St Kilda's Heart of Darkness?

[Lance Uppercut]

"Culture" is one of those Bigfooty memes that has taken on a life of it's own, so evolved that it's more likely to be used in an ironic sense than anything else in more recent times. After all, it's a pretty nebulous term to describe the inner workings of a football club, and most of us would be loathe to think that our club does in fact have a culture problem.

But it's hard to deny that sometimes, in reality, that's exactly what we have. I'm sure most West Coast supporters would acknowledge that their club had a culture problem in the middle of last decade, a problem that nearly tore the club apart. Rightly, Eagles supporters can now claim that they have turned that completely around, and now boast a strong club culture that can take in supposed "bad boys" like Jack Darling, from whom there can be nothing bad said since he started his AFL career.

Likewise, Carlton had a culture that tolerated, perhaps even encouraged the behaviours that ultimately led to Fevola's downfall. They also have turned things around, and it's hard to see anything like that being tolerated under their new coach.

But then we have St Kilda. This is a serious question: what do we make of the "culture" of St Kilda? This weekend brings news that Sam Fisher is a genuine chance of being ejected from the leadership group. As noted in Fairfax media today:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/fisher-on-outer-at-saints-20121123-29yyt.html

Fisher's controversial behaviour has began to antagonise team-mates, concerned at his influential role among the Saints players.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/fisher-on-outer-at-saints-20121123-29yyt.html

Coming on the heels of the sacking of Jason Gram, there would seem to be, from the outside looking in, at least some kind of issue amongst St Kilda and it's senior players. After all, even Saints supporters can't deny the last few years have been a litany of episodes that, taken on their own, might be explained away; but that viewed as a whole certainly seem to indicate a pattern.

Just what has Fisher been up to? From Caroline Wilson:

Fisher's place in the leadership group is under threat - and should be if half the stories about his behaviour are true.

Fisher is 30 years old. Whilst players are entitled to let off some steam on their holidays, surely you would think at that age wild partying might take a back seat over setting an example for younger team-mates?

The question has to be asked, is the consistent and on-going "episodes" at St Kilda a problem? The apparent inability of the Saints to get through an off-season without some scandal or other is really quite bizarre.

I am particularly interested in the opinions of Saints fans on this. Without being flippant, do you think your club has a "culture" problem, or is it all a media beat-up? Please, no cheap shots.

What is going on with St Kilda?

 

[DerpWerls]

So what you're asking is... Where are St Kilda at?

 

[Lance Uppercut]

So what you're asking is... Where are St Kilda at?

just trying to get to the bottom of a strange pattern. I'm sure St Kilda have strong leaders. But do they need to be stronger?

 

[Noobz0r]

The above examples of gram and Fisher could be Watters setting a different standard?

From the outside looking in, the sacking of gram and the dropping from the leadership group of Fisher seem like positive steps towards a clean culture IMO.

On another note, hasn't this thread been done a fair few times?

 

[DerpWerls]

just trying to get to the bottom of a strange pattern. I'm sure St Kilda have strong leaders. But do they need to be stronger?

I agree it does seem to have been one thing after another for some time now.
Why? No idea!

 

[Bluelegs]

"Something, something, something, Michael Hurley bashed a cabbie."

 

[Lance Uppercut]

The above examples of gram and Fisher could be Watters setting a different standard?

From the outside looking in, the sacking of gram and the dropping from the leadership group of Fisher seem like positive steps towards a clean culture IMO.

On another note, hasn't this thread been done a fair few times?

hopefully it is setting a standard. Doesn't change the fact a purported leader has been getting up to who knows what in the off-season, someone you'd hope would be acting as more of a guiding light, no?

 

[CF]

wasn't it Sam Fisher who started all the St Kilda school girl crap?

 

[Blues_Man]

They certainly have had "issues" for some time now...maybe they have just been a victim of circumstances ? Or perhaps they just don't they have the Right people in the right areas to lead the way...only those involved with the inner circles of the Club would have any idea of where the problem lies .

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Time for a new Captain. Way too much bad shit has happened on Riewoldt's watch.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

without wanting to be salacious, does anybody know what the rumours of Fisher's behaviour are? Is it a beat-up or an issue of concern?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Felt for Saints fans when I saw the title, but the Fisher thing is new and to date everybody is discussing it objectively and without malice. Not too many excuses for 30 year old players to be drawing negative attention to themselves like this. Scotland at Carlton is not helping himself, although his is all personal and he is a valuable mentor and popular with teammates. Not good if, and I stress if, your teammates are over you.

 

[LordLucifer]

The Saints have always had a "party-boy" attitude going all the way back to the days of Plugger & Trevor Barker etc cut loose on Saturday nights at their social club at the old Moorabbin ground.

The level of professionalism has been questioned at times even though they have had some good people in important positions, they just haven't had enough of them IMO.

If you don't have people in decision-making roles who are cut from the right cloth, then they are only going to bring in likeminded people to further add to the problem.

"birds of a feather flock together"

 

[Saint Shags]

without wanting to be salacious, does anybody know what the rumours of Fisher's behaviour are? Is it a beat-up or an issue of concern?

So you start the thread and then decide to ask what this behaviour entails?


As a supporter I would love to know the allegations. All we have from Caro at the moment are allegations that he has been doing wrong but doesn't give specifics.

Could it be related to Gram?

 

[THRILLHO]

Nothing I hate more than newspapers "alluding" to rumours. Happened with Martin a few weeks back and a heap of people jump on Bigfooty and nod knowingly at each other and drop pointed hints, while the rest of us just stare at the screen confused wondering what is actually happening.

Now it's happening again with Fisher. "Fisher's place in the leadership group is under threat - and should be if half the stories about his behaviour are true." Well, what is it? Isn't that your job?

Either report something and enlighten your readership. Or shut the hell up. You're a newspaper, not the receptionist at the water fountain gossiping with whomever passes. Journalists are just drip-fed news and forced to follow the bread-crumb trail from clubs because they're so afraid of jeopardising their "sources" within the club and having to actually beat the footpath and do some actual investigative work.

 

[Rabid]

Age Editor: What the F%^& is going on here we haven't done a job on St Kilda for at least 2 weeks?
Caro: But nothing is happening - we milked the Gram one; they haven't scammed the draft; tanked, and none of their players have beaten up taxi drivers.
Editor: Who Fu%$#%^ cares just make it one up like you normally do.
Caro: OK who's turn is it - hmm must be Sam Fisher's go.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

So you start the thread and then decide to ask what this behaviour entails?


As a supporter I would love to know the allegations. All we have from Caro at the moment are allegations that he has been doing wrong but doesn't give specifics.

Could it be related to Gram?

I'm not pretending to know what he's done. But if he's upset his team-mates and fellow leaders it can't be great.

As a Saints fan, does it concern you that a leader is allegedly behaving poorly, or do you think it is just scuttle-butt?

 

[Tas]

It is hard to really say anything without being borderline defamatory, but there have been a lot of bizarre incidents over recent years involving multiple players. I am all for team bonding, but I think perhaps it is a problem with too many bachelors, I think most of our boys like to settle down early, start a family pretty young and that keeps you fairly busy, well grounded and out of trouble.

But, the ones who do not settle down can be problematic.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Nothing I hate more than newspapers "alluding" to rumours. Happened with Martin a few weeks back and a heap of people jump on Bigfooty and nod knowingly at each other and drop pointed hints, while the rest of us just stare at the screen confused wondering what is actually happening.

Now it's happening again with Fisher. "Fisher's place in the leadership group is under threat - and should be if half the stories about his behaviour are true." Well, what is it? Isn't that your job?

Either report something and enlighten your readership. Or shut the hell up. You're a newspaper, not the receptionist at the water fountain gossiping with whomever passes. Journalists are just drip-fed news and forced to follow the bread-crumb trail from clubs because they're so afraid of jeopardising their "sources" within the club and having to actually beat the footpath and do some actual investigative work.

so you'd prefer them just to not say anything? I don't really get that personally. In this case, his place in the leadership place appears in jeopardy. Why? Because of some poor behaviour. But is it fair for a reporter to actually report that stuff? Or should they just not print the story? Really, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If the rumours weren't alluded to, everyone on here would be banging on about it being a beat-up.

 

[Saint Shags]

I'm not pretending to know what he's done. But if he's upset his team-mates and fellow leaders it can't be great.

As a Saints fan, does it concern you that a leader is allegedly behaving poorly, or do you think it is just scuttle-butt?

You start a thread alluding to that fantastic word culture. But claim that it must not be great if Caro has written about it although you have no idea what he has or hasn't done.

I would rather actually hear some allegations first before i make my mind up on anything.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You start a thread alluding to that fantastic word culture. But claim that it must not be great if Caro has written about it although you have no idea what he has or hasn't done.

I would rather actually hear some allegations first before i make my mind up on anything.

I agree "culture" is a loaded term around these parts, and rightly so. But that's kind of the point. Is it relevant here? I'd like to hear some allegations too, but I suspect we won't, and probably don't deserve to. But if it turns out that Fisher is dumped from the leadership group then there would appear to be some fire beneath the smoke, wouldn't you think?

And, further to that, have we had a pre-season in the last half decade without a St Kilda scandal? One, sure. Two, unlucky. But repeatedly? I'd be concerned as a supporter I think. But is that fair of an outsider to say that?

 

[KeSter]

It's simple really the relocation to Seaford has exposed the entire playing group to Frankstonite, a highly culturally corrosive substance which precludes good decision making and good coffee.

 

[THRILLHO]

Wilson states that there is no suggestion that Fisher is facing any legal issues so there should be no recriminations from writing about them in the article.

If you think it's fair for a reporter to allude to negative, consequential behaviour, then it's most definitely fair to actually mention it, as alluding leads people to think wildly about rumours and they can overreach in their estimations.

Wilson could quite easily have written, "It is believed that Fisher has not been fully committed to his preparations for the upcoming 2013 preseason and has, at times, broken team rules by staying out late, partying at several of Melbourne's popular boutique nightclubs, overindulging in alcohol on his break, and putting himself in a situation of danger be being intoxicated in a public place. While St. Kilda management have officially denied any serious problems with Fisher, some St. Kilda players are concerned that a member of the leadership group not acting with the professionalism demanded of such a role may have an adverse effect on St. Kilda's younger players and new draftees."

She hasn't written it because she doesn't want to be locked out from emails from the club and in such a case, would actually have to leave her ivory tower on Collins St and get down to the clubs home bases to do her work.

So again, if it's important enough to be alluded to by gossip-mongerers, then it's important enough to be reported on factually.

edit: Lance Uppercut

 

[Saint Shags]

I agree "culture" is a loaded term around these parts, and rightly so. But that's kind of the point. Is it relevant here? I'd like to hear some allegations too, but I suspect we won't, and probably don't deserve to. But if it turns out that Fisher is dumped from the leadership group then there would appear to be some fire beneath the smoke, wouldn't you think?

And, further to that, have we had a pre-season in the last half decade without a St Kilda scandal? One, sure. Two, unlucky. But repeatedly? I'd be concerned as a supporter I think. But is that fair of an outsider to say that?

What was the scandal last preseason? I can't remember if there was one?

 

[Fred]

I'm struggling to see the connection between a messy personal relationship break-up and a football club's culture.