Review Round 6 v St Kilda @ Coopers Stadium (Norwood)

[Firewalker]

Ugly game of skills. St Kilda play a very ugly style of football.

Funny thing is they didn’t start the season doing that they actually had a pretty efficient way of moving the ball, they showed glimpses of still doing that tonight. It’s just after some losses Dal Santo has done what a lot of coaches have shown to do in this league especially when they come up against the Crows they just coach for self preservation and to save themselves & the team from looking bad so you end up with whatever that was.

Clarke isn’t exactly blameless either though he knows what these opposition coaches are doing and he knows most of the time it’s a relatively fruitless exercise when playing that way but like tonight he can be overly stubborn and on occasions get sucked into to it as well especially when something isn’t exactly humming like tonight with the goal kicking, or in recent weeks when some of the contest work hasn’t been at its best.

 

[MarcusP2]

Saints probably win that 5 out of 10 times.

We ended up needing 2 miracle goals to win.

 

[brucetiki]

That was ugly - though not as ugly as the St Kilda supporter at the southern end end in the third quarter.

But we take the win and focus on Wednesday

 

[cmndstab]

What a deeply frustrating game of football to watch. Credit to St Kilda, they kept themselves in the game long enough to have a genuine chance of snatching it. I thought they might tire in the second half, but they fought it out right to the end. Thank goodness we managed to hold on.

The club needs to be realistic and acknowledge that our forward line is not working. We are staying in games due to exceptional defence and the brute force of Marinoff in the midfield. If we could find a way to generate regular shots on goal (and actually convert some of them) we would bury teams. I'm not sure if it's a personnel issue or a structure issue, but it happens every week - we dominate in defence, and do well through the midfield, but once we get up forward we fumble, we drop marks, we miss set shots, and it comes back out again. Perhaps we need to just make it simple and kick to chests in the forward line?

The umpires tonight were absolutely determined to play HTB at every possible opportunity. It was pretty ugly stuff.

Realistically, coming off a five day break after a tough match against Brisbane, with Varnhagen and Boileau coming in and offering very little, Ballard out injured, and Mueller missing part of the match, I guess that makes it a good win. Just wish we had some kind of plan for what to do when we're outnumbered in our forward line.

Marinoff best on again, she surely has to be a genuine chance for league MVP this season, especially since Hatchard won't be stealing so many votes off her this time around. Prowse extremely good, Biddell and Allan also quality in defence. Jess Allan was good in patches. Hatchard had a good last quarter but wasn't offering much prior to that. Ponter still down, it's starting to be a worry. Charlton and Newman looking quality, Munyard starting to show some very promising signs as well. Randall continuing to be Chelsea Randall.

Lock the four points away and throw away the videotape.

 

[steve9798]

Horrendous skills. You would want your money back if you were foolish enough to pay to watch that.

 

[cmndstab]

So... Mueller with a migraine. Could this be the answer to why she hasn't been playing?

Fingers crossed for Ballard, if she's done another ACL it could be the end of her career.

 

[Firewalker]

That was ugly - though not as ugly as the St Kilda supporter at the southern end end in the third quarter.

But we take the win and focus on Wednesday

Now that was annoying

The club needs to be realistic and acknowledge that our forward line is not working. We are staying in games due to exceptional defence and the brute force of Marinoff in the midfield. If we could find a way to generate regular shots on goal (and actually convert some of them) we would bury teams. I'm not sure if it's a personnel issue or a structure issue, but it happens every week - we dominate in defence, and do well through the midfield, but once we get up forward we fumble, we drop marks, we miss set shots, and it comes back out again. Perhaps we need to just make it simple and kick to chests in the forward line?

The forward line is just f****d and insanity personified, it’s been the same way for the previous 2 seasons and probably stopped the club from having another premiership on the mantle and might well stop them from winning one again this year.

I went and stood behind the goals in the 2nd quarter for a bit to just see if there was any talk, instructions or structure they were trying to hold, nothing even remotely close to it. Gould and Ponter were just standing right next to each other with their opponents with the extra for the saints right in front of them - you would’ve struggled to fit a playing card between all of them as they just wondered around the top of the goal square. Finally Hatchard came down and I was thinking ok then she’s going to either try to create room for the other two or at least drag the extra away by leading but no the ball goes down there and all three of Gould, Ponter & Hatchard just go for the exact same ball because they’re literally lined up right next to each other and spoil each other.

You can see why teams like using all those extras behind the ball because Gould hardly leads inside 50 she maybe makes 3-4 decent leads a game so unless Gould flies and grabs a bomb kick in there it’s just total confusion up there, they just struggle to spread out and find space. Ponter is one of the main causes as unless she’s served it up on a platter & manages to find separation on a double back lead one-on-one or gets out the back of an opponent she’s struggling to have an impact in any contest.

Another horrible issue is whilst Munyard when she’s played deeper in attack like the second half against the Lions & at stages against the Saints looks slightly dangerous because her pace covers for some of her otherwise limited ability but other than that Clarke is asking all players who have grown up playing as midfielders to play forward and they just simply can’t; Kustermann, Boileau, Levy, Martin ect. literally have zero ability of knowing want to do as a forward so all they do is try to stand off and pressure or if they get the ball their first instinct is to handball it backwards or sideways to someone else like they would do if they were playing as an inside midfielder. It’s a mess that just keeps on repeating.

 

[1990crow]

3 goals a piece game isn't going to attract people to watch AFLW.

I think they need to do something to improve the product.

 

[dplggr47]

Now that was annoying


The forward line is just f****d and insanity personified, it’s been the same way for the previous 2 seasons and probably stopped the club from having another premiership on the mantle and might well stop them from winning one again this year.

I went and stood behind the goals in the 2nd quarter for a bit to just see if there was any talk, instructions or structure they were trying to hold, nothing even remotely close to it. Gould and Ponter were just standing right next to each other with their opponents with the extra for the saints right in front of them - you would’ve struggled to fit a playing card between all of them as they just wondered around the top of the goal square. Finally Hatchard came down and I was thinking ok then she’s going to either try to create room for the other two or at least drag the extra away by leading but no the ball goes down there and all three of Gould, Ponter & Hatchard just go for the exact same ball because they’re literally lined up right next to each other and spoil each other.

You can see why teams like using all those extras behind the ball because Gould hardly leads inside 50 she maybe makes 3-4 decent leads a game so unless Gould flies and grabs a bomb kick in there it’s just total confusion up there, they just struggle to spread out and find space. Ponter is one of the main causes as unless she’s served it up on a platter & manages to find separation on a double back lead one-on-one or gets out the back of an opponent she’s struggling to have an impact in any contest.

Another horrible issue is whilst Munyard when she’s played deeper in attack like the second half against the Lions & at stages against the Saints looks slightly dangerous because her pace covers for some of her otherwise limited ability but other than that Clarke is asking all players who have grown up playing as midfielders to play forward and they just simply can’t; Kustermann, Boileau, Levy, Martin ect. literally have zero ability of knowing want to do as a forward so all they do is try to stand off and pressure or if they get the ball their first instinct is to handball it backwards or sideways to someone else like they would do if they were playing as an inside midfielder. It’s a mess that just keeps on repeating.

Hatchard is a great mark, but she doesn't know how to lead to the ball and often stands waiting for the ball to come to her. This can often lead to players cutting it off and spoiling. She usually just relies on her strength to take a contested mark. Gould and Ponter are more likely to lead to the ball. Ponter has been really disappointing these last couple weeks. I don't know what's wrong with her. Is it the return of Gould? Less space for Ponter?

 

[Firewalker]

3 goals a piece game isn't going to attract people to watch AFLW.

I think they need to do something to improve the product.

I know it’s been talked about before and I talked about it earlier in the season but I do think they should at least trial a zonal system. I know there will be blowback i.e. it’s not netball ect. or you are changing the fabric of the game or even you wouldn’t take these measures with the men’s footy ect. but I still feel the coaches are playing such a huge role in lots of the issues that still affect the AFLW product.

If you want to break it down really basically tactically there seems to be 3 kinds of teams league wide; the teams that like to keep extra numbers behind the ball but do play a higher line to build more of a intercepting wall (Crows & North are 2 of these) and these are the teams that try to get repeat inside 50s, try to lock it in and use weight of inside 50 numbers as their scoring methodology, the second kind uses some similar traits but are usually your less talented teams so they play deeper extra defenders behind the ball in more a ‘park the bus’ flood and instead try to absorb a lot of pressure and try to play on the counter attack and try to score by running players back into the forward 50, then there’s the 3rd kind that are the teams that are bringing all their numbers up to the stoppages around the ground who are trying to lock the ball into an rolling maul ground ball contest, then depending on their teams individual players strengths they either use quick hands or speed around the contest to break away & run the ball into their forward line (this is a Brisbane methodology that teams like Hawthorn & Essendon have adopted).

For mine first port of call to stop the flooding and congestion is you have to try to take some power away from what these coaches (of which a lot of their methods are based on preservation) are doing to start with, whether you start basic and trial forcing each team to keep 2 or 3 players inside each 50 all game who knows maybe that will help things to start with.

Sure there’s lots of other factors that have been mentioned before that all play a big part as well; lack of experienced coaching, poor preparation, strength & conditioning ect. and the bigger example size we get even things like environmental and physiological factors are proving to be a factors that do naturally limit the women’s game, something that would seem quizzical like weather exposure on the grounds they play on or even down to it’s naturally harder for a lot of women’s hands to actually grip and handle a leather football.

I know that last bit may seem puzzling or slightly stereotypical but I had my sister & friends who always struggled if they kicked a leather football but were quite good with the grippier synthetic football, even when I played I had to rely nearly exclusively on grippo because my kicking/ball handling suffered a lot because I had big palms/short fingers and hands that generally weren’t suited to holding on to the leather ball. Unsurprisingly not being able to control or do exactly what you want with the ball in hand leads to a scrubbier result.

 

[cmndstab]

Hatchard's problem at the moment is that she's super fumbly. She almost always ends up having to double-grab the mark, or fumbles the ball upon picking it up, etc. It means that instead of doing something clean, she ends up needing to rush her possession, or the best option dries up, or whatever. If she could just tidy her hands up a bit she'd get back to her best pretty soon.

Our forward line is full of players who aren't big kicks. Ponter can kick it long if she's on the run, but for set shots or when she's gathering loose balls and snapping around the corner it usually doesn't go far. Gould is good for around 25m on a set shot. Same issue with Martin when she's down there. It means that most defences know that as long as you keep someone in the goal square, they will be a good chance to smother essentially every shot we have at goal, unless we mark literally within 20m.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Try to orchestrate some more set shots close to goal? Get some of our better kicks into the forward line? I wasn't a fan of moving Biddell up there, but at least she's a good long kick. I still think that Kelly would be good up forward.

 

[Scorpus]

I know it’s been talked about before and I talked about it earlier in the season but I do think they should at least trial a zonal system. I know there will be blowback i.e. it’s not netball ect. or you are changing the fabric of the game or even you wouldn’t take these measures with the men’s footy ect. but I still feel the coaches are playing such a huge role in lots of the issues that still affect the AFLW product.

If you want to break it down really basically tactically there seems to be 3 kinds of teams league wide; the teams that like to keep extra numbers behind the ball but do play a higher line to build more of a intercepting wall (Crows & North are 2 of these) and these are the teams that try to get repeat inside 50s, try to lock it in and use weight of inside 50 numbers as their scoring methodology, the second kind uses some similar traits but are usually your less talented teams so they play deeper extra defenders behind the ball in more a ‘park the bus’ flood and instead try to absorb a lot of pressure and try to play on the counter attack and try to score by running players back into the forward 50, then there’s the 3rd kind that are the teams that are bringing all their numbers up to the stoppages around the ground who are trying to lock the ball into an rolling maul ground ball contest, then depending on their teams individual players strengths they either use quick hands or speed around the contest to break away & run the ball into their forward line (this is a Brisbane methodology that teams like Hawthorn & Essendon have adopted).

For mine first port of call to stop the flooding and congestion is you have to try to take some power away from what these coaches (of which a lot of their methods are based on preservation) are doing to start with, whether you start basic and trial forcing each team to keep 2 or 3 players inside each 50 all game who knows maybe that will help things to start with.

Sure there’s lots of other factors that have been mentioned before that all play a big part as well; lack of experienced coaching, poor preparation, strength & conditioning ect. and the bigger example size we get even things like environmental and physiological factors are proving to be a factors that do naturally limit the women’s game, something that would seem quizzical like weather exposure on the grounds they play on or even down to it’s naturally harder for a lot of women’s hands to actually grip and handle a leather football.

I know that last bit may seem puzzling or slightly stereotypical but I had my sister & friends who always struggled if they kicked a leather football but were quite good with the grippier synthetic football, even when I played I had to rely nearly exclusively on grippo because my kicking/ball handling suffered a lot because I had big palms/short fingers and hands that generally weren’t suited to holding on to the leather ball.

Use player GPS tracking and dock teams premiership points when they flood defense for too long.

Sell it like over rate penalties in cricket. You could even force players off the ground for the last quarter if teams are found to flood too much

 

[cmndstab]

The problem is, if the league enforces that it would likely just mean that those weaker teams just end up getting blown away. Yes, 3.8 to 3.4 is a pretty ugly contest... but is 12.8 to 1.4 any better?

 

[Firewalker]

Hatchard's problem at the moment is that she's super fumbly. She almost always ends up having to double-grab the mark, or fumbles the ball upon picking it up, etc. It means that instead of doing something clean, she ends up needing to rush her possession, or the best option dries up, or whatever. If she could just tidy her hands up a bit she'd get back to her best pretty soon.

Our forward line is full of players who aren't big kicks. Ponter can kick it long if she's on the run, but for set shots or when she's gathering loose balls and snapping around the corner it usually doesn't go far. Gould is good for around 25m on a set shot. Same issue with Martin when she's down there. It means that most defences know that as long as you keep someone in the goal square, they will be a good chance to smother essentially every shot we have at goal, unless we mark literally within 20m.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Try to orchestrate some more set shots close to goal? Get some of our better kicks into the forward line? I wasn't a fan of moving Biddell up there, but at least she's a good long kick. I still think that Kelly would be good up forward.

I just think simply the personnel is not on the list for that traditional type of functioning forward line, the recruiting department has just had their head in the sand when it’s come to forwards given it’s been the main problem for a while.

Think the only short-term solution is to go that speedy run it in route, so basically run it back to 2019. Thompson desperately needs to be moved back forward, her decision making higher up the ground is inconsistent to say the least but at least inside 50 she doesn’t hesitate and just goes straight for the goals, they could use that up there again. Just put all the speed up there Thompson, Boyle-Carr, Munyard, Kelly and tell them just to run it in close to goal.

Need to hope for as I like to call her ‘the saviour’ Charlotte Riggs to be available at draft time.

 

[cmndstab]

We certainly seem to have avoided recruiting any worthwhile forwards for a long time. With apologies to Bonner who was a very short-term stopgap, I don't think we've recruited a decent forward since Woodland back in 2020. I certainly don't count Dowrick. Maybe Tarlinton will eventually get there but she seems to be the least-favoured player on the list right now.

 

[dplggr47]

I know that last bit may seem puzzling or slightly stereotypical but I had my sister & friends who always struggled if they kicked a leather football but were quite good with the grippier synthetic football, even when I played I had to rely nearly exclusively on grippo because my kicking/ball handling suffered a lot because I had big palms/short fingers and hands that generally weren’t suited to holding on to the leather ball. Unsurprisingly not being able to control or do exactly what you want with the ball in hand leads to a scrubbier result.

I was the same when I started learning to kick a footy when I was young. I transitioned to the smoother footy as I got older and didn't want to go back to the grippier ones. The only thing you can't change is size of hand/fingers. Some girls will always have small hands and/or short fingers, but to make it at AFLW level, you'd have to be at a higher level to get there.

 

[dplggr47]

We certainly seem to have avoided recruiting any worthwhile forwards for a long time. With apologies to Bonner who was a very short-term stopgap, I don't think we've recruited a decent forward since Woodland back in 2020. I certainly don't count Dowrick. Maybe Tarlinton will eventually get there but she seems to be the least-favoured player on the list right now.

Gould is our only main forward target and she had offers last year to leave (along with Prowse). If she left, we'd be screwed.

 

[cmndstab]

Gould is our only main forward target and she had offers last year to leave (along with Prowse). If she left, we'd be screwed.

We'd be screwed if Prowse left as well.

I guess we have also recruited Waterhouse in that time who is very much a forward, but unfortunately just hasn't quite worked out.

 

[1990crow]

I know it’s been talked about before and I talked about it earlier in the season but I do think they should at least trial a zonal system. I know there will be blowback i.e. it’s not netball ect. or you are changing the fabric of the game or even you wouldn’t take these measures with the men’s footy ect. but I still feel the coaches are playing such a huge role in lots of the issues that still affect the AFLW product.

If you want to break it down really basically tactically there seems to be 3 kinds of teams league wide; the teams that like to keep extra numbers behind the ball but do play a higher line to build more of a intercepting wall (Crows & North are 2 of these) and these are the teams that try to get repeat inside 50s, try to lock it in and use weight of inside 50 numbers as their scoring methodology, the second kind uses some similar traits but are usually your less talented teams so they play deeper extra defenders behind the ball in more a ‘park the bus’ flood and instead try to absorb a lot of pressure and try to play on the counter attack and try to score by running players back into the forward 50, then there’s the 3rd kind that are the teams that are bringing all their numbers up to the stoppages around the ground who are trying to lock the ball into an rolling maul ground ball contest, then depending on their teams individual players strengths they either use quick hands or speed around the contest to break away & run the ball into their forward line (this is a Brisbane methodology that teams like Hawthorn & Essendon have adopted).

For mine first port of call to stop the flooding and congestion is you have to try to take some power away from what these coaches (of which a lot of their methods are based on preservation) are doing to start with, whether you start basic and trial forcing each team to keep 2 or 3 players inside each 50 all game who knows maybe that will help things to start with.

Sure there’s lots of other factors that have been mentioned before that all play a big part as well; lack of experienced coaching, poor preparation, strength & conditioning ect. and the bigger example size we get even things like environmental and physiological factors are proving to be a factors that do naturally limit the women’s game, something that would seem quizzical like weather exposure on the grounds they play on or even down to it’s naturally harder for a lot of women’s hands to actually grip and handle a leather football.

I know that last bit may seem puzzling or slightly stereotypical but I had my sister & friends who always struggled if they kicked a leather football but were quite good with the grippier synthetic football, even when I played I had to rely nearly exclusively on grippo because my kicking/ball handling suffered a lot because I had big palms/short fingers and hands that generally weren’t suited to holding on to the leather ball. Unsurprisingly not being able to control or do exactly what you want with the ball in hand leads to a scrubbier result.

I think they should just bring the goals in about 20m each end. Ball movement, kicking strength and marking is the problem.

 

[Firewalker]

Gould is our only main forward target and she had offers last year to leave (along with Prowse). If she left, we'd be screwed.

And she’s an accidental forward, I did find myself saying yesterday they need to send out scouts to Volleyball matches to find another half decent forward.

 

[cmndstab]

I think they should just bring the goals in about 20m each end. Ball movement, kicking strength and marking is the problem.

I'm not convinced. Smaller grounds just mean more congestion, less opportunity to take marks for set shots, etc. Over the history of AFLW so far the higher scoring games have tended to occur at larger grounds.

 

[cmndstab]

And she’s an accidental forward, I did find myself saying yesterday they need to send out scouts to Volleyball matches to find another half decent forward.

Absolutely. Let's pick up some basketballers as well. Just need someone tall with good hand-eye coordination to plonk up there.

If we can't find some decent forwards from the SANFLW scraps left after Port's picks, we should take every free hit available. I'm already liking what Boyle-Carr is bringing only a few months into learning how to play the game.

 

[Tas]

I'm not convinced. Smaller grounds just mean more congestion, less opportunity to take marks for set shots, etc. Over the history of AFLW so far the higher scoring games have tended to occur at larger grounds.

The key is to kick shorter. There aren't a lot of high flying women who can take a lot of contested pack marks, we improved our scoring a lot more just hitting the shorter passes that have a higher probability of leading to marks and retaining the ball. Move the ball faster, go for higher probability passes.

 

[Firewalker]

I'm not convinced. Smaller grounds just mean more congestion, less opportunity to take marks for set shots, etc. Over the history of AFLW so far the higher scoring games have tended to occur at larger grounds.

This is my thoughts as well, one of the reasons I also believe Norwood Oval has really hindered how the Crows like to play especially in recent years and also leads to uglier games at that venue.

Can’t wait for the club to get away from that ground for many reasons but that’s certainly one of them.

 

[cmndstab]

This is my thoughts as well, one of the reasons I also believe Norwood Oval has really hindered how the Crows like to play especially in recent years and also leads to uglier games at that venue.

Can’t wait for the club to get away from that ground for many reasons but that’s certainly one of them.

Yes, I'm always bemused when the commentators say that we have a great record at Norwood. Like yeah, sure, we've been one of the top teams since AFLW began, of course our record there is good. But it's not nearly as good as the other home grounds we play on and it clearly doesn't suit our style of play.