Review Round 3, 2023 - Bulldogs vs. Brisbane Lions

[twhowler]

An indictment on the forwards.

Quite the stat.

The quote i keep hearing is re Noble saying we play on emotion. Weirdly rather than maturing as a group we seem to be going the other way. Even more reliant on emotions.

We don't have say a third gear. Playing decent footy that will beat any of the bottom ten sides home OR away. We have a fifth gear, then we spend time in first and second. Last night felt like an entire night in second gear. I kept thinking okay now they will lift, now they will lift.... nope. nothing.

 

[mattsmob]

Only just got around to watching the game this morning and geez it was a frustrating one, from the skills to the goals from free kicks not much went right. Having said that I thought the effort was there to start with, looked like we ran out of gas towards the end of the game though. I think playing the 5 talls (3 fwds, 2 rucks) just puts so much pressure on everyone else to lift and could be burning them out too early. Bringing on one running player at the end of the game isn't enough to give us run and carry. If we're desperate to have the two rucks I would seriously consider going back to one of them being the sub. Gives us an extra rotation that can actually run, gets Joe up the ground to relief ruck, keeps Gunston closer to goal. Then get either an extra tall that can provide fresh legs in the ruck and stretch a tired defence with height, or sub one of the 4 other talls off and keep the run while getting a fresh ruck in.

I thought Dunkley and Andrews were huge, really liked what I saw from Wilmot, Ashcroft, Starce, Payne, McKenna all decent.

The mids were okay, the defence was great, the forwards were absolutely horrible except Gunston. Daniher was himself but didn't finish anything, Charlie's pressure was okay but didn't play with much force, Hipwood barely noticeable, Bailey had a really bad game which he can be prone to. Linc has been missing for too long now, didn't provide any pressure, didn't stop his man getting the ball, didn't look dangerous at all.

Changes for next week, if Rich is available I'm bringing him in for McCarthy and moving Rayner back forward. Also don't think it's long before we see Lohmann in the best 22, especially if we get another performance like this from the forwards.

 

[twhowler]

In all fairness, we are meant to be a contending team, hence why everyone is fuming. We shouldn’t be being beaten by the dogs or port, especially when we can’t beat Geelong. We need less hurdles.

It's also not a very hard draw how it's actually played out

Round 1 port - not easy. Up at half time, any decent team wins from there
Round 2 demons - without Pickett and May (gawn gone 2 mins in)
Round 3 dogs - still without weightman, rushed players back in and Lobb looked ordinary, and dogs coming off very short break - should have been ripe to out run them in the last quarter
Round 4 - pies again off a one day shorter prep and a big friday night game v richmond

We have been given the longer breaks. We have had the tougher sides at home which is perfect as gives you a good shot at winning every game.

Our entire injury list is : Darcy Gardiner. Who is about to come back.

Rich has missed one game

Zorko has missed one game

Ah Chee has had to get match fit.

And really that'it.

As you say we are supposed to be a contender. A genuine contender wins 3-4 of those games. Let's call it 3. 2 is disappointing but perhaps the barest of pass marks. And we need to beat the pies just to manage that. It's a disastrous start and so much worse than 2021 (assuming a pies loss which i am). That year we were ambushed by the swans - similar to port game. But then went on the road for 3 weeks, had a few injuries, and our 1-3 record included a ripped off 1 point loss to the cats in geelong. We also got sent to Ballarat.

 

[Section 5]

In the 2 away games the Lions were overwhelming favorites to win. We failed badly v Port and just not good enough v Dogs.

There was so much wrong with the Port game but one thing stood out to me.
We could not get hold of the ball. Port just chipped away with possessions and eventually scored repeatedly.

In the win against Melbourne, we came out with a big change in attitude and won the ball. Thats great but you need to do positive things with the ball.
We then chipped around and retained possession until something opened up and scored. Just like Port did to us the previous week.
To do this, players repeatedly need to be moving into space to provide various options.
A bit draining on the players fitness levels, but we were able to do it for most of the night.
This also reduces the number of times you fall back to the old kick down the line to gain territory and hoping for a stoppage.

In the Dogs game we fell somewhere in-between
Attitude and hunger to bet the ball was just okay.
Overall clearance numbers okay - 4. But we lost the important center clearance 12 - 4.
However, running into space to retain possession was well down from the Demons game.
Uncontested possessions for 3 games: Port -127, Demons +16 (way more if last 12 minutes excluded) then the Dogs -34.

My biggest concern at present is we appear to require motivation to redeem ourselves and get into the right attitude to win a game.
Similar to what Port and the Dogs had to do to get their win against us.
A good team should not need this motivation.
They should be able to perform week in, week out, with very little variation in team performance.
There will be some losses along the way as that is inevitable.

 

[martinson]

In the 2 away games the Lions were overwhelming favorites to win. We failed badly v Port and just not good enough v Dogs.

There was so much wrong with the Port game but one thing stood out to me.
We could not get hold of the ball. Port just chipped away with possessions and eventually scored repeatedly.

In the win against Melbourne, we came out with a big change in attitude and won the ball. Thats great but you need to do positive things with the ball.
We then chipped around and retained possession until something opened up and scored. Just like Port did to us the previous week.
To do this, players repeatedly need to be moving into space to provide various options.
A bit draining on the players fitness levels, but we were able to do it for most of the night.
This also reduces the number of times you fall back to the old kick down the line to gain territory and hoping for a stoppage.

In the Dogs game we fell somewhere in-between
Attitude and hunger to bet the ball was just okay.
Overall clearance numbers okay - 4. But we lost the important center clearance 12 - 4.
However, running into space to retain possession was well down from the Demons game.
Uncontested possessions for 3 games: Port -127, Demons +16 (way more if last 12 minutes excluded) then the Dogs -34.

My biggest concern at present is we appear to require motivation to redeem ourselves and get into the right attitude to win a game.
Similar to what Port and the Dogs had to do to get their win against us.
A good team should not need this motivation.
They should be able to perform week in, week out, with very little variation in team performance.
There will be some losses along the way as that is inevitable.

What stood out to me in the Melbourne game was the ferocity and purpose with which we approached ever contest compared to our half pie effort against Port and our fair effort against the Dogs until it got hard and we only ran spasmodically. You can usually tell from the first bounce with us.

 

[McIvor]

My biggest concern at present is we appear to require motivation to redeem ourselves and get into the right attitude to win a game.

Good point - there always has to be a reason for this group - given maturity of many of the players, that surprises me but its hard to argue against.

It would be nice if they were professional and ' just won ' without fanfare or the like - just be methodical and win like we should be.

As others have written today - perhaps we need to adjust our expectation and accept that we have regressed and we actually are only 6-10 ranked side which is still much better than that 2010 to 2017 period.

 

[martinson]

One thing that really bothered me was all this crap about what song players choose after a goal and playing it as if they've done something great.

Let's cut all this peripheral garbage which basically feeds into players egos and concentrate solely on the footy.

 

[twhowler]

Great assessment - I am not sure whether to be worried or is it a blessing, but i think we;ll see in the next year particularly after 2024 that if we arent looking like winning a GF, that players in their mid 20's will start looking elsewhere and exercing there free agnecy rights to go to teams that will give them the best chance of winning a flag and we'll then be back to only players wanting pay days coming to Brissie.

Its for this reason that i think if we dont go close to winning the flag this year, we MUST move on Fagan and the coaches and give ourselves a year with this group of seeing whether a fresh voice can get us back on track or get the players motivated enough that they want to stick around.

Excellent post thowler

You put a lot of time into that and made many good points.

I'm still on the fence with Joyce. Most of what happened to him last night emanated from down the field or was just bad luck . Overall he's shown more than I expected.

McIvor - it's going to be interesting isn't it with so many interstaters on our list. On the plus side we will have Levi Ashcroft coming and Jaspa Fletcher just starting out. Momentum of talent seems to be a thing. I am torn on Fagan as he seems to be a very important part of making us a destination club. I just think he has hit his ceiling as a head coach.

Martinson - agree re Joyce. Payne panicked a bit last night too. I'd give him one more go and get Darcy super fit.

 

[Nathan Barley]

One thing that really bothered me was all this crap about what song players choose after a goal and playing it as if they've done something great.

Let's cut all this peripheral garbage which basically feeds into players egos and concentrate solely on the footy.

Unfortunately being a good team with the peripheral garbage probably makes more money than being a premiership team with none of it

 

[alscotoz2]

Can Brisbane win the flag while relying on Daniher and Hipwood?

“I’ll say it, they can’t win the flag with Daniher and Hipwood.”

www.sen.com.au

NO

 

[Clarkythelion]

It's just the 3rd game - be concerned but not alarmed, no need to panic.

Lets look at changes from last season.

Dunkley - certainly not letting us down, an upgrade on mid-field defence and delivering.
Gunston - replacement for McStay - getting his hands on the ball enough, showing the way in a misfiring forward line, a little inaccurate.
Ashcroft - everything and more we could have wanted from an 18 year old.
McKenner - a pass mark, certainly running out of the backline, taking on the game and trying to create opportunities.
Joyce - probably didn't think he would play, backup player, but I'd give him a pass mark on expectations and he has been solid but not flashy.
Payne to fullback fulltime. Outstanding
Rayner to the backline - yep I'll say above average start, I see the potential especially in the post Rich era.

Change of Leadership - Harris is a better player this year, Lachie is building, pretty much same same.

Wait for it......

Fagan describes the group as 'matured' and coaches from upstairs. Came down for last Qtr of the Dogs - hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'd argue this is the significant factor, 5 new players finding their way in the team and the team finding their way around them, a young gun and some positional changes - ****, come back to us, get on the sideline and in the ear of Baily, McCluggage, Jo, Hippy, Linc, Charlie and a few others.

 

[mattsmob]

It's just the 3rd game - be concerned but not alarmed, no need to panic.

Lets look at changes from last season.

Dunkley - certainly not letting us down, an upgrade on mid-field defence and delivering.
Gunston - replacement for McStay - getting his hands on the ball enough, showing the way in a misfiring forward line, a little inaccurate.
Ashcroft - everything and more we could have wanted from an 18 year old.
McKenner - a pass mark, certainly running out of the backline, taking on the game and trying to create opportunities.
Joyce - probably didn't think he would play, backup player, but I'd give him a pass mark on expectations and he has been solid but not flashy.
Payne to fullback fulltime. Outstanding
Rayner to the backline - yep I'll say above average start, I see the potential especially in the post Rich era.

Change of Leadership - Harris is a better player this year, Lachie is building, pretty much same same.

Wait for it......

Fagan describes the group as 'matured' and coaches from upstairs. Came down for last Qtr of the Dogs - hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'd argue this is the significant factor, 5 new players finding their way in the team and the team finding their way around them, a young gun and some positional changes - ****, come back to us, get on the sideline and in the ear of Baily, McCluggage, Jo, Hippy, Linc, Charlie and a few others.

Agreed, it’s important to remember we’ve made a lot of changes to our team this year and in important positions. 2 of our top 4 mids are new, one being a rookie, probably our best and most reliable key forward is new and we’re looking to transition the ball quicker from D50 this season and one of the key players in driving that is also new. They’ve all been great and probably fit in better than expected but it does mean there’s a big adjustment for the rest of the team. McCluggage and Bailey have probably had the biggest adjustments of anyone so understandable they’re taking time to hit their straps, just unfortunate they’re two of our most impactful players. We’ll get there in time.

 

[briztoon]

Apologies if it has already been mentioned, as I took a little break overnight, so I could get some actual sleep, instead of being wound up all night about what a sh!t display.

One of the things I found so frustrating was watching the ball rebounded out of forward 50 time and time again, because our talls acted like iron giants with absolutely no intention to react and provide pressure.

To add to this is Bailey being lazy as sh!t, and not even feigning any interest in helping to defend.

 

[bungalow_bill]

It was likely the plan but they should have torn the plan up when they saw how Hipwood was going.

And why Answerth as sub if you're planning to bring someone on ??? Ah Chee ,Lyons or Dev might've added something.

Ah Chee seems to be underrated by the coaches and some here. Stick him in the forward line and see what happens

 

[martinson]

Apologies if it has already been mentioned, as I took a little break overnight, so I could get some actual sleep, instead of being wound up all night about what a sh!t display.

One of the things I found so frustrating was watching the ball rebounded out of forward 50 time and time again, because our talls acted like iron giants with absolutely no intention to react and provide pressure.

To add to this is Bailey being lazy as sh!t, and not even feigning any interest in helping to defend.

It's been raised and obvious . We need a junkyard dog in there whose sole purpose is to defend and support the others . I'd go with Ah Chee.

That's before we get to the talls and others in there who need to do a whole lot more defensively.

 

[McIvor]

Ah Chee seems to be underrated by the coaches and some here. Stick him in the forward line and see what happens

Ah Chee is not underrated in my family - the sooner we get him back in the ones the better.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Ah Chee seems to be underrated by the coaches and some here. Stick him in the forward line and see what happens

Ah Chee has played more often than not but is usually made to come back via the 2s after an injury

 

[Quested]

It is early in the season, other than Sydney and Pies, the others have sputtered as well - Geelong and Freo without a win, Melbourne 1-1 and TBA so I don't think all hope is lost. BUT the cohesiveness of this team needs to get sorted. Too many players being moved around the board to try and be 'innovative' rather than keeping players in position and changing the game play.

I'm hopeful that the best is in front of us, and a couple of consecutive wins should see the ship steady. While I came in to the season thinking our defence without Adams and Gardiner was the biggest problem, last night highlighted the forward line needs the most attention.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Live from the game last night: Second Quarter observations sums us up:

“Some observations from the game.

We are supposed to have this crash hot midfield and we are treating the corridor like it is a minefield.

Payne could pound for pound have the lowest football IQ in the AFL.

We were practising kick ins with the U11’s at training this arvo and I told the boys never, ever do what Payne did when he dinked a 6 metre pass to Coleman who was red hot (GOAL FOOTSCRAY) the kids looked at me like I was stating the absolute obvious and they said, yeah of course not. We then ran a kick out drill and it went like clockwork. If 11 year olds can get it what is up with Payne?

Andrew’s tough guy routine bumping a player over WHEN THE BALL WAS BASICALLY DEAD. Dumb, dumb, dumb - Goal Footscray.

Fagan just might be going backwards as a coach. He just doesn’t seem to be able to teach players to get the basic things right. The players need to get smarter, but the reverse appears to be happening.”

Addendum

When I picked my son up from school today he said, “Dad, we were rubbish last night, can we just never mention that game again?” I said yes straight away. The same applies in here. I’ve said everything I’ve got to say in here.

Over to you Fagan.

 

[western royboy]

Live from the game last night: Second Quarter observations sums us up:

Some observations from the game.

We are supposed to have this crash hot midfield and we are treating the corridor like it is a minefield.

Payne could pound for pound have the lowest football IQ in the AFL.

We were practising kick ins with the U11’s at training this arvo and I told the boys never, ever do what Payne did when he dinked a 6 metre pass to Coleman who was red hot (GOAL FOOTSCRAY) the kids looked at me like I was stating the absolute obvious and they said, yeah of course not. We then ran a kick out drill and it went like clockwork. If 11 year olds can get it what is up with Payne?

Andrew’s tough guy routine bumping a player over WHEN THE BALL WAS BASICALLY DEAD. Dumb, dumb, dumb - Goal Footscray.

Fagan just might be going backwards as a coach. He just doesn’t seem to be able to teach players to get the basic things right. The players need to get smarter, but the reverse appears to be happening.

Addendum

When I picked my son up from school today he said, “Dad, we were rubbish last night, can we just never mention that game again?” I said yes straight away. The same applies in here. I’ve said everything I’ve got to say in here.

Over to you Fagan.

Camperdown Magpies look destined for a long year as well

 

[Thomasno]

It is early in the season, other than Sydney and Pies, the others have sputtered as well - Geelong and Freo without a win, Melbourne 1-1 and TBA so I don't think all hope is lost. BUT the cohesiveness of this team needs to get sorted. Too many players being moved around the board to try and be 'innovative' rather than keeping players in position and changing the game play.

I'm hopeful that the best is in front of us, and a couple of consecutive wins should see the ship steady. While I came in to the season thinking our defence without Adams and Gardiner was the biggest problem, last night highlighted the forward line needs the most attention.

This is something to look at I guess. The 4 flag favourites coming into the season (Melbourne, Geelong, Brisbane, Dogs) could all very well be 1-2 by the end of this weekend.

 

[chopperduck]

Long season and early season form is usually pretty trash for all teams. The concern is the pattern of behaviour. If we don't dominate clearance and contested ball, we basically lose. I have a feeling a lot of those contested ball numbers come from winning the ball off the deck as well. We have a real probably at getting players front and center to win the ball back from a contest.

 

[morsie]

Unacceptable especially on a Thursday night.My weekend is ruined and we don't get a chance at redemption until Easter.Looking at 1 and 3 and Dermie's prediction is starting get legs.

 

[snooplions]

the only positive for me last night was that hip and shoulder from Ashcroft in the same action of cleanly picking up the ball, and the follow up handball. The commentators at the time said it reminded them of Michael Voss. Gave me chills.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Camperdown Magpies look destined for a long year as well

I pulled my quad at training on the Leura oval. Grade 3 tear. Not much fun on a freezing Thursday night.