Schoenmakers gets to have the final say

[Cerpin Taxt]

He'll be ok. It's unfortunate he has to play the key role from the start. Most good key defenders had someone to learn from, and if things aren't going their way on a particular day the coaching staff can make changes to prevent their confidence being shattered.

 

[i_need_a_pencil]

I think he did pretty well... gave Hawkins no space.

Hawkins is just too big, and is a great read of the drop of the ball. Nothing Shoenmakers could do for the majority of Hawkin's in-close chest marks.

 

[pavilion103]

lol-factor is off the charts

 

[Kim Hagdorn]

The guy is a massive liability, amazing that he even gets a game at one of the best sides in the competition.

 

[Plugger35]

The jury is still out on Schoenmakers.

Looks like he's improved but is still a long way short of being a good reliable key defender, even last night he looked suspect in some one on one battles and it wasn't exactly a high pressure game either.

I'd wait to see him perform well regularly in high pressure games and finals before I started singing his praises.

Schoenmakers didn't do much to convince the jury tonight that he's a good key defender.

Still a long way to go and I doubt if he will ever get there.

 

[bigrob]

Good ordinary player in an also-ran team.

 

[bombermick]

He's improved massively, but at 21 he doesn't look like putting on much more size. Huge men like Hawkins and Tippett will always worry him.

 

[Last Line Hero]

He may be something someday, but right now he remains the biggest liability in Hawthorn's line- up and has some gaping holes to fill in even the most basic elements of one on one defence. I find it utterly hilarious the degree of praise Hawthorn fans have afforded Shoenmakers as the season has progressed, blatantly choosing to either ignore or be blissfully unaware of the negligible degree of genuine development he has actually made. It reeks of similarity to St. Kilda fans in their opinions of Zac Dawson circa 2009/10. When thrown to the wolves tonight he looked no better than the bumbling mess Hawkins took apart in the finals last year. The only difference from then to now is Hawthorn's performance as a team. Fairly easy to look decent as a defender when your side is winning by 10 goals every week, the pressure is off, the intensity low, and you have an All- Australian calibre defender floating behind you to clean up your mistakes. Coincidently, the last time the Hawks didn't have there way this year Shoey conceded 7 to Jack Riewoldt. There is nothing more satisfying than seeing defenders of that ilk exposed when suddenly the rest of the side can't carry them.

 

[hk89]

Similar posts in this thread about Hawkins when they were roughly the same age:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-hawkins-thread.581911/

And that is on the Cat's own board, so is more positive than a main board thread would be.

I thought Shoenmakers was ok , despite the number of goals his opponent kicked. Got into the right spot most times, but just wasn't strong enough to subdue Hawkins. He will continue to get stronger over the next couple of years, and his decision making under pressure has already come on in leaps and bounds since this time last year. It is a pity he has to take the number #1 opposition big forward at the moment though. Hawkins was on song tonight and rarely looked like missing, which made the damage look worse than it might have been had Hawkins had a more typical night in terms of accuracy (Shoey did win some contests).

 

[yeee_haaaa!!!!!]

I just hope he's playing if the pies meet the hawks in the finals. Same for Stratton and Gibson . Surely right up there ad the most overrated players in the comp. people say the pies defenders are no good 1 on 1 - these 3 jokers are rubbish when isolated against a quality opponent

 

[Roy boys]

A good key forward should always beat a good key back with decent delivery. Rutten, Mcpharlin and the like have all had bags kicked on them this season have they not ?

 

[Last Line Hero]

Similar posts in this thread about Hawkins when they were roughly the same age:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-hawkins-thread.581911/

And that is on the Cat's own board, so is more positive than a main board thread would be.

I thought Shoenmakers was ok , despite the number of goals his opponent kicked. Got into the right spot most times, but just wasn't strong enough to subdue Hawkins. He will continue to get stronger over the next couple of years, and his decision making under pressure has already come on in leaps and bounds since this time last year. It is a pity he has to take the number #1 opposition big forward at the moment though. Hawkins was on song tonight and rarely looked like missing, which made the damage look worse than it might have been had Hawkins had a more typical night in terms of accuracy (Shoey did win some contests).

Rediculous comparison. Difference is Hawkins is a forward, and up until this season never regarded as our number one forward. Given our success over that period also, patience with him is a luxury we could afford. Shoenmakers is a defender and your number defender and every mistake he makes fast becomes a liability. If the Hawks have to and/or intend to wait another 4-5 years for him to 'arrive' as we had to with Hawkins then your backhalf will remain an achilles heel under pressure.

Shoenmakers was abysmal tonight. I am not entirely sure what game you were watching for you to afford him even any level of praise. Yes, he may have appeared to be in decent position at times throughout the night, but that may have had something to do with the fact it was largely a one-on-one, contested, long- kicking game. One thing I will say he did second to none was find a way to sacrifice seemingly decent body position and allow Hawkins comfortable marks.

 

[Roy boys]

He'll be ok. It's unfortunate he has to play the key role from the start. Most good key defenders had someone to learn from, and if things aren't going their way on a particular day the coaching staff can make changes to prevent their confidence being shattered.

well said mate and didn't he do the same to rutten last week ? who had to be moved in the first quarter ?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Similar posts in this thread about Hawkins when they were roughly the same age:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-hawkins-thread.581911/

And that is on the Cat's own board, so is more positive than a main board thread would be.

I thought Shoenmakers was ok , despite the number of goals his opponent kicked. Got into the right spot most times, but just wasn't strong enough to subdue Hawkins. He will continue to get stronger over the next couple of years, and his decision making under pressure has already come on in leaps and bounds since this time last year. It is a pity he has to take the number #1 opposition big forward at the moment though. Hawkins was on song tonight and rarely looked like missing, which made the damage look worse than it might have been had Hawkins had a more typical night in terms of accuracy (Shoey did win some contests).

That's a pretty sill comparison, hope you don't get carded for linking to team boards though.

Agree Schoenmakers didn't do too much wrong, there's not a defender in the comp that can contain Hawkins anymore. Rutten got pulled after 10 minutes, then subbed off, for example.

 

[Lach72]

I think he did pretty well... gave Hawkins no space.

Hawkins is just too big, and is a great read of the drop of the ball. Nothing Shoenmakers could do for the majority of Hawkin's in-close chest marks.

Yeah I thought he was alright too

 

[hk89]

Rediculous comparison. Difference is Hawkins is a forward, and up until this season never regarded as our number one forward. Given our success over that period also, patience with him is a luxury we could afford. Shoenmakers is a defender and your number defender and every mistake he makes fast becomes a liability. If the Hawks have to and/or intend to wait another 4-5 years for him to 'arrive' as we had to with Hawkins then your backhalf will remain an achilles heel under pressure.

You are confusing two issues, Shoenmakers as a player, and what his current development stage means to Hawthorn. It is perfectly valid to compare Shoenmakers with another key position player at the same age when looking at Shoenmakers as a player. You've highlighted exactly why he is marked so harshly. He's a developing KP player being played as the #1 defender, so people are judging him as a #1 KPD, rather than a work in progress. This is IMO unfair. Sure, talk about how having Shoey as our #1 KPD leaves us exposed in some situations, but also assess Shoey as what he actually is, a 21 year old developing KPD who is being asked to play each weak on the #1 KF.

Shoenmakers was abysmal tonight. I am not entirely sure what game you were watching for you to afford him even any level of praise.

He was outbodied by Hawkins, there is no question about it. Hawkins took 5 marks inside 50, probably most of them contested against Shoenmakers. Shoenmakers also saved some certain goals with some work that might not have been shown on TV, were you at the game?

One thing I will say he did second to none was find a way to sacrifice seemingly decent body position and allow Hawkins comfortable marks.

Three extra years in the Gym will do that for you (although tbh Hawkins was always a bit of a monster, and yet still played liked a spud till he was quite a bit older than Shoey - KP players are often like that).

I'm sure Hawthorn would prefer not to develop Shoey while he plays on the #1 forwards, but obviously they think he fits into the game plan better than other possible choices (such as Gilham, or moving Roughy back). He only got 6 disposals tonight, but he was our leader in disposal efficiency, and this is probably why Clarkson likes him in the backline, and is one of the areas he's been really good in this year. If you hadn't noticed, DE is pretty important in our current game plan. A game plan that won the last 3 quarters by nearly 50 points - a pity about that first quarter, and the last 3 minutes

I didn't see any reason to think Shoey is a shit player tonight. Just got beaten by a player that was too strong for him, and then kicked very straight for goal to make him pay for every mistake. Happens to the best defenders at times, and Shoey certainly isn't one of them yet.

 

[mcuzzy]

Schoenmakers isn't going to look like a gun when he's in his very early 20s, barely gone through puberty and playing a key role against a bloke 5cm taller than him and 11kg heavier and is also in red hot form

He'll develop, he has been shoved right into the deep end here at a young age

 

[VanBerlo=God]

Good ordinary player in an also-ran team.

Probably the best profiling of him so far. He's OK, not great, does his job, can muck it up pretty good, sometimes just doesn't even turn up.

The weakness the Hawks has is definitely in their defence. It helps when your mids shield the defence so well, but any decent team this season has done fairly well. I don't include Collingwood in that because even though they have 2 power forwards, they're both shit.

 

[Black Diamond]

It's tempting to have a crack at him, but right now Hawkins is a very, very good forward and would be hard for anybody stop. Every back has a bag kicked on them from time to time, and these will become less frequent as he matures.

 

[PieNSauce]

If the jury was out last week I have a feeling that somewhere in Melbourne this morning a surgeon is carefully extracting the gavel from the back of his head.

Edit: In late news, doctors have confirmed that what was thought to be a gavel, on closer inspection has turned out to be a tomahawk.

 

[boncer34]

Concedes 4 last week against a bloke playing his 3rd game back in a side that won by 16 goals. Follows it up by conceding the match winner tonight.

Yeah he's having the last say, pity for Hawks fans its a reminder he's a spud. No Gibson playing 3rd man up and he goes to shit.

 

[le dominateur]

Hopefully he plays another 10 years for the Hawks, that will make it 10 more years destroying the Hawks chances for a premiership.

 

[Budgey]

Hopefully he plays another 10 years for the Hawks, that will make it 10 more years destroying the Hawks chances for a premiership.

He has already directly cost the Hawks a GF appearance in his short career. And after last night's performance, we may look back and say he cost them another. Sysdney in Sydney, followed by Cats, then Adelaide in Adelaide would be a tough way to make a GF and had he kept his opponent to anything less than hawkin's highest score of the year, we would virtually be a lock to avoid that route. Not to mention his next examination under finals like pressure (esp. in the GF), to which he has never stood up before.

Peoplw say give him time, he'll be okay in a few years. Problem is that NOW is the time the Hawks are competing for flags. In a few years, Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Gibson etc will be gone and Buddy, roughy etc will be past their peak.

 

[hawkman]

Watching the replay now and he was actually pretty solid for the first 2 and a half quarters. He halved a number of contests with Hawkins. His problem seems to be that good forwards are able to get a hold of him late in games, which also affect peoples opinion of him. For all of Hawkins supposed dominance of him he only took 6 marks for the game

 

[Tulip]

That's a pretty sill comparison, hope you don't get carded for linking to team boards though.

Agree Schoenmakers didn't do too much wrong, there's not a defender in the comp that can contain Hawkins anymore. Rutten got pulled after 10 minutes, then subbed off, for example.

He kicked 1 on Frawley this year