Review Round 8, 2023 - Carlton vs. Brisbane Lions

[Grasshopper17]

I was actually starting to feel a tiny bit of anxiety because we seemed to have gone right into our shells and not that I rate Carlton but when any team gets a run of goals at that point in the match sometimes you never know.

Then they showed vision of Fages in the box and I thought no ,relax,I'm doing fine.

The funny thing is that even though I agree in that I'd like our last quarters to be better, for all our anxiety (and yes I felt it too), Carlton never managed more than 2 consecutive goals against us in the last quarter.

Warts and all, sure, but we've been really good in the last few weeks at stopping those seemingly endless runs of goals against us.

 

[Doc Hattori]

Outstanding win. Was a pleasure to watch the Carlton fans streaming out of the ground late in the 3rd qtr.

Definitely wasn't hard to get a seat on the train AFTER the game

 

[Grasshopper17]

Definitely wasn't hard to get a seat on the train AFTER the game

The irony of everybody leaving early to "beat the traffic".

You ARE the traffic, people!

 

[Jivlain]

Very much agree with this. I think the extra layer of abstraction from the game that comes with the coaching box makes him feel utterly powerless and frustrated. I get he probably wants to team to develop more autonomy on field but I honestly worry for his health in the box. You can see the stress fumes coming off his body.

During his press conference Voss alluded to a letter the league had sent to senior coaches about coaching from the bench. I'm not sure of the contents but it sounded like they were at least discouraging it.

 

[Doc Hattori]

During his press conference Voss alluded to a letter the league had sent to senior coaches about coaching from the bench. I'm not sure of the contents but it sounded like they were at least discouraging it.

Supposedly said (re that) 1. don't go out of your area (which any junior coach knows) & 2. don't glare at the emergency goal umpire

 

[SRH17]

Supposedly said (re that) 1. don't go out of your area (which any junior coach knows) & 2. don't glare at the emergency goal umpire

What a laugh. Have they ever watched the NFL where the referees and the coaching staff are cheek to jowl on the sideline?

 

[Nathan Barley]

Might have moved the ball forward but it then goes back over his head very quickly. Usually rucks try and get the ball to the skilful, quick mids. Even rucks who can kick unlike Oscar who's one of the lest skilful especially in contested situations

Take out the frees he had 5 clearances from 83 contests and he allowed the opposition first use of the ball

Oh, 1 of the frees and clearances was 6-6-6 violation

Also a free and clearance for when Neale got elbowed

 

[Hollow Knight]

What a laugh. Have they ever watched the NFL where the referees and the coaching staff are cheek to jowl on the sideline?

Not something we need to see here.

 

[Hollow Knight]

1 week ban for Nic Newman

24

Nic Newman

Age

31

Ht

186cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

13.7

5star

HB

5.9

4star

M

5.5

5star

T

3.3

5star

MG

400.8

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

1.0

1star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

MG

157.0

3star

D

22.4

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

9.6

5star

M

5.4

5star

T

3.6

5star

MG

387.8

5star

.

 

[NeverEddie]

For all those who constantly complain about Vic bias in the media, I hope you enjoyed last night, they spent about 45 mins after the game talking about how good we are.

They were about to start crapping on about Carlton but Lyons pulled them into line and said, no we need to talk about the Lions. Not much of a fan of Lyons but he did the right thing there.

 

[HereIGoAgain]

Just a note after checking out the Carlton board reaction.

It was mentioned more than a few times that Oscar gave their ruck a going over, so to speak.

 

[briztoon]

Carlton have cooked their list build imo.

Nit enough cake to help Cripps and Walsh who are being Judded to death after trying to carry the midfield on their shoulders. If Dunkley swapped teams last night it would have looked like a very different game.

Overspent on poaching cream on cake players like Martin, Saad and Zac Williams. Cerra is playing very well to be for, but he’s not ever going to be a guy that turns games himself IMO.

Overcapitalised their forward line on the two towers at the expensive of a balanced forward line.

Weitering is banged up and getting exploited by opponents dragging him up the field.

The whole thing is out of balance. Harder to brown bag your way out of it in the modern era too. They will top out at a 6th-8th team at best.

Like many Carlton coaches before him I fear Voss will ultimately be scapegoated for the failings of list managers and board members who like landing big fish.

Not sure I agree with everything you said.

I don't understand how they overcapitalised selecting McKay at pick 10 and Curnow at pick 12 in 2015. It's not like they traded multiple first round draft picks across a couple of drafts to get them.

Certainly overspent adding the likes of Martin and Williams.

Certainly agree that their list gets very ordinary after the top 12 to 15 players. And a lot of that has to do with poor trading and poor drafting.

I also believe their list is set up to play a game style from from a decade ago, to many big bodies inside and not enough runners. And watching last night, they didn't work hard enough off the ball, and that's on the players.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Not sure I agree with everything you said.

I don't understand how they overcapitalised selecting McKay at pick 10 and Curnow at pick 12 in 2015. It's not like they traded multiple first round draft picks across a couple of drafts to get them.

Salary, not picks.

 

[Thomasno]

During his press conference Voss alluded to a letter the league had sent to senior coaches about coaching from the bench. I'm not sure of the contents but it sounded like they were at least discouraging it.

The story was broken by Tom Browne last night (gee wonder how he got hold of that one). They’re discouraging it because they don’t want the coaches mere presence intimidating umpires. That’s literally it.

This whole umpiring thing is getting ridiculous. The standard has dropped so much it’s not funny. Hey maybe instead of telling the coaches to not even LOOK at the umpires because they’re scared, instead work on increasing the standards so we don’t routinely get served up the absolute tripe we currently are.

Yes I’m still angry about the suns game.

 

[Thomasno]

Not sure I agree with everything you said.

I don't understand how they overcapitalised selecting McKay at pick 10 and Curnow at pick 12 in 2015. It's not like they traded multiple first round draft picks across a couple of drafts to get them.

Certainly overspent adding the likes of Martin and Williams.

Certainly agree that their list gets very ordinary after the top 12 to 15 players. And a lot of that has to do with poor trading and poor drafting.

I also believe their list is set up to play a game style from from a decade ago, to many big bodies inside and not enough runners. And watching last night, they didn't work hard enough off the ball, and that's on the players.

Picks aren’t the issue, as HK said it’s salary. When Curnow came back last year and set the comp on fire, the prevailing sentiment was “no way are Carlton gonna be able to keep both and maintain good list management, they’ll have to pick one”.

Then they signed both on massive long term deals.

Their salary cap is cooked now because of that, and it essentially means their bottom end talent is always going to be BOTTOM end talent now because there’s no room to give guys a nudge up a pay bracket.

 

[Jivlain]

The story was broken by Tom Browne last night (gee wonder how he got hold of that one). They’re discouraging it because they don’t want the coaches mere presence intimidating umpires. That’s literally it.

This whole umpiring thing is getting ridiculous. The standard has dropped so much it’s not funny. Hey maybe instead of telling the coaches to not even LOOK at the umpires because they’re scared, instead work on increasing the standards so we don’t routinely get served up the absolute tripe we currently are.

Yes I’m still angry about the suns game.

Ta, here's the text if anyone's curious

 

[briztoon]

Salary, not picks.

Those two are 100% worth what they're paid. Martin, is not.

If you're going to pick an area of the ground they have over capitalised on, it's their half backs.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Those two are 100% worth what they're paid. Martin, is not.

McKay questionable.

If you're going to pick an area of the ground they have over capitalised on, it's their half backs.

Yes, which I also said.

 

[McIvor]

Armchair experts program with Georgie Parker, some of her thoughts paraphrased post game:

“I still don’t rate Brisbane”

(Then reels off who we have beaten including Melbourne and Collingwood)

“Maybe it’s because Cameron’s kicked 26, Danihers kicked 18, Hipwoods kicked 13 and Baileys kicked 11”
“You can’t have your small forwards kicking more than your big forwards”

A team with a regular spread of goal kickers just steamrolled a team that relies heavily on 1-2.
Averaging almost the most goals per game as a team.

So Cameron’s on track for 70
Daniher 60+, Eric 40+ with 2-3 on track for 30+ potentially.

A-Grade idiot, stick to IG.

All I want to know is who is she? She's just an echo chamber who rates herself way too highly, why I have no clue and given it is a footy show, albeit a really, really terrible one, her knowledge of footy is ridiculously poor.

Please dont say AFLW - which for some reason, b/c one played in it, automatically makes them knowledgeable about the game - I can assure you it does't and the sample size is pretty large b/c the AFL competition and how to play the game requires actual knowledge. Dont get me started on Daisy or Abbey...

As for IG, probably says more about the human race that she even has any followers.

 

[buttermuffs]

Ta, here's the text if anyone's curious
View attachment 1680268

That’s fair. If there’s been a noticed increase in contact with the official’s bench I have no doubt it’s done by staff/coaches/players who are calm.

In my experience in umpiring when younger the amount of adult coaches that decided it was a perfect idea to scream abuse at a 13 year old relentlessly from the sidelines was common. I have no doubt that much like the tightening abuse rules that this is always meant to help improve the treatment of umpires and officials outside the main league.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[luthor]

The story was broken by Tom Browne last night (gee wonder how he got hold of that one). They’re discouraging it because they don’t want the coaches mere presence intimidating umpires. That’s literally it.

This whole umpiring thing is getting ridiculous. The standard has dropped so much it’s not funny. Hey maybe instead of telling the coaches to not even LOOK at the umpires because they’re scared, instead work on increasing the standards so we don’t routinely get served up the absolute tripe we currently are.

Yes I’m still angry about the suns game.

I'm still shaking my head at the umpiring in the Suns game.

That was another level of bad.

Like watching the Zac Bailey non HTB in the last few seconds in the Geelong game a couple of years ago......only on repeat for four quarters.

 

[McIvor]

The story was broken by Tom Browne last night (gee wonder how he got hold of that one). They’re discouraging it because they don’t want the coaches mere presence intimidating umpires. That’s literally it.

This whole umpiring thing is getting ridiculous. The standard has dropped so much it’s not funny. Hey maybe instead of telling the coaches to not even LOOK at the umpires because they’re scared, instead work on increasing the standards so we don’t routinely get served up the absolute tripe we currently are.

Yes I’m still angry about the suns game.

I just dont understand why umps are the only ones in the whole AFL competiion / community are unaccountable and immune from being questioned or criticised?

The VFL level is even more deplorable and yet it is just the biggest elephant in the room after certain games and we have to pretend that things havent happened in games / that biases dont exist / that certain players and clubs are judged differently / why umps are so inconsistent, even within games compared to there collegaues - and yet we have walk on egg shells and just ignore it.

Its actually rather pathetic the protection they are afforded and why they arent answerable for so much patheticness.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I'm still shaking my head at the umpiring in the Suns game.

That was another level of bad.

Like watching the Zac Bailey non HTB in the last few seconds in the Geelong game a couple of years ago......only on repeat for four quarters.

I didn't see all that game, but the worst call I saw for the day was Keays being clearly held without the ball in his attacking goal square, down by 2 goals with just under 4 minutes to go. Geelong rebounded for a goal. Would have been a perfect time for a captain's challenge!

 

[NeverEddie]

That’s fair. If there’s been a noticed increase in contact with the official’s bench I have no doubt it’s done by staff/coaches/players who are calm.

In my experience in umpiring when younger the amount of adult coaches that decided it was a perfect idea to scream abuse at a 13 year old relentlessly from the sidelines was common. I have no doubt that much like the tightening abuse rules that this is always meant to help improve the treatment of umpires and officials outside the main league.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

There has been ample evidence that many of the things the league is doing with umpiring are driven by issues that are occurring at the community level. The approach to addressing these issues has not been for the league to invest in increasing the standard of community umpiring as a way of reducing umpire abuse (I'm not speculating with that comment, as a club participant in community footy at the administrative level, I know what we are and are not seeing in terms of community umpire training), rather, it's been to make is so that the umpires are completely untouchable, regardless of how good or bad they are. The umps are protected from feedback/criticism and there is no recourse for aggrieved parties to address perceived wrongs at the community level.

But this approach will not work and actually could make things worse because, generally speaking, resentment with no outlet does not just go away. It simmers.

I believe the only real way to fix it is to take the grey out of some of the rules and make things more black and white for the umps. Make the game easier to umpire. The amount of grey in the current rules allows observers to credibly disagree with many of the umpires rulings. This leads umps open to accusations of bias and/or incompetence and, whether we like to admit it or not, it also gives ample room for actual bias (umps are humans . . .humans are cheats by nature). Bias is probably less prevalent in the main league where umps are constantly being assessed and they would be jeopardizing their job if any pattern of actual bias was identified, but there are no such checks at the community level. Community umps are aware that there are no consequence to a poor or a biased performance.

Removing some of the grey will remove many avenues for decisions that can be credible disagreed with and will remove avenues for biased decisions. That will go a good way towards addressing the issue of abuse at the community level. It will never be completely resolved, people will always find ways do disagree with decisions (all sports), but the rules of our game are worse than most in terms of the level of grey.

 

[Grasshopper17]

There has been ample evidence that many of the things the league is doing with umpiring are driven by issues that are occurring at the community level. The approach to addressing these issues has not been for the league to invest in increasing the standard of community umpiring as a way of reducing umpire abuse (I'm not speculating with that comment, as a club participant in community footy at the administrative level, I know what we are and are not seeing in terms of community umpire training), rather, it's been to make is so that the umpires are completely untouchable, regardless of how good or bad they are. The umps are protected from feedback/criticism and there is no recourse for aggrieved parties to address perceived wrongs at the community level.

But this approach will not work and actually could make things worse because, generally speaking, resentment with no outlet does not just go away. It simmers.

I believe the only real way to fix it is to take the grey out of some of the rules and make things more black and white for the umps. Make the game easier to umpire. The amount of grey in the current rules allows observers to credibly disagree with many of the umpires rulings. This leads umps open to accusations of bias and/or incompetence and, whether we like to admit it or not, it also gives ample room for actual bias (umps are humans . . .humans are cheats by nature). Bias is probably less prevalent in the main league where umps are constantly being assessed and they would be jeopardizing their job if any pattern of actual bias was identified, but there are no such checks at the community level. Community umps are aware that there are no consequence to a poor or a biased performance.

Removing some of the grey will remove many avenues for decisions that can be credible disagreed with and will remove avenues for biased decisions. That will go a good way towards addressing the issue of abuse at the community level. It will never be completely resolved, people will always find ways do disagree with decisions (all sports), but the rules of our game are worse than most in terms of the level of grey.

Couldn't agree more. In practice this looks like:

1. Removal of prior opportunity from the rule book - every time a player takes possession, one of 3 things will happen. They'll either dispose legally, dispose illegally (free kick) or hold the ball (free kick). Ball getting knocked out in the tackle is a grey area that I can see both sides of, but again, put it in the rule book and pay it as illegal disposal or call it play on.

2. Last touch out of bounds. Straightforward. Works well in the SANFL according to mates in Adelaide.

3. Free kick against any player who attempts to play at the ball on the ground. Will tidy up and condense into one rule the current absolute minefield which includes diving on the football, dragging in the football, push in the back, high contact, contact below the knees, and there are probably others. If you attempt to take possession whilst you are not supported by your feet (or at least one foot), free kick against. Works brilliantly in Gaelic footy, and accordingly, there's a great example from a couple of years ago of Jimmy Madden instinctively doing exactly what would need to be coached. I think it was the Geelong or Richmond game at the Gabba in 2021. Went to ground, got back to his feet and THEN contested the ball. Would also make the game a much better spectacle and improve player safety.