Autopsy Round 3, 2021: Essendon v St.Kilda *STEELE 100TH* *CLARK 50TH* *CROUCH DEBUT*

[gringo2011]

You keen to stick up for other opinions which fine but an opinion can still be wrong. Fighting for something that is wrong makes as much sense as is following the saints. As for ganging up well that’s simply fixed. Admit wrong and it stops. Keep arguing stupidity and it keeps going.

I hate the pile on when people have a difference of opinion. You know what it's like when it feels like everyone is against you on the forum, you double down even when you know you're dying on a hill for something that isn't worth the effort. Like Coops, if it seems like an idiot option say something once then ignore it. It's like a pack running in punishing posters for saying something most people don't agree with. Basically most of us are on here because we can try to feel like we are unified in pain or elation. Pushing someone out for something trivial is kind of mean especially after such a devastating loss.

Blaming Jake's nuts for our pain is just a more random version of blaming Smack or Hill for it .

 

[plugger66]

I hate the pile on when people have a difference of opinion. You know what it's like when it feels like everyone is against you on the forum, you double down even when you know you're dying on a hill for something that isn't worth the effort. Like Coops, if it seems like an idiot option say something once then ignore it. It's like a pack running in punishing posters for saying something most people don't agree with. Basically most of us are on here because we can try to feel like we are unified in pain or elation. Pushing someone out for something trivial is kind of mean especially after such a devastating loss.

Blaming Jake's nuts for our pain is just a more random version of blaming Smack or Hill for it .

You haven’t addressed the issue though they his opinion is actually wrong that is why he copped it. And if you cop it and don’t like it just walk away or admit your opinion was wrong. I’m pretty sure I got ganged up as you call it for saying the butler free wasn’t a free. My options were simple. Ignore it and still have my strong opinion. Walk away and don’t read it or admit my opinion was wrong but like all of my opinions it was proven correct. This guy can’t Be proven correct because his opinion was plainly wrong but kept arguing so to me it isn’t ganging up. It’s people just saying how silly his continued argument was.

 

[gringo2011]

You haven’t addressed the issue though they his opinion is actually wrong that is why he copped it. And if you cop it and don’t like it just walk away or admit your opinion was wrong. I’m pretty sure I got ganged up as you call it for saying the butler free wasn’t a free. My options were simple. Ignore it and still have my strong opinion. Walk away and don’t read it or admit my opinion was wrong but like all of my opinions it was proven correct. This guy can’t Be proven correct because his opinion was plainly wrong but kept arguing so to me it isn’t ganging up. It’s people just saying how silly his continued argument was.

I have this weird issue where a form of intractable obstinance kicks in when people pull me up. I know it's makes me look worse but I can't back down. I back in to a corner and punch at anything that moves.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

Higgins looks like kB compared to the other two at the moment especially butler. He and even other smalls aren’t our issue. Starts and ends with mids and especially their lack of a accountability

Higgins reminds me a bit of Stevie J the way he moves.
FWIW, I think we'll see good things from him after he settles into a functioning forward line.

 

[Ricochet]

For those wanting Matt Allison in he is nowhere near ready to play at the level.

Either are the other 20 players that played on Saturday

 

[Yawkey way]

Higgins is too slow for his role. He's got some ability so hides his limitations but you can see why he was a fringe player for the Tigers. His defensive pressure will never be good enough due to the lack of pace, hopefully he ends up Papley level as a high scoring bulky little nugget forward where others can do the fast pressure stuff and he can just tackle the players around him but not need to chase too much.

Papley has that urgency you want, he doesn’t look slow to me and he’s a very good kick.

Higgins is definitely up and about but he lacks pace and his kicking over any distance is rubbish. I like him close to goal where he’s clever and dangerous. The problem we have is lonie has better disposal so you’d like to be leading to him but he can’t kick over a jam tin so you’re not getting many out of those two from any distance.

 

[FQFjt]

Say what you want about our list — Hill is overrated, our midfield isn't A grade, we picked the wrong King, Buttler will be delisted — but on no view of the world were we an 80 point worse side than Essendon's this week. Player quality does not and cannot explain the result.

So what are the other candidates? Game plan and effort.

I share many others' concern for elements of our game plan. Our ball movement is not up to standard, our forward line is crowded and predictable, our defence has been leaking alarmingly since the preseason game against Carlton, if not before. I cannot stand the ridiculous positional changes that have been on display lately. It shits me to no end that Battle is being played anywhere but where he is actually good. There is no good reason for Brad Crouch

5

Brad Crouch

Age

31

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.1

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

2.7

3star

T

5.5

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

20.3

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

9.1

5star

M

1.5

2star

T

3.9

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

21.6

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.6

5star

to be playing anywhere but in the guts. Brad Hill is not a full forward, even having to type those words makes my head explode. I don't know wtf is going on in the coaches box, but something needs to be done about this. Many of the tactical issues were already on display from the middle of last year, when we got stuck into a form slump. It now seems increasingly clear that some Paddy Ryder heroics papered over more than a few cracks.

Everyone can see that effort is also not there. Effort is psychological, and figuring our what causes phycological effects is an inscrutable task — that is so when dealing with one person, let alone 22 different people trying to act together. But with very very few exceptions, no player crosses the white line with anything but wholehearted intention to give genuine effort. So where does it go? In short, effort disappears when shit on the field doesn't go your way. And the opposite is true too — this is essentially what momentum is all about. All too often, a lack of effort is isolated as the reason for why a team is playing badly, when there really is an anterior cause. Effort obviously compounds the problem, but it is not the source of the problem. This is why I don't think there is any point in spending time focusing on the 'effort' angle. Effort is the symptom, not the cause. Address the reasons for why nothing is working, and then the effort will be back.

Finally, things can change quickly. Richmond in 2017 is a case in point. They started the season strong, winning the first 5 games of the season. They then met fellow ladder leaders Adelaide in round 6 and were comprehensively smashed by 76 points. That result seemed to break Richmond, going on to lose their next three games, falling from 5-0 to 5-4. After then recovering to 9-5, they faced St Kilda in round 16 (Maddie's Match) and were given an almighty bath. The Saints won by 67 points and lead 92-10 at half time. But despite that huge loss, they went on to lose only one more game for the season, culminating in a huge premiership.

Hardwick's post match presser after that game is very interesting viewing, especially with knowledge of what was to come. https://www.afl.com.au/video/170503...hFrom=1499520477001&references=AFL_MATCH:1360
Note that the word 'effort' (or anything similar) does not leave his mouth. The issue was with method, and with an inability to hit targets.

My point is not that we are going to replicate this narrative — there are some key differences. But it does show the path to success is not linear, and will almost always include huge setbacks. Without the benefit of hindsight, these setbacks often seem insurmountable. But they don't have to be. Things can turn around, and in a big way, and demoralising losses and form slumps do not need to spell the end.

 

[Diehard Saint]

What the actual fu** are you on about mate? This has got to be the worst argument I've ever seen on this forum, among a ******* hall of fame of sh*t arguments.

As anyone who has ever had kids knows, it can take a week to conceive or it can take months, sometimes years. Besides which, there’s always the possibility of premature arrivals. It’s completely out of anyone’s control.

So honestly, unless we expect (completely unreasonably) that footballers put off having their families until they retire, these things will happen and we have to accept it.

 

[gringo2011]

Papley has that urgency you want, he doesn’t look slow to me and he’s a very good kick.

Higgins is definitely up and about but he lacks pace and his kicking over any distance is rubbish. I like him close to goal where he’s clever and dangerous. The problem we have is lonie was better disposal so you’d like to be leading to him he can’t kick over a jam tin so you’re not getting many out of those two from any distance.

I reckon Higgins can look quick too but he doesn't have sustained ability to chase. Papley is a good model for him to follow. Papley has that bean-bag physique that Higgins has and he's hard for the smalls to pull off the ball and a bit too slippery for the taller defenders. Both seem to buzz when the ball gets near them and make stuff happen that doesn't deserve to.

 

[Joffaboy]

If we hadn't traded for Hill would could have had Acres rucking

 

[Diehard Saint]

People see what they want to see. I see players out of form. I don’t see rule changes being an issue. We grab for any excuse.

The majority out of form, at the same time?
Why would that happen, though?

 

[gringo2011]

As anyone who has ever had kids knows, it can take a week to conceive or it can take months, sometimes years. Besides which, there’s always the possibility of premature arrivals. It’s completely out of anyone’s control.

So honestly, unless we expect (completely unreasonably) that footballers put off having their families until they retire, these things will happen and we have to accept it.

We had 2 little mistakes, I can't comment.

 

[plugger66]

The majority out of form, at the same time?
Why would that happen, though?

No idea. Makes no sense after the practice games and a good round one win but being at the ground Saturday I saw lack of effort lack of confidence going for the ball lack of skills and worst of all some weird coaching ideas.

 

[gringo2011]

Say what you want about our list — Hill is overrated, our midfield isn't A grade, we picked the wrong King, Buttler will be delisted — but on no view of the world were we an 80 point worse side than Essendon's this week. Player quality does not and cannot explain the result.

So what are the other candidates? Game plan and effort.

I share many others' concern for elements of our game plan. Our ball movement is not up to standard, our forward line is crowded and predictable, our defence has been leaking alarmingly since the preseason game against Carlton, if not before. I cannot stand the ridiculous positional changes that have been on display lately. It shits me to no end that Battle is being played anywhere but where he is actually good. There is no good reason for Brad Crouch to be playing anywhere but in the guts. Brad Hill is not a full forward, even having to type those words makes my head explode. I don't know wtf is going on in the coaches box, but something needs to be done about this. Many of the tactical issues were already on display from the middle of last year, when we got stuck into a form slump. It now seems increasingly clear that some Paddy Ryder heroics papered over more than a few cracks.

Everyone can see that effort is also not there. Effort is psychological, and figuring our what causes phycological effects is an inscrutable task — that is so when dealing with one person, let alone 22 different people trying to act together. But with very very few exceptions, no player crosses the white line with anything but wholehearted intention to give genuine effort. So where does it go? In short, effort disappears when sh*t on the field doesn't go your way. And the opposite is true too — this is essentially what momentum is all about. All too often, a lack of effort is isolated as the reason for why a team is playing badly, when there really is an anterior cause. Effort obviously compounds the problem, but it is not the source of the problem. This is why I don't think there is any point in spending time focusing on the 'effort' angle. Effort is the symptom, not the cause. Address the reasons for why nothing is working, and then the effort will be back.

Finally, things can change quickly. Richmond in 2017 is a case in point. They started the season strong, winning the first 5 games of the season. They then met fellow ladder leaders Adelaide in round 6 and were comprehensively smashed by 76 points. That result seemed to break Richmond, going on to lose their next three games, falling from 5-0 to 5-4. After then recovering to 9-5, they faced St Kilda in round 16 (Maddie's Match) and were given an almighty bath. The Saints won by 67 points and lead 92-10 at half time. But despite that huge loss, they went on to lose only one more game for the season, culminating in a huge premiership.

Hardwick's post match presser after that game is very interesting viewing, especially with knowledge of what was to come. https://www.afl.com.au/video/170503...hFrom=1499520477001&references=AFL_MATCH:1360
Note that the word 'effort' (or anything similar) does not leave his mouth. The issue was with method, and with an inability to hit targets.

My point is not that we are going to replicate this narrative — there are some key differences. But it does show the path to success is not linear, and will almost always include huge setbacks. Without the benefit of hindsight, these setbacks often seem insurmountable. But they don't have to be. Things can turn around, and in a big way, and demoralising losses and form slumps do not need to spell the end.

We seem to be a side that picks and chooses games to get up for. A lot of our worst efforts last year were in games we should have won. The problem with that loss is that it may have caused some serious confidence issues that are a lot harder to get back out of.

 

[One 2 Roo]

Reality is we are probably a borderline top 8 outfit, this year will be hard to make it with the draw we have been given.

That being said, there will be points peaks and troughs for all teams during the year, as injuries and poor form mount. Lets hope this is the bottom and we start building into a run of form.

We need to set ourselves to try and pinch one of the next 3 and sit at least 2-3 after 5. There will be many teams at 2-3 or 3-2 at that point.

FWIW, I see WC as gettable if we can muster some fight, flare and hunger. We normally play well against the Tigers, and we had a backs to the wall double in Adelaide last year. All is not lost.

 

[plugger66]

We seem to be a side that picks and chooses games to get up for. A lot of our worst efforts last year were in games we should have won. The problem with that loss is that it may have caused some serious confidence issues that are a lot harder to get back out of.

Reckon that’s a myth. Our worst 2 performances and by a clear margin were pies and geelong. Not games we were expected to win. Yes we lost a couple of close ones we expected to win but we were smashed in those 2. Uncompetitive

 

[Ricochet]

We need to only worrie about the pressure game and forget about the zone defence play man on man and try to overlap run going into attack I think the game plan is to difficult for the game style at the moment. teams winning at the moment by out numbering the opponent at the contest then working it in to space for a kick to advantage in the forward 50 if it is not marked force a ball up or throw in with all your numbers at the contest with only man on man behind the ball.

 

[bird_man]

Higgins to me looks like one of the few positives to come out of the year so far.

He may not be dominating games yet but that's hard to do for a small forward when your side is getting smashed.

He's still averaging 2 goals, I think we'd be pretty happy if he can kick 40 odd goals for the year.

His pace isn't an issue for me, some of the greatest small forwards weren't quick. If Butler's year so far far proves anything is that you need to have a few more tricks rather than just pace because when clubs work out you kick most of your goals pushing up the ground and running back into space you will struggle.

Higgins is a crafty little campaigner that can make something out of nothing and is good over head for a midget. He has a strong future I think

 

[denisp]

No idea. Makes no sense after the practice games and a good round one win but being at the ground Saturday I saw lack of effort lack of confidence going for the ball lack of skills and worst of all some weird coaching ideas.

me too - I nearly threw up at the 20min of second quarter after I saw Sinclair jogging along the wing for the 18th time!!!

 

[sunny3193]

Higgins is too slow for his role. He's got some ability so hides his limitations but you can see why he was a fringe player for the Tigers. His defensive pressure will never be good enough due to the lack of pace, hopefully he ends up Papley level as a high scoring bulky little nugget forward where others can do the fast pressure stuff and he can just tackle the players around him but not need to chase too much.

It’s interesting how we see the same thing but take away different thoughts.
I actually think that Higgins football nouse will make him a very dangerous player. That mark he took between the two Carlton defenders for example.
Your analogy with Tom Papley is apt, though I reckon Papley might have a couple of yards on him. I’m more excited about him than I ever was for any of the five last year and Crouch this year. He’s still young, really only effectively in his third year, and has great upside. Once he has a tank I can see him doing damage anywhere in and forward of centre.

 

[denisp]

Reality is we are probably a borderline top 8 outfit, this year will be hard to make it with the draw we have been given.

That being said, there will be points peaks and troughs for all teams during the year, as injuries and poor form mount. Lets hope this is the bottom and we start building into a run of form.

We need to set ourselves to try and pinch one of the next 3 and sit at least 2-3 after 5. There will be many teams at 2-3 or 3-2 at that point.

FWIW, I see WC as gettable if we can muster some fight, flare and hunger. We normally play well against the Tigers, and we had a backs to the wall double in Adelaide last year. All is not lost.

OMG don't mention top 8 after Saturday. speaking of peaks and troughs I cannot see any team losing so comprehensively to a side ravaged by injuries as we did

 

[plugger66]

We need to only worrie about the pressure game and forget about the zone defence play man on man and try to overlap run going into attack I think the game plan is to difficult for the game style at the moment. teams winning at the moment by out numbering the opponent at the contest then working it in to space for a kick to advantage in the forward 50 if it is not marked force a ball up or throw in with all your numbers at the contest with only man on man behind the ball.

How can you play man on man but outnumber at the contest. There is fractional more man on man footy at the moment but if you played solely like that your backline would be slaughtered

 

[SaintsSeptember]

His last 5 games of us he went 8, 7, 7, 5, 7, kicked a combined 1 goal 2 behinds.

If you put Lonie or Kent in front of those stats, no one would be saying they warranted being in the best 22.

Yeah sure he had a bad handful of games. Lets delist him. ( his stats look even better if i don't count those bad games ).
Now our gun from last year is having a bad handful of games.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Papley has that urgency you want, he doesn’t look slow to me and he’s a very good kick.

Higgins is definitely up and about but he lacks pace and his kicking over any distance is rubbish. I like him close to goal where he’s clever and dangerous. The problem we have is lonie has better disposal so you’d like to be leading to him but he can’t kick over a jam tin so you’re not getting many out of those two from any distance.

Can you believe people used to complain about Steven Milne's inconsistency.

 

[70s sainter]

When you think about it our optimism came from last years performance in a very abnormal year where everything would be different. Combine that with another very different season where the new rules have completely changed the game .
So at the end of it you have new players that are starring .
New game styles that are smashing it .

And unfortunately teams that are no where near it this year .
That’s us of course
Bottom teams on top and top teams losing .
So unless we can adapt quickly we’re stuffed.
ive got no idea whether we have the type of players on our list that are capable of this .