Autopsy Round 15, 2023: St.Kilda v Brisbane *SPUD'S GAME* *CROUCH 150TH* *MARSHALL 100TH*

[Diehard Saint]

Cooked because he's got an achilles, knee and shoulder at the moment more.

When did he get the Achilles? Impossible to run with any power at all if that’s the case.

 

[gringo2011]

Our midfield is by far the biggest problem that we have at the moment. Constantly losing clearances puts the defence under the pump and it's all downhill from there. When we do manage to win a clearance, it's usually a quick kick that the opposition always seems to mark about 50-60m from goal. Surely our players are aware of this and take up front position?

The recruiting of our own midfielders over the last 10 years has been nothing short of disastrous. Where are the mids in the peak of the career (24 - 30 years old)? We have Steele (from GWS), Crouch (Adelaide) and Sinclair (rookie pick, moved from the HBF) that are the only ones that look anything close to AFL quality atm. Owens, Windhager, Phillipou will be consistent potential A grade midfielders in a few years time and will be good draft picks.

But over a 10 year period (2011 - 2021) we seem to have drafted no players that have even looked anything close to being a top line midfielder in the league.

We just didn't draft well for nearly 20 years. We are rated as the worst drafters in that period. Least AAs least rising stars etc.

2002 pick 6 and 31 for Barry Brookes, Goddard free hit priority pick due to Carlton cheating, Ferguson, Leigh Fisher, Begley
2003 Raph Clarke, Sam Fisher, Callaghan
2004 McQualter with our FRDP, Ackland, McGough but got Gwilt late.
2005 Traded first for Fergus Watts, Gilbert for 33, Rix, Sweeney and Raymond.
2006 Armitage with our first, Howard, Allen, Ferguson, traded in Birss.
2007 McEvoy, Jack Steven. Trades for Schnieder, Dempster, King, Playfair, Gardiner.
2008 Tom Lynch, Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Cahill, Begley. Traded in Farren Ray.
2009 Lovett trade for our first pick, Jesse Smith trade, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson rookie elevation.
2010 Jamie Cripps, Crocker, Ledger, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin.
2011 Terry Milera and Saad traded for first round pick, Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever.
2012 Tom Lee and 2 later picks for for pick 12, Wright, White,Murdoch, Dunnell.
2013 Billings, Dunstan (McEvoy Trade), Acres in the first round, Tom Curren.
2014 McCartin, H Goddard, DMac, Lonie.
2015 traded for Carlisle, Gresham, Brandon White, Rice.
2016 traded pick 10 away, paid second rounder for Freeman, Long, Battle, Phillips.
2017 Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, paid for Steele with 2nd round pick.
2018 King, Bytel, Hind, Parker, Young.
2019 Hill trade, Jones, Howard, Ryder trades. Byrnes, Connolly.
2020 Higgins trade pick swap, Allison, Highmore
2021 Nas, Owens, Windy, paid second rounder for Higgins trade.

When the draft is designed to level the playing field and it becomes a liability and not an advantage you can't really compete. Looks like Toce has been good since coming in at least.

B Goddard, Stuv, McEvoy, Cripps, Lynch, King, Owens, Nas probably the best of that lot. No AAs hardly a rising star nomination between Stuv and King and most of our best talent off the rookie list or trades.

 

[MrFoster]

That's the way we play though - numbers to the ball, no outside set ups, so when we win the ball its either a very short handball to a player under pressure or a dump kick forward.

Its almost like the coaches don't think the mids can win a contest unless its by outnumbering.

That’s right. Our setup at stoppages is really bad, not

Will never go anywhere with that midfield-they get their hands on the ball-but fumble ,make bad decisions -even if we do win a clearence its scrappy-high slow kicks to the forwards-why he does not try sharman down there is beyond me -I came to the conclusion last night -that we are just a good ordinary team-no better no worse - and with that i am in a much better headspace

With Ryder in the middle, our mids had an armchair ride in centre clearances, made them look better than they are. Definitely need to invest in a big specialist ruck. Play Marshall at CHB and see him flourish.

 

[Premium]

Cooked because he's got an achilles, knee and shoulder at the moment more.

And they didn't play Ross - saying he is being managed and preferring a injury riddled Steele

 

[gringo2011]

When did he get the Achilles? Impossible to run with any power at all if that’s the case.

Lyon mentioned it a couple of times and Lethlean said he has a grumbly knee as well.

 

[Big Jack14]

Great observation about our change in style and it being more competitive against the best.

Paul Roos has always been big on developing the defensive side of your game first before adding in the offence so hopefully that's the blueprint we are following for the next year fews.

Back to the future

 

[Big Jack14]

We just didn't draft well for nearly 20 years. We are rated as the worst drafters in that period. Least AAs least rising stars etc.

2002 pick 6 and 31 for Barry Brookes, Goddard free hit priority pick due to Carlton cheating, Ferguson, Leigh Fisher, Begley
2003 Raph Clarke, Sam Fisher, Callaghan
2004 McQualter with our FRDP, Ackland, McGough but got Gwilt late.
2005 Traded first for Fergus Watts, Gilbert for 33, Rix, Sweeney and Raymond.
2006 Armitage with our first, Howard, Allen, Ferguson, traded in Birss.
2007 McEvoy, Jack Steven. Trades for Schnieder, Dempster, King, Playfair, Gardiner.
2008 Tom Lynch, Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Cahill, Begley. Traded in Farren Ray.
2009 Lovett trade for our first pick, Jesse Smith trade, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson rookie elevation.
2010 Jamie Cripps, Crocker, Ledger, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin.
2011 Terry Milera and Saad traded for first round pick, Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever.
2012 Tom Lee and 2 later picks for for pick 12, Wright, White,Murdoch, Dunnell.
2013 Billings, Dunstan (McEvoy Trade), Acres in the first round, Tom Curren.
2014 McCartin, H Goddard, DMac, Lonie.
2015 traded for Carlisle, Gresham, Brandon White, Rice.
2016 traded pick 10 away, paid second rounder for Freeman, Long, Battle, Phillips.
2017 Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, paid for Steele with 2nd round pick.
2018 King, Bytel, Hind, Parker, Young.
2019 Hill trade, Jones, Howard, Ryder trades. Byrnes, Connolly.
2020 Higgins trade pick swap, Allison, Highmore
2021 Nas, Owens, Windy, paid second rounder for Higgins trade.

When the draft is designed to level the playing field and it becomes a liability and not an advantage you can't really compete. Looks like Toce has been good since coming in at least.

B Goddard, Stuv, McEvoy, Cripps, Lynch, King, Owens, Nas probably the best of that lot. No AAs hardly a rising star nomination between Stuv and King and most of our best talent off the rookie list or trades.

So they’re the best of them. oh that’s right let’s give four of them away. we are a basket case

 

[Sun Ra]

We just didn't draft well for nearly 20 years. We are rated as the worst drafters in that period. Least AAs least rising stars etc.

2002 pick 6 and 31 for Barry Brookes, Goddard free hit priority pick due to Carlton cheating, Ferguson, Leigh Fisher, Begley
2003 Raph Clarke, Sam Fisher, Callaghan
2004 McQualter with our FRDP, Ackland, McGough but got Gwilt late.
2005 Traded first for Fergus Watts, Gilbert for 33, Rix, Sweeney and Raymond.
2006 Armitage with our first, Howard, Allen, Ferguson, traded in Birss.
2007 McEvoy, Jack Steven. Trades for Schnieder, Dempster, King, Playfair, Gardiner.
2008 Tom Lynch, Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Cahill, Begley. Traded in Farren Ray.
2009 Lovett trade for our first pick, Jesse Smith trade, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson rookie elevation.
2010 Jamie Cripps, Crocker, Ledger, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin.
2011 Terry Milera and Saad traded for first round pick, Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever.
2012 Tom Lee and 2 later picks for for pick 12, Wright, White,Murdoch, Dunnell.
2013 Billings, Dunstan (McEvoy Trade), Acres in the first round, Tom Curren.
2014 McCartin, H Goddard, DMac, Lonie.
2015 traded for Carlisle, Gresham, Brandon White, Rice.
2016 traded pick 10 away, paid second rounder for Freeman, Long, Battle, Phillips.
2017 Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, paid for Steele with 2nd round pick.
2018 King, Bytel, Hind, Parker, Young.
2019 Hill trade, Jones, Howard, Ryder trades. Byrnes, Connolly.
2020 Higgins trade pick swap, Allison, Highmore
2021 Nas, Owens, Windy, paid second rounder for Higgins trade.

When the draft is designed to level the playing field and it becomes a liability and not an advantage you can't really compete. Looks like Toce has been good since coming in at least.

B Goddard, Stuv, McEvoy, Cripps, Lynch, King, Owens, Nas probably the best of that lot. No AAs hardly a rising star nomination between Stuv and King and most of our best talent off the rookie list or trades.

I was picking up my daughter once at daycare and bumped into Terry Daniher who told me "Brooksey could be anything".

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We just didn't draft well for nearly 20 years. We are rated as the worst drafters in that period. Least AAs least rising stars etc.

2002 pick 6 and 31 for Barry Brookes, Goddard free hit priority pick due to Carlton cheating, Ferguson, Leigh Fisher, Begley
2003 Raph Clarke, Sam Fisher, Callaghan
2004 McQualter with our FRDP, Ackland, McGough but got Gwilt late.
2005 Traded first for Fergus Watts, Gilbert for 33, Rix, Sweeney and Raymond.
2006 Armitage with our first, Howard, Allen, Ferguson, traded in Birss.
2007 McEvoy, Jack Steven. Trades for Schnieder, Dempster, King, Playfair, Gardiner.
2008 Tom Lynch, Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Cahill, Begley. Traded in Farren Ray.
2009 Lovett trade for our first pick, Jesse Smith trade, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson rookie elevation.
2010 Jamie Cripps, Crocker, Ledger, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin.
2011 Terry Milera and Saad traded for first round pick, Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever.
2012 Tom Lee and 2 later picks for for pick 12, Wright, White,Murdoch, Dunnell.
2013 Billings, Dunstan (McEvoy Trade), Acres in the first round, Tom Curren.
2014 McCartin, H Goddard, DMac, Lonie.
2015 traded for Carlisle, Gresham, Brandon White, Rice.
2016 traded pick 10 away, paid second rounder for Freeman, Long, Battle, Phillips.
2017 Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, paid for Steele with 2nd round pick.
2018 King, Bytel, Hind, Parker, Young.
2019 Hill trade, Jones, Howard, Ryder trades. Byrnes, Connolly.
2020 Higgins trade pick swap, Allison, Highmore
2021 Nas, Owens, Windy, paid second rounder for Higgins trade.

When the draft is designed to level the playing field and it becomes a liability and not an advantage you can't really compete. Looks like Toce has been good since coming in at least.

B Goddard, Stuv, McEvoy, Cripps, Lynch, King, Owens, Nas probably the best of that lot. No AAs hardly a rising star nomination between Stuv and King and most of our best talent off the rookie list or trades.

Last years premiers still had players drafted back in the mid 2000's. You can't just turn that around. There is no instant fix from trading. That only makes it worse over the long term.
We've drafted ok over the last 6 years , but our trading made it worse than it had to be.
We need to draft above average now , and keep doing it.

 

[Sully111]

The doom & gloom in this forum at the moment is a bit ridiculous. Coming in with my first post to provide some much-needed perspective. So far this season:

Wins against

• Essendon: 5th (18 points)
• Bulldogs: 7th (51 points)
• GWS: 11th (12 points)
• Gold Coast: 12th (53 points)
• Fremantle: 13th (15 points)
• Carlton: 14th (22 points)
• Sydney: 15th (14 points)
• North: 17th (30 points

Losses against:

• Port: 1st (7 points)
• Collingwood: 2nd (6 points)
• Brisbane: 3rd (28 points)
• Richmond: 9th (20 points)
• Crows: 8th (52 points)
• Hawks: 16th (10 points)

Key takeaways

• We're 0-3 against the top 4 sides (elite sides), with an avg losing margin of 13 points, and we've been in all of those games
  • In comparison, we were 1-5 against top 4 sides last year (melb/syd/cats/pies), with an avg losing margin of 33 points, with the one win against Geelong by 10 points.
• We're 4-2 against sides 5th-12th (middle of the pack sides), with an avg winning margin of 33 points
  • In comparison, we had a losing record of 4-5 against sides placed 5-12th last year, with an avg winning margin of 21 points
• We're 4-1 against sides placed 13th-18th (bottom sides), with an avg winning margin of 20 points
  • In comparison, we were 6-1 against sides placed 13th-18th last year, with an avg winning margin of 33 points

Whilst the overall win/loss is not vastly different, the margins are. That can not be understated.

• Lyon has us playing a brand of footy that keeps us in games against the top sides
• Ratten had us playing more attacking, so we looked great against the poor sides, but couldn't match it with sides around us or above us.

Realistically, we are a 5th-12th place side and our results reflect that. We were never pushing top 4 this year, and the club knows that.

We will play finals this year because of our soft draw, but I expect further improvement next year, albeit finishing in similar 5th-8th position.

2025 we should be in a position to finish top 4 once our youngsters develop further and we clear out some of our underperforming senior players.

Yes, the footy we are playing is dour, but we have to play that way to get results because we don't yet have the talent to go toe-to-toe with the elite sides yet.

Things are never as bad as they seem, nor ever as good as they seem.

I wouldn't be so sure that we'll play finals this year

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I was picking up my daughter oncer at daycare and bumped into Terry Daniher who told me "Brookey could be anything".

He could be....anyone know what?

 

[Sun Ra]

He could be....anyone know what?

It was early days.

 

[gringo2011]

Last years premiers still had players drafted back in the mid 2000's. You can't just turn that around. There is no instant fix from trading. That only makes it worse over the long term.
We've drafted ok over the last 6 years , but our trading made it worse than it had to be.
We need to draft above average now , and keep doing it.

King was a great get. Coff and Clark are more likely to not make it than be stars now. I'd probably say the last 2 years look a lot better than anything before, we have a lot of high potential players and Nas and Owens look on track to be stars. Phillipou looks a blue chip prospect and Hotton, Van Es, Keeler look very high reward types too.


I don't want to get too excited though. We managed Sam Fisher and Stuv as our 2 A graders in the 16 years between B Goddard and Max King and perhaps Ross, Cripps, Big Mac and Lynch if you are generous. Finding a bunch of them in 2 years seems greedy.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

King was a great get. Coff and Clark are more likely to not make it than be stars now. I'd probably say the last 2 years look a lot better than anything before, we have a lot of high potential players and Nas and Owens look on track to be stars. Phillipou looks a blue chip prospect and Hotton, Van Es, Keeler look very high reward types too.


I don't want to get too excited though. We managed Sam Fisher and Stuv as our 2 A graders in the 16 years between B Goddard and Max King and perhaps Ross, Cripps, Big Mac and Lynch if you are generous. Finding a bunch of them in 2 years seems greedy.

Clark was pretty decent in the midfield before he was injured.

I'd like to think that some of our later draft picks have been the difference from what we saw for years.
Even players like Bynes are better than frittering it away on nothing.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I wouldn't be so sure that we'll play finals this year

We are St. Kilda….no one is EVER sure.

 

[hangdog]

Did anyone else notice how much bigger and stronger Brisbane looked than us last night. I know RTB wanted everyone dropping weight to improve the running, but I dont think it has helped our football. We got out muscled last night I think we have gone too far the other way.

That's how it looked against Port too

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Did anyone else notice how much bigger and stronger Brisbane looked than us last night. I know RTB wanted everyone dropping weight to improve the running, but I dont think it has helped our football. We got out muscled last night I think we have gone too far the other way.

That’s why I wouldn’t be getting overly excited about the likes of Leo Connolly.

Has some nice skills but is a long way off dominating at VFL level and at the end of the day is just another puny lightweight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brains Trust66]

I thought Hammer and King flew at the same marking contests too many times but they have only played a couple games together so that is to be expected.
i never expected us to be in contention for the finals when the season started due to our injury list so to be where we are is still pretty good at the moment. So exciting to see Owens , NAS , Pou , and Hammer showing so much already . Can’t be too hard on the Hammer as he has been playing on very good defenders but he tries very hard . Wood started very well but has dropped off a little probably because other sides started paying him more attention. Sinclair and Wilkie have continued to be in AA contention.
Marshall has had some great games but needs more help . Steele has had too many injuries and has struggled this year because of them , not sure if he should even be playing at this stage . Butler and Higgins fight hard but playing that small forward role is hard week after week . Maybe they should be given runs on the ball every now and again .
Byrnes started well but has dropped off and perhaps should be given a spell in the twos . Crouch gets a lot of the ball but I don’t think he pays enough attention to his man , just my opinion so I could be wrong .

 

[Brains Trust66]

That’s why I wouldn’t be getting overly excited about the likes of Leo Connolly.

Has some nice skills but is a long way off dominating at VFL level and at the end of the day is just another puny lightweight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree , with his skills he should be killing it in the VFL but he is struggling to get much of the ball . Might get delisted at the end of this season.

 

[gringo2011]

I thought Hammer and King flew at the same marking contests too many times but they have only played a couple games together so that is to be expected.
i never expected us to be in contention for the finals when the season started due to our injury list so to be where we are is still pretty good at the moment. So exciting to see Owens , NAS , Pou , and Hammer showing so much already . Can’t be too hard on the Hammer as he has been playing on very good defenders but he tries very hard . Wood started very well but has dropped off a little probably because other sides started paying him more attention. Sinclair and Wilkie have continued to be in AA contention.
Marshall has had some great games but needs more help . Steele has had too many injuries and has struggled this year because of them , not sure if he should even be playing at this stage . Butler and Higgins fight hard but playing that small forward role is hard week after week . Maybe they should be given runs on the ball every now and again .
Byrnes started well but has dropped off and perhaps should be given a spell in the twos . Crouch gets a lot of the ball but I don’t think he pays enough attention to his man , just my opinion so I could be wrong .

I reckon Nas' game was underrated for impact. He's had great recent form as the rest of them have gone backwards or plateaued. He has a lot of Jack Sinclair about him and only in his second year and 30 games in. Took Jack about 7 years to hit that kind of form. Probably striding past Owen at this point as our best kid but going under the radar.

 

[bergholt]

We just didn't draft well for nearly 20 years. We are rated as the worst drafters in that period. Least AAs least rising stars etc.

2002 pick 6 and 31 for Barry Brookes, Goddard free hit priority pick due to Carlton cheating, Ferguson, Leigh Fisher, Begley
2003 Raph Clarke, Sam Fisher, Callaghan
2004 McQualter with our FRDP, Ackland, McGough but got Gwilt late.
2005 Traded first for Fergus Watts, Gilbert for 33, Rix, Sweeney and Raymond.
2006 Armitage with our first, Howard, Allen, Ferguson, traded in Birss.
2007 McEvoy, Jack Steven. Trades for Schnieder, Dempster, King, Playfair, Gardiner.
2008 Tom Lynch, Stanley, Heyne, Smith, Cahill, Begley. Traded in Farren Ray.
2009 Lovett trade for our first pick, Jesse Smith trade, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson rookie elevation.
2010 Jamie Cripps, Crocker, Ledger, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin.
2011 Terry Milera and Saad traded for first round pick, Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever.
2012 Tom Lee and 2 later picks for for pick 12, Wright, White,Murdoch, Dunnell.
2013 Billings, Dunstan (McEvoy Trade), Acres in the first round, Tom Curren.
2014 McCartin, H Goddard, DMac, Lonie.
2015 traded for Carlisle, Gresham, Brandon White, Rice.
2016 traded pick 10 away, paid second rounder for Freeman, Long, Battle, Phillips.
2017 Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, paid for Steele with 2nd round pick.
2018 King, Bytel, Hind, Parker, Young.
2019 Hill trade, Jones, Howard, Ryder trades. Byrnes, Connolly.
2020 Higgins trade pick swap, Allison, Highmore
2021 Nas, Owens, Windy, paid second rounder for Higgins trade.

When the draft is designed to level the playing field and it becomes a liability and not an advantage you can't really compete. Looks like Toce has been good since coming in at least.

B Goddard, Stuv, McEvoy, Cripps, Lynch, King, Owens, Nas probably the best of that lot. No AAs hardly a rising star nomination between Stuv and King and most of our best talent off the rookie list or trades.

I’ve been saying the same thing for years and years:

Mids, mids, and more mids.

If you take so many that you think you might have gone overboard, that gives you the best possible chance of actually getting a really good midfield. Not taking guys like McCartin, Goddard, Allison, Carlisle, Lee, Hickey, King, etc etc etc.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

No I don’t, I’d like to see him used properly. It’s just crazy what’s going on it’s like ordering a pint of Dom Perignon, it’s an affront.

Sorry for the intrusion, but I would order a quart or a gallon if they would serve it.

Bugger the affront

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Byrnes and Butler 1 Contested possession.
Sharman 2 contested possessions in one quarter.
Battle, Caminiti Wilkie and Paton ... 3
Howard, King, Stocker and Windhager. 5
Gresham, Higgins, Marshall, Phillipou , Webster 6.
Owens 7
Hill and Wood 8
Crouch and Wangeneen-Milera 9.
Steele 12
Sinclair 16.

Now for Nasiah to win as much contested footy as Crouch, while playing the outside game he plays is pretty good.

I'm getting a kind of Shaun Burgoyne

9

Shaun Burgoyne

Age

42

Ht

186cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

9.9

4star

HB

8.1

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.8

5star

MG

162.7

3star

D

10.0

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.6

4star

MG

162.7

3star

D

6.2

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

1.6

4star

vibe from him, and we need to hang onto him no matter what.

 

[The Cobra]

Really hope we persevere with Coff - good size & skills, was looking terrific preseason and is versatile. Got to be patient coming back from an ACL.

If we let him go & he is picked up reckon we will regret it big time (Joel Smith anyone?)

 

[jwint43]

I think was due to Brisbane working very hard & getting numbers back, and if so credit to them, but we felt soooo predictable and slow last night. Just because King is back doesn't mean you need to lob it on his head everytime and expect a miracle. He is so much more damaging one on one rather then trying to mark amongst 5/6 other players in a pack.

Butler shirked the issue multiple times last night, as did Hill (as per usual). Noticing Butler would rather get rid of the ball to the saints detriment then cop the hit.

We should have got flogged last night, and we should have lost to Collingwood by alot more. We aren't anywhere near the top 4 teams, and if we do make finals its only because of how inconsistent the middle rung have been this year (Us, Freo, Geelong, Bulldogs, Essendon)