St Kilda President Andrew Bassat tees off on the AFL draft system, specifically father/son and the Northern Academies

[Red Black and Blue]

He's spot on. NGA and Father son are mickey mouse rules for a non serious competition. Its a kin to permitting a few teams to use steroids.

 

[bergholt]

Didn't we finish 17th the year we got Naicos, I realise we'd traded our pick away to GWS but just in terms of being down the bottom it wasn't that much of a stretch for the second worst team to end up with a top 5 draft player.

And great as he's become, at the time he was considered behind Darcy and Horne-Francis by most recruiters. It's only with hindsight - us winning a premiership and Naicos developing to be even better than expected - that people call this out as being unfair.

Contemporaneous evidence:

Nick Daicos

central.rookieme.com

"Faced with arguably more expectation and attention that any other draft prospect in recent memory, the impressive 18-year-old has taken on each challenge with aplomb and is rightly considered one of the best two prospects nationwide."

"He was nothing short of dominant among his peers; consistently racking up game-high numbers in the NAB League or one-off representative showcases."

"Looking at pure numbers, Daicos' 2021 averages stack up against the likes of Matt Rowell and Sam Walsh, both of whom were undeniable number one picks out of the NAB League."

"While there will be plenty of conjecture over whether Daicos is worthy of a bid at pick one until his name is called out, it means little in the grand scheme of things. Collingwood has known for over a year that it had a top three talent on the horizon and planned accordingly, while stating it would commit to matching a bid at any pick."


Yes, you finished 17th, but because you planned for him to come along and traded the pick, at the very least it means you got double value from finishing that low.

Collingwood's had plenty of misses with fs picks too, but they're less interesting to talk about.

It's about tickets in the lottery. The more tickets you get, the more likely you are to win. Collingwood has had 6 father sons in the last 10 years, the Saints have had 1. That makes it more likely you'll get one who turns out to be good. In practice 3 of those 6 have been All-Australian, so it definitely looks unfair.

 

[SSSSSS]

Making excuses to feed the fan base.

How come Hawthorn is so fricken good all the time?

We've had some shite F&S for us, JPK the best but made his career elsewhere. Langford has a purple patch at the right time but nothing long term.

Dear looks like being the best of the lot as an 18 year old already.

We've also been shafted out of NGA this year. Should have had 2x probable first round selections this year in Moraes and Tauru but for whatever reason they've been stripped of NGA eligibility.

Saints got Owens for cheap. He was a gun junior.

 

[RoyBoy17]

 

[Philhawk]

The amount of non St Kilda supporters commenting and instead of discussing the issue are targeting the saints or Bassat are hilarious and highlights the issues even further.

He is not saying to get rid of father sons or academies.

He is saying pay a fair cost for the access.

Ashcroft is undoubtedly the best player in this draft. What would it cost Brisbane for a top 5 pick? Bailey? Would you still want him then?

Naicos for the pies. It would have cost them someone integral to their 23’ flag side.

The suns with 4 first round picks the other year. There is no way they would have landed equivalent values to bring them all in.

It’s provides equality all the way down the ladder.

Exactly. Self interest as per always is the sole thing that’ll prevent anyone from having a decent conversation.

It’s just so blindingly simple what needs to happen. Academy, father son, draft - make it fair for all.

 

[bergholt]

Of course not - but to suggest St Kilda's lack of success is due to their lack of academy or father sons is just a nonsense. You can win the premiership without them. Richmond and Hawthorn have won 6 of the last 12 premierships and neither (from memory) had a massive number of father son or academy players on their list.

Ross Lyon is saying that the AFL would be doing the right thing if the draft was compromised heavily due to Josh Battle leaving, but then Bassat is talking about the inequalities in the draft, I just don't think you can demand that a flawed system benefit you in one area, whilst demanding change in another.

One is an equalising measure (free agency compensation), the other is an unequalising measure (father-son). Not too hard to understand.

I don't mind the northern academies tbh. Getting more Qld and NSW talent into the AFL is a good thing. I do think though that eligibility could be tightened - if an academy player had an AFL playing father, or if they go to a Melbourne private school, it doesn't feel like they should still come with priority access.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Does he also have a problem with Stkilda being gifted top end draft picks year after year after year for being shit? Or is that the right kind of unfairness?

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Remove FA compo

Reckon he would shut up right quick

 

[bergholt]

Saints got Owens for cheap. He was a gun junior.

I think the academies outside NSW and Qld clubs should go, personally. But pretending Owens was a "gun" junior is only accurate if you buy the shit from the AFL media where everyone is a star. He was around top 30 quality and that's about where he ended up.

 

[jakson68]

The whole F/S debate is stupid.
Apart from GWS and GC, every other team has access to F/S, so I am unsure what Bassat is complaining about.

The issue I have is with double ups, F/S and Northern Academies.
GWS and GC, should have academies with the same points scoring as F/S picks.
Brisbane and Sydney receive the same F/S discount but their academy player discounts should be changed.

 

[Nvent]

Did you not see the players you landed last year with junk picks?

Yes I think its a joke.

 

[bergholt]

Does he also have a problem with Stkilda being gifted top end draft picks year after year after year for being shit? Or is that the right kind of unfairness?

There's a difference between equalisation and unequalisation. If you don't understand that then I'm not sure your comments are going to add to this thread.

 

[bergholt]

Apart from GWS and GC, every other team has access to F/S, so I am unsure what Bassat is complaining about.

Not equal access:

Here's the number of 100 gamers each club has who were born between 1965 and 1980 (roughly the age of current father-son fathers):

35: Melbourne
34: Essendon
33: Brisbane
32: West Coast
31:
30: Collingwood
29: Hawthorn, North Melbourne
28: Geelong
27: Adelaide
26: Carlton, Western Bulldogs
25: Sydney
24: Richmond
23: St Kilda
22:
21: Port Adelaide
20:
19:
18:
17:
16:
15:
14: Fremantle


Doesn't seem super even that Melbourne have 35 tickets in the lottery while the Saints have 23 (not to mention Freo having 14). That just exposes you more to the random vagaries of reproduction. Lockett, Loewe, Burke had daughters, for instance.

It's fundamentally never going to be even. If we care about equalisation then we can't have it. If you don't care about equalisation, that's fine, just say that.

 

[Nvent]

Does he also have a problem with Stkilda being gifted top end draft picks year after year after year for being shit? Or is that the right kind of unfairness?

Isn't that the rule though for all clubs?

 

[bergholt]

Remove FA compo

Reckon he would shut up right quick

What's FA compo got to do with it? It's another equalisation measure. If you don't like equalisation then just say it.

 

[SSSSSS]

I think the academies outside NSW and Qld clubs should go, personally. But pretending Owens was a "gun" junior is only accurate if you buy the shit from the AFL media where everyone is a star. He was around top 30 quality and that's about where he ended up.

I saw plenty of draft watchers (both on Bigfooty and in the media) having him in the 10-20 mark on their phantoms throughout the year, in fact I remember a few Saints posters worried that if he went first round they wouldn't be able to match. A lot of academy guys slip a little bit further down the rankings ala Gulden.

 

[Sully111]

The problem most here seem to have is you need to look at the issue on it's own merits.

Regardless of which club I support... I'll say it again... having the premier getting the best player in the draft for peanuts is ridiculous. It's an infinitely flawed system that needs to be fixed.

Either scrap it, or the club needs to pay a fair price.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Isn't that the rule though for all clubs?

Yes. So is father son.

And would you look at that, 2 of Stkilda's best young players were academy picks.

It's just a bit rich for the club with probably the best access to the draft over the last 25 years to start complaining about fairness.

 

[caloschwaby]

Semantically, fairness can refer either to the process or the outcome. Clearly I was talking about the outcome.

But also, because of historical differences in the number of 100 gamers (which I posted earlier), the process is also biased in particular ways which are not perfectly fair.

And that's why I'm saying that way of looking at it is wrong because there is no way to manipulate the conditions that exist to create F/S selections*. Players just play their careers > reach 100 games for a club > have kids at some point > hopefully get out 1-2 males > try and get them to be interested in footy > get them to a point where they're playing a high enough level of footy > then, and only then after all that does F/S even come into play.

The outcome being uneven is unfortunately completely irrelevant when there are no forces at play manipulating the conditions to create these outcomes. These are just organic things, you can't decide any of those preconditions for the fathers/sons and they take years to play out.

And it doesn't just happen to St Kilda - doesn't look likely either of Nathan Buckley's sons make it to the club, which is a shame for how big of a player he was but that's just life when they choose not to pursue footy. Nothing we can do except focus on developing the F/S there is a likelihood of taking.

*The only way I can think of, and not sure what other clubs do regarding this, but Collingwood run events exclusively for Collingwood-playing fathers to bring their young kids to for a run around and hopefully get them on the path to playing footy (and hope they are gifted!). This is open for all clubs to operate without restriction so there is effectively no manipulation, just maximising yield which is probably what you're talking about with the "tickets in the lottery" analogy. There is no unfairness whatsoever in that.

 

[Bald]

One is an equalising measure (free agency compensation), the other is an unequalising measure (father-son). Not too hard to understand.

That’s a convenient way of trying to differentiate what really is just an allowance of a club to draft a player before another would otherwise be able to.

 

[Philhawk]

Saints being pretty uniquely disadvantaged to not get Cam McKenzie as an academy kid for the brief period the AFL changed, then reverted, the rules is also pretty funny/terrible.

 

[WillHayward]

We've had some shite F&S for us, JPK the best but made his career elsewhere. Langford has a purple patch at the right time but nothing long term.

Dear looks like being the best of the lot as an 18 year old already.

We've also been shafted out of NGA this year. Should have had 2x probable first round selections this year in Moraes and Tauru but for whatever reason they've been stripped of NGA eligibility.

Saints got Owens for cheap. He was a gun junior.

And Windhager who looks promising

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

That speech was a bit incoherent.

But I agree that the father son rule is a joke. I have still never heard a good argument for it to exist.

Its one of those concession to nostalgia and the old days of club loyalty.
It probably has no reason to exist in terms of "fairness", but it is at least luck of the draw rather than actually rigged like much else is.

 

[bergholt]

I saw plenty of draft watchers (both on Bigfooty and in the media) having him in the 10-20 mark on their phantoms throughout the year, in fact I remember a few Saints posters worried that if he went first round they wouldn't be able to match. A lot of academy guys slip a little bit further down the rankings ala Gulden.

Mitch Owens Draft Profile

central.rookieme.com

"One of a couple of St Kilda Next Generation Academy (NGA) prospects pushing for top 30 contention is Mitch Owens, a rising talent out of the Sandringham Dragons."

But yeah, you're right they often slip a bit because they're not open access. Another reason the current system doesn't work.

 

[SSSSSS]

Mitch Owens Draft Profile

central.rookieme.com

"One of a couple of St Kilda Next Generation Academy (NGA) prospects pushing for top 30 contention is Mitch Owens, a rising talent out of the Sandringham Dragons."

But yeah, you're right they often slip a bit because they're not open access. Another reason the current system doesn't work.

I mean even on that same page they projected Mitch as a 15-30 pick, which was pretty in line with alot of watchers at the 10-20 mark (10 probably a stretch but sometimes watchers have their favourites).

It's not an egregious steal like Daicos or the Ashcroft's but the Saints still got very good value from an academy pick.