which is robbing us of that extra clever forward craft. He is clearly playing injured.

Seriously how much better would we be with a fit Jones DMac Clarke and Billings instead of Gresham Byrnes Sharman and Paton? None of these are likely at Saints next year.

Daniher is how we should try and play King as a HHF if we do not want to run him in the ruck. He is just wasted where he is.

Remember we have won more games without him than with him playing. So let's try something different...viz definition of insanity.

Brisbane were a class ahead of us. Neale with a couple of burst clearances set up goals. We just could not cover 4 guys over 200cm if we did not win clearances. The rest of the game was pretty even....they got the run of the ball, the goal that was a point in the last was the momentum killer and summed up our night.

Hill tried hard and ran and ran but our overall delivery inside 50 has to be the worst I have seen from the Saints in years.

Lyon's flu, maybe that is not restricted to him but half the team, as we sure played like we had it.

Anyway beat WCE and then have a real test against Melbourne. Think we are looking like finishing 8th....which I would have taken at the start of the year all day every day.






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[AirWinmar]

Well its what you said , anyway I'm not frustrated at all as iv seen the wheels falling off since about round 6

We had a successful start of the season is what I meant first 5-6 rounds. My point was I wander if the players start then building expectation, etc and it changes the way they play. We looked well drilled early, now we look like headless chooks and that's not all on the midfield.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Anyone that invests anything into a game, flight, tickets, seats etc….with the expectation we will beat a top 4 and is disappointed when the saints loose are absolute lunatics.

You clearly have no understanding of where our list is at.

I flew over thinking we’d beat Collingwood to go top of the ladder undefeated and it would be a grand final preview

 

[CaptainRisky]

We had a successful start of the season is what I meant first 5-6 rounds. My point was I wander if the players start then building expectation, etc and it changes the way they play. We looked well drilled early, now we look like headless chooks and that's not all on the midfield.

I think it was just the excitement of Ross being the coach and young kids playing out of their skins , because of our lack of skill and brains we have to play with 110% pressure or we cant win and you cant play at that level week after week
We definitely need some more quality cattle if we are ever going to win a flag and the sooner we get replacements for Howard and Byrnes the better

 

[Simon Forrest]

The doom & gloom in this forum at the moment is a bit ridiculous. Coming in with my first post to provide some much-needed perspective. So far this season:

Wins against

• Essendon: 5th (18 points)
• Bulldogs: 7th (51 points)
• GWS: 11th (12 points)
• Gold Coast: 12th (53 points)
• Fremantle: 13th (15 points)
• Carlton: 14th (22 points)
• Sydney: 15th (14 points)
• North: 17th (30 points

Losses against:

• Port: 1st (7 points)
• Collingwood: 2nd (6 points)
• Brisbane: 3rd (28 points)
• Richmond: 9th (20 points)
• Crows: 8th (52 points)
• Hawks: 16th (10 points)

Key takeaways

• We're 0-3 against the top 4 sides (elite sides), with an avg losing margin of 13 points, and we've been in all of those games
  • In comparison, we were 1-5 against top 4 sides last year (melb/syd/cats/pies), with an avg losing margin of 33 points, with the one win against Geelong by 10 points.
    
• We're 4-2 against sides 5th-12th (middle of the pack sides), with an avg winning margin of 33 points
  • In comparison, we had a losing record of 4-5 against sides placed 5-12th last year, with an avg winning margin of 21 points
    
• We're 4-1 against sides placed 13th-18th (bottom sides), with an avg winning margin of 20 points
  • In comparison, we were 6-1 against sides placed 13th-18th last year, with an avg winning margin of 33 points

Whilst the overall win/loss is not vastly different, the margins are. That can not be understated.

• Lyon has us playing a brand of footy that keeps us in games against the top sides
• Ratten had us playing more attacking, so we looked great against the poor sides, but couldn't match it with sides around us or above us.

Realistically, we are a 5th-12th place side and our results reflect that. We were never pushing top 4 this year, and the club knows that.

We will play finals this year because of our soft draw, but I expect further improvement next year, albeit finishing in similar 5th-8th position.

2025 we should be in a position to finish top 4 once our youngsters develop further and we clear out some of our underperforming senior players.

Yes, the footy we are playing is dour, but we have to play that way to get results because we don't yet have the talent to go toe-to-toe with the elite sides yet.

Things are never as bad as they seem, nor ever as good as they seem.