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Leon said:
Musashi the man.
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Movie Star Wars III
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Musashi the man.
Thrawn I am obligated to respond to your five points as well, so I should do that. You've bene critical of me for not responding directly to certain quotes so I will, okay.
So? Where does this prove that Palaptine deliberately lost to Mace?
No he didn't. He was at full stretch. That is a silly argument anyway, as all move sword fights through history have both combatants getting the upper hand. It's not as if Palaptine had a sword at Windu's throat. Palpatine was fighting to kill. The fight is a straight up fight. The frame up surrounding the fight is clear, but the saber battle is master vs. master and Mace gets the upper hand. Obviously, Palpatine's life must be at stake in order for Anakin to respond the way he does. People just have such a fixation with the Palpatine character, the one they know from ROTJ, that they assume that if Palpatine is ever in a vulnerable position, it must be because he allowed it to happen. They believe this and will go on believing it no matter what the sources are telling them. Frustratingly, you are one of these people.
What does any of this above quote have to do about proving Palpatine lost on purpose? It doesn't prove anything.
Yoda and Windu are portrayed as equals in the prequel trilogy, both of them occupying identical positions on the council and having the same amount of dialogue in the council. Yoda, like Mace, can match it with Palpatine but Yoda can't fight the Emperor plus a million clone troopers. He has to flee. But what any of that has to do with Mace legitmately beating Palpatine is beyond me.
Palpatine used his Sith lightning earlier, but it was blocked by Mace. Mace can't very well block it when he has had his arm choped off can he! When Palpatine was beaten in the corner, he put on an acting performance out of desperation. This is what we see, and there is no evidence to suggest it isn't true. He was a beaten man and needed Anakin to save him at that point. Anakin would have turned to the dark side anyway - his very presence in the room is proof of that.
"Hard to see the dark side is" - Yoda, The Phantom Menace
"The dark side of the force, has clouded their vision, my friend" - Count Dooku, Attack of the Clones
Thrawn said:
So? Where does this prove that Palaptine deliberately lost to Mace?
Thrawn said:
No he didn't. He was at full stretch. That is a silly argument anyway, as all move sword fights through history have both combatants getting the upper hand. It's not as if Palaptine had a sword at Windu's throat. Palpatine was fighting to kill. The fight is a straight up fight. The frame up surrounding the fight is clear, but the saber battle is master vs. master and Mace gets the upper hand. Obviously, Palpatine's life must be at stake in order for Anakin to respond the way he does. People just have such a fixation with the Palpatine character, the one they know from ROTJ, that they assume that if Palpatine is ever in a vulnerable position, it must be because he allowed it to happen. They believe this and will go on believing it no matter what the sources are telling them. Frustratingly, you are one of these people.
Thrawn said:
What does any of this above quote have to do about proving Palpatine lost on purpose? It doesn't prove anything.
Thrawn said:
Yoda and Windu are portrayed as equals in the prequel trilogy, both of them occupying identical positions on the council and having the same amount of dialogue in the council. Yoda, like Mace, can match it with Palpatine but Yoda can't fight the Emperor plus a million clone troopers. He has to flee. But what any of that has to do with Mace legitmately beating Palpatine is beyond me.
Thrawn said:
Palpatine used his Sith lightning earlier, but it was blocked by Mace. Mace can't very well block it when he has had his arm choped off can he! When Palpatine was beaten in the corner, he put on an acting performance out of desperation. This is what we see, and there is no evidence to suggest it isn't true. He was a beaten man and needed Anakin to save him at that point. Anakin would have turned to the dark side anyway - his very presence in the room is proof of that.
Thrawn said:
"Hard to see the dark side is" - Yoda, The Phantom Menace
"The dark side of the force, has clouded their vision, my friend" - Count Dooku, Attack of the Clones
Doesn’t have to prove it dan, only has to indicate it was possible.Dan26 said:
You are the only one arguing that your argument is absolutely right and anyone who disagrees with you is flat out wrong.
Pretty much everyone has opinions either way but do not insist that only their opinion is valid.
You are the only one who has to provide iron clad facts for your opinion to be correct.
Otherwise you are flat out wrong, wrong, wrong...
Did you hear that dan? Wrong.
Go on you can say it.
Weevil,
My opinion is my opinion, Obviously I'm going to think it is right because it is my view. Trust what you see on screen in the film. Why look for hidden meanings, and why look for things that aren't there? Don't make this an obsession with me (as if that concerns me), make it about the topic.
My opinion is my opinion, Obviously I'm going to think it is right because it is my view. Trust what you see on screen in the film. Why look for hidden meanings, and why look for things that aren't there? Don't make this an obsession with me (as if that concerns me), make it about the topic.
Interesting read.
From what we can draw from the on screen action, you would have to say Mace was going to defeat Palpatine had Anakin not come in to play.
There is no doubting that Mace Windu is fantastic with the lightsaber and I think most SHOULD agree that:
Mace=Yoda=Palpatine
The facts are that Palpatine was not the 'greatest' jedi/sith ever and is not indestructable. I think that Thrawn is assuming that because of what we have seen in ROTJ and such. There is no doubting that Palpatine is a master of manipulating and mind games, however that does not make him indestructable.
Palpatine has Anakin in his hands before Mace confronts him, only for the fact that he holds the only key to saving Padme's life. Anakin has decided (as someone else said) that Padme is his #1 priority. This was Anakin's choice and although he may have been influenced by Palpatine, he has ultimatley made the choice.
Thus when he finds Mace and Palpatine fighting, his #1 priority is keeping Palpatine alive as this will save Padme. He is still feeling alliances towards the jedi and that is why he questions what he has done but ultimatley he must save Padme which means his true aliances are towards Palpatine.
At the point Anakin enters the fray, Mace has the upper hand and had Anakin not entered, we must assume that Mace Windu would have defeated Palpatine. Because:
1) There are numerous references throughout the series of Mace Windu being an excellent fighter on par with Yoda even (not directly although strongly implied).
2) Mace Windu is not killed by Palpatine when 3 other jedi (on the council) are. He couldn't have killed Mace then if he wanted to because he could not do it. He couldn't kill Mace or Yoda by himself. He needed Anakin. Therfore he could not "tank it" because he hadn't had it won already. It was a 50 - 50 battle most of the way, then Mace held the upper hand untill Anakin entered the fight.
3) Anakin tipped the scales in Palpatines favour. Palpatine needed Anakin, there is no doubting that. But he was always backing on Anakin coming to his rescue. This doenst mean he was "beating" Mace, he wasn't. Mace was winning but Palpatine held the trump card. Mace would have killed him, but he didnt.
What I am trying to say is that Anakin already needed Palpatine to save Padme. Windu was beating Palpatine hands down and would have killed him but Anakin came. Anakin came because he wanted to. Not because Palpatine knew he would. Anakin's choice to help Palpatine was what ultimatley led to his downfall. He did this because of his love for Padme.
Finally-
Anakin>Palpatine.
If anyone disagrees, I will happily state why I think otherwise.
From what we can draw from the on screen action, you would have to say Mace was going to defeat Palpatine had Anakin not come in to play.
There is no doubting that Mace Windu is fantastic with the lightsaber and I think most SHOULD agree that:
Mace=Yoda=Palpatine
The facts are that Palpatine was not the 'greatest' jedi/sith ever and is not indestructable. I think that Thrawn is assuming that because of what we have seen in ROTJ and such. There is no doubting that Palpatine is a master of manipulating and mind games, however that does not make him indestructable.
Palpatine has Anakin in his hands before Mace confronts him, only for the fact that he holds the only key to saving Padme's life. Anakin has decided (as someone else said) that Padme is his #1 priority. This was Anakin's choice and although he may have been influenced by Palpatine, he has ultimatley made the choice.
Thus when he finds Mace and Palpatine fighting, his #1 priority is keeping Palpatine alive as this will save Padme. He is still feeling alliances towards the jedi and that is why he questions what he has done but ultimatley he must save Padme which means his true aliances are towards Palpatine.
At the point Anakin enters the fray, Mace has the upper hand and had Anakin not entered, we must assume that Mace Windu would have defeated Palpatine. Because:
1) There are numerous references throughout the series of Mace Windu being an excellent fighter on par with Yoda even (not directly although strongly implied).
2) Mace Windu is not killed by Palpatine when 3 other jedi (on the council) are. He couldn't have killed Mace then if he wanted to because he could not do it. He couldn't kill Mace or Yoda by himself. He needed Anakin. Therfore he could not "tank it" because he hadn't had it won already. It was a 50 - 50 battle most of the way, then Mace held the upper hand untill Anakin entered the fight.
3) Anakin tipped the scales in Palpatines favour. Palpatine needed Anakin, there is no doubting that. But he was always backing on Anakin coming to his rescue. This doenst mean he was "beating" Mace, he wasn't. Mace was winning but Palpatine held the trump card. Mace would have killed him, but he didnt.
What I am trying to say is that Anakin already needed Palpatine to save Padme. Windu was beating Palpatine hands down and would have killed him but Anakin came. Anakin came because he wanted to. Not because Palpatine knew he would. Anakin's choice to help Palpatine was what ultimatley led to his downfall. He did this because of his love for Padme.
Finally-
Anakin>Palpatine.
If anyone disagrees, I will happily state why I think otherwise.
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=207450&start=01410
Read that some very good points for and against.
Read that some very good points for and against.
Dan26 said:
That is so soft dan.
You never put it forward as your opinion, you clearly write as if it is fact.
You stomp all over this thread not showing the slightest bit of respect for the other side’s point of view.
You have been arrogant, contemptuous dismissive, and totally unwilling to even contemplate any point of view that does not fit within your own rigid mantra.
...And you think you can absolve yourself of all that with a single robotic sentence.
I see a film where one of the characters is a phenomenal manipulator. He rises from obscurity to create a massive galaxy wide war, destroy the republic and the Jedi order. Institutions that have been in place for generations.
I see a scene in one of the films where Obi-Wan clearly suggests that Yoda is the greatest Jedi Swordsman...Don’t try to read anything else into that scene dan, just listen to what the film is telling you.
I see a fight between Mace and Palpatine, at the end of this fight it becomes obvious to everyone watching that Palpatine was acting. You want to draw on some elaborate justifications to say that he was acting sometimes but not others, that is your choice. Given Palpatine’s often displayed ability to orchestrate far, far more complicated situations than this, plus his ability to dispose of three other Jedi masters within seconds the simplest interpretation would be that he was acting the whole time.
The film seems to confirm this shortly later when you see a fight between Yoda and Palpatine. There is simply no comparison in the speed, intensity and ferocity of the two battles. The fight with Yoda seems simply to be in a whole other league. How did Palpatine suddenly get so good?
The film also clearly shows Palpatine winning the fight with Yoda. Yoda is on the defensive for the majority of the time. The movie never shows any clone troopers or any other influences. The fight ends with Palpatine laughing at the top, and Yoda down the bottom scurrying away out through a small tunnel, without his sabre and cape.
Watch the film dan. Trust what you see.
I (and quite clearly many others) find some of your behaviour to be offensive dan. You keep on acting like a child and I’ll keep on calling you on it.
Show some respect for people who don’t share your opinions and I’ll show some respect to you.
weevil said:
Might have something to do with Samuel Jackson not using a stunt double. Although it does point out an issue with the movie. A lot of the fight scenes were really inconsistent. How can Obi-Wan look pathetic against Dooku, yet stay neck and neck with Anakin in the fastest duel of the whole series? ....
Best not to focus on the minor details and just take note of who actually wins the duel.
weevil said:
Weevil,
I'll try to calm down, and explain it easily.
I've stated that Mace had Palaptine beaten. At the very least Palpatine could have staved off defeat with his Sith lightning for a bit longer, but he certainly did NOT deliberately lose. Trust the film! Trust what you see! We know Mace is among the most powerful jedi, and capble of fighting a Sith Lord. Why assumne that what you see isn't true? TRUST WHAT YOU SEE. Trust what the film shows us. There is no evidence to suggest Palaptine deliberately loses. No dialogue, nothing. The action and physicality of the fight all point to a genuine fight and a genuine stand-off at the end. The absence of any explanation that Palpatine "deliberately loses" or "drops his saber" or "toys with Windu" or "stalls for time" or ANY of these theories within the context of movie or novel source material should to put things in the right context for you, weevil.
You can't invent something out of thin air that goes counter to all documentation and then argue it is there, when there are no real clues to support the theory.
Mace had him beaten end of story. TRUST THE FILM!! All we see from Palpatine is venom and hatred. We see no evidence of Palpatine deliberately losing. We also all know that Anakin will do ANYTHING for his wife. If Palpatine assures him that wiping out the jedi at the temple is the only way to be strong enough to save Padme, Anakin will do it. Palps doesn't need to deliberately lose to Mace for Anakin to make this choice. Even after Anakin strikes Mace he still hasn't killed anybody yet. He still says, "What have I done?" so it's not like he magically became evil. He would still have gone on the temple massacre regardless. He only needed a reason to "justify" it. That's all he needed. And 4 dead jedi on the floor before he entered the room (which Palpatine would have claimed was treason) would have been enough. It is not in Palaptine's character to palce himself in compromising positions. He's a behind the scenes kind of guy.
Trust the film. Trust what you see. You see a full blooded, full-on fight where Windu legitimately disarms Palpatine. That is not an act, and you can see it is not an act. There is no evidence it was an act. Palpatine wants to kill Windu.
When Mace knocked the lightsabre out of Palptine's hand you can see it was geniunely real, and Palpatine didn't lose it on purpose. If Palpatine was going to deliberately lose, why make it "look" as though he was trying? After all, Anakin wasn't in the room yet, so who cares what Mace sees? Why not just give up and laugh in Mace's face as he "deliberately" gives up, and out-positions himself in the corner and waits for Anakin? He could be laughing in Mace's face as he lies in the corner before Anakin arrives! What we see instead is Palpatine fighting with anger and venom and hatred before Anakin is there. He is not acting! He wants Windu dead! Trust what you see. There is no act there. He only started acting after he was beaten in the corner. Before that it was all anger, venom and hatred. And like I said, if the fight was an act, why not laugh at Mace and lie on the ground and wait for Anakin? Palpatine instead shows genuine hatred and anger. No proof at all that he deliberately loses. Why can't you just trust what you see? Mace had him beaten in the corner. Legitimately. That is what we are shown. There is no proof, or any real evidence at all that he deliberately out-positioned himself on purpose. Forget all that stuff about the choregography of the fight and how fast and furious the Yoda fight is, and all that. Irrelevant. That's all just movie-making action and excitement. Look for the facial expressions and the venom and hatred in the eyes and face of the charcters (In particular Palpatine.) He is legitimately disarmed by Windu, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
That should clear everything up. I respect your opinion but I totlaly disagree with it, and all the on-screen evidence backs up what I am saying. I believe, weevil, that you are looking for things that simply aren't there. You're over-analysing, when what we see on screen, is how it is, and there is no genuine evidence to suggest otherwise.
Anyhow I'm off the watch the Denton program. Spielberg is the guest tonight, so it should be interesting.
Agree with what Dan is saying. Paplatine wasn't throwing it although he probably hoped that Anakin was coming as he had put alot of faith+time into getting Anakin to become his apprentice. Palpatine was genuinley worried and he was at the mercy of Windu, if not for Anakin entering he would've been killed. All we assume that was precocienved is him hoping that Anakin comes to his aide- if he got into trouble.
The main thing at the end of the day though, is that Anakin came and helped Palpy kill Mace- Mace was defeated in the end by Palpatine and Anakin Combined.
The main thing at the end of the day though, is that Anakin came and helped Palpy kill Mace- Mace was defeated in the end by Palpatine and Anakin Combined.
I can't believe that this convo about the Palpatine fight is still going on?
Wasn't there more interesting things in the movie?
eg what was that lizard obi was riding around and why? He could barely see where he was going his head was bouncing around everywhere.
Gaso
Wasn't there more interesting things in the movie?
eg what was that lizard obi was riding around and why? He could barely see where he was going his head was bouncing around everywhere.
Gaso
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Yes, apparently so. I wonder why???Gasometer said:
Do we know yet whether he was 'faking it' or not?
I tend to agree with Dan on this one.
I tend to agree with Dan on this one.
NSWCROW
Make me an Admin!
Anakin Skywalker at the end of ep 3 = All kinds of F##ked up !!!!!!!!!
its a bit silly when obi wan is a 30 year old man in revenge of the sith and 16 years later in a new hope hes an 80 year old man
also doesnt make sense in a new hope when he says he doesnt seen to remember owning a droid yet he spent heaps of time with r2d2
also doesnt make sense in a new hope when he says he doesnt seen to remember owning a droid yet he spent heaps of time with r2d2
NSWCROW
Make me an Admin!
Stress ????????
ManWithNoName
TheBrownDog
38 in Episode III, 58 in Episode IV.MagpieScouser said:
And he was bull****ting about not owning a droid.
Smell The Glove
Cancelled
Can someone please tell me how they manage to build half a Death Star so quickly at the end of Ep 3 and yet its not yet 'fully operational' by the time of Ep IV?
TuskenRaider
Club Legend
There may have been quite some time passed from when the twins were born to that scene at the end of Ep 3.whippersnipper said:
Otherwise I imagine there were some supply blockages and the Intergalactic Space Station Workers Union (or ISSW) went on strike as the Empire were forcing their wages down by bringing cheap Jawa labour in from Tatooine.
Mr Eagle
Bird-brain
TuskenRaider said:
And a lot of sub-contractors probably didn't want the work because it was too political...
TuskenRaider
Club Legend
Yep. There was a lot of work on offer in Alderaan at the time and knowing they were sympathetic to the Rebels, they didn't want to blow their contracts there. They probably wished they stayed on at the Death Star. At least until it was finished anyway.Mr Eagle said:
