Autopsy Round 3, 2024: Essendon v St.Kilda

[g_TRAIN]

Our engine room of midfield and ruckmen is the most important area, you can't have one without the other.

So many examples of teams with a poor or average ruck doing excellently, even winning premierships.

Not many examples of teams with a good ruck and poor midfield doing well.

I would say you can have one without the other, as long as that one is a strong midfield. Not that it should be our goal.

We already have a strong ruck, we need a good midfield to compliment it.

 

[littlecreatures]

Ro wouldn’t have been in AA conversation end of last season if he wasn’t any good. Don’t think he’s a pressing issue across the list, probably a strength really. The issue lies across the midfield and for the most part being unable to recruit effectively across this space for somewhere close to 15 years. There’s no quick fix trying to remedy those issues which will take time and years of successful recruitment.

 

[MordySaint]

Ro wouldn’t have been in AA conversation end of last season if he wasn’t any good. Don’t think he’s a pressing issue across the list, probably a strength really. The issue lies across the midfield and for the most part being unable to recruit effectively across this space for somewhere close to 15 years. There’s no quick fix trying to remedy those issues which will take time and years of successful recruitment.

Roma is amazing but tell me what happens if he gets injured, who do we turn to.

The ruck recruitment has been pretty similar to our midfield recruitment over the last decade.

I talked about the 2017 draft and its one we had a huge card in and got very little in return. There was Tom De Koning and a few other gems were in there. It's also Ameet Bains last draft as list manager before he left to the top job at the Bulldogs, his selections that year were safe but have been proven to have no substance.

 

[The Punter]

2017 draft: Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton.

Boy, did we select a lot of impact injuries in the one draft.

 

[littlecreatures]

Roma is amazing but tell me what happens if he gets injured, who do we turn to.

The ruck recruitment has been pretty similar to our midfield recruitment over the last decade.

I talked about the 2017 draft and its one we had a huge card in and got very little in return. There was Tom De Koning and a few other gems were in there. It's also Ameet Bains last draft as list manager before he left to the top job at the Bulldogs, his selections that year were safe but have been proven to have no substance.

I think you only need to look at rucks that have either been approached or drafted in last 10 years to see it’s not through lack of trying we don’t have a back up. What exactly is the alternative, wave a magic wand to have a back up ruck ready to go? We went hard at TDK, didn’t work, once again not through lack of trying.

 

[Saintbloke]

So many examples of teams with a poor or average ruck doing excellently, even winning premierships.

Not many examples of teams with a good ruck and poor midfield doing well.

I would say you can have one without the other, as long as that one is a strong midfield. Not that it should be our goal.

We already have a strong ruck, we need a good midfield to compliment it.

I don't see Roma as a good tap ruckman, and it really makes it hard for an ordinary midfield to get first use of the ball in that case. We saw how effective Paddy was a few years ago in getting the ball to the midfielders.

 

[g_TRAIN]

I don't see Roma as a good tap ruckman, and it really makes it hard for an ordinary midfield to get first use of the ball in that case. We saw how effective Paddy was a few years ago in getting the ball to the midfielders.

I think its hard for an ordinary midfield because they are ordinary. Hit outs are probably the most over rated statistic in football.

Yes Paddy was exceptional, but he was very rare. Only a handful of guys in the last 10 years have been good enough to regularly create a meaningful difference to clearances for their team via hit outs.

 

[MordySaint]

I don't see Roma as a good tap ruckman, and it really makes it hard for an ordinary midfield to get first use of the ball in that case. We saw how effective Paddy was a few years ago in getting the ball to the midfielders.

Wasn't Paddy Ryder an absolute gem - literally dragged us over the line on more than one occasion. I see he went on to play the next year at a lower level... strange we didn't give him another year.

I didn't understand why no-one on here liked Grundy, he's certainly a solid ruckman and is having a big effect at the Swans.

 

[austinnn]

Wasn't Paddy Ryder an absolute gem - literally dragged us over the line on more than one occasion. I see he went on to play the next year at a lower level... strange we didn't give him another year.

I didn't understand why no-one on here liked Grundy, he's certainly a solid ruckman and is having a big effect at the Swans.

Maybe we were spooked by the terrible season he had in tandem with Max Gawn - wouldn' t have wanted something like that going on with Marshall.

Seems like Grundy's better when he's the solo ruck.

 

[MrFoster]

I’m still puzzled as to how we went back to those Brett Rattan days in the 2nd half.

Felt like a carbon copy of 2021/22.

It left me questioning our fitness as well which is not something I would think I was worrying about at the start of the year

Once we started to lose the midfield battle in the 2nd half, our energy also dropped, so can’t run hard to provide free targets like the 1st half. So the entire team resort back to dump kick / hack kick long down the line..

The root causes are:
1. We can only transitin the ball with kicks to free man (require space and hard running which is not sustainable)

2. We can’t win contested ball

3. Out game style is too taxing to keep up the entire game

 

[pebblesofsand]

The "problem" with Marshall is that his best value is clearly as a ruck rather than a ruck/fwd.

So unless we find a genuine tall fwd who could play alongside King and take the load off Marshall then it's the likes of Hayes, Owens or Caminiti filling that role.

I think that's part of the reason Max Heath spends a far bit of time fwd at Sandy.

Dream scenario would be Keeler filling out a bit and turning into a Ryder clone.

 

[StFly]

The "problem" with Marshall is that his best value is clearly as a ruck rather than a ruck/fwd.

So unless we find a genuine tall fwd who could play alongside King and take the load off Marshall then it's the likes of Hayes, Owens or Caminiti filling that role.

I think that's part of the reason Max Heath spends a far bit of time fwd at Sandy.

Dream scenario would be Keeler filling out a bit and turning into a Ryder clone.

Heath and Keeler, they're the ruck as competent forward types we need in the here and now to switch with Marshall when he needs that rest as a KPF. I'm more bullish on Keeler as he struck me more as a mini King type, whereas Heath has always had the big boy maybe Tom Boyd but lacks something, in this case his rather poor aerobic capacity for repeat efforts.

Keeler ticks those boxes for me, and as you say, having that Stanley growth spurt of "has frame, needs meat, oh hello there one pre season difference" of turning a boy into a man.

 

[Miha]

Pardon my simpleton brain but why is Ro not considered good resting forward? He can clunk a mark and has kicked some decent goals

 

[hayes]

Pardon my simpleton brain but why is Ro not considered good resting forward? He can clunk a mark and has kicked some decent goals

When you play as a tall forward you need to kick goals and Marshall hasn’t come to even one goal a game.

 

[LennyHayes77]

Pardon my simpleton brain but why is Ro not considered good resting forward? He can clunk a mark and has kicked some decent goals

I don't think he's thought of as a bad resting forward but we just don't have the luxury of leaving him there. Between rucking 90% of the quarter and getting back in defence, and being a down the line option for us, he needs some proper rest on the bench so we can't have him playing 100% game time and resting in the forward line, as even deep forwards can't exactly "rest" there any more!

 

[The Punter]

Pardon my simpleton brain but why is Ro not considered good resting forward? He can clunk a mark and has kicked some decent goals

Jack Hayes: 6 career games, 1 three goal game
Tom Campbell: 52 career games, 1 three goal game
Rowan Marshall: 113 career games, no three goal game

You watch Marshall play, he looks like he could play permanent forward. But the results show differently.

 

[Saintbloke]

I know that a two ruck setup doesn't seem to make sense these days, but I think for our particular setup, running Roma and Campbell would actually work. I would replace Butler with Campbell this week.

 

[The Punter]

I know that a two ruck setup doesn't seem to make sense these days, but I think for our particular setup, running Roma and Campbell would actually work. I would replace Butler with Campbell this week.

Can we replace Jack Sinclair with an actual statue? Feel like we're too quick and able to move.

 

[Saintbloke]

Can we replace Jack Sinclair with an actual statue? Feel like we're too quick and able to move.

What have you got against statues?

 

[Ricmel]

2017 draft: Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton.

Boy, did we select a lot of impact injuries in the one draft.

Eff me. 7, 8 and 35. What a haul.

 

[The Punter]

What have you got against statues?

I don't think they're suited to play as a pressure forward.

 

[saintmike65]

I know that a two ruck setup doesn't seem to make sense these days, but I think for our particular setup, running Roma and Campbell would actually work. I would replace Butler with Campbell this week.

problem is Cambell isn’t an AFL standard player

 

[bergholt]

The "problem" with Marshall is that his best value is clearly as a ruck rather than a ruck/fwd.

So unless we find a genuine tall fwd who could play alongside King and take the load off Marshall then it's the likes of Hayes, Owens or Caminiti filling that role.

I think that's part of the reason Max Heath spends a far bit of time fwd at Sandy.

Dream scenario would be Keeler filling out a bit and turning into a Ryder clone.

The actual problem is that King can’t ruck for some reason. If he could play 5 mins a quarter in the ruck then we’d be a better and more flexible side.

 

[saintmike65]

The actual problem is that King can’t ruck for some reason. If he could play 5 mins a quarter in the ruck then we’d be a better and more flexible side.

Pretty sure big Max has asthma, plus his past shoulder issues would potentially be problematic

 

[seasonedsainter]

This thread should be locked and banished from the first page.