Movie Star Wars III

[Mr Crow!]

The only semi-piece of evidence that Anakin was stronger than Sidious is when he claimed himself to be better than him. Although you're forgetting, Anakin thought he was better than everyone.

Arrogance is an inward feeling and typically associated with the dark side. Arrogance is what got Anakin beating. Arrogance is what killed Darth Mual. And IMO arrogance is what killed Dooku.

If I had to rate the Jedi/sith for saber fighting alone, it would look like this:

Mace Windu
Darth Sidious
Yoda
Anakin Skywalker
(slightly better than)
Count Dooku
Darth Mual
Obi-won
Qui-Gon

How would you rate Luke Skywalker?

 

[weevil]

The only semi-piece of evidence that Anakin was stronger than Sidious is when he claimed himself to be better than him. Although you're forgetting, Anakin thought he was better than everyone.

Arrogance is an inward feeling and typically associated with the dark side. Arrogance is what got Anakin beating. Arrogance is what killed Darth Mual. And IMO arrogance is what killed Dooku.

If I had to rate the Jedi/sith for saber fighting alone, it would look like this:

Mace Windu
Darth Sidious
Yoda
Anakin Skywalker
(slightly better than)
Count Dooku
Darth Mual
Obi-won
Qui-Gon

You gotta be very careful with them rankin’s. Look what Collingwood did to West Coast the other week...

 

[Funkalicous]

How would you rate Luke Skywalker?

That's difficult.

By the time Luke fully grew into a jedi, the rest were all gone. His only adversary was Darth Vader who was 3 quarters machine. He did beat him quite easily though. The force was strong with Luke, but unlike the heros of the latter trilogy, he only had a few years to fulfil his destiny and as such he didn't have a lot of time for saber practicing. So on that list, he would be somewhere on the bottom.

 

[Thrawn]

Yes he was acting, but i think Windu would have killed Palpatine if Anakin hadnt interfered. Because if you recall, in AOTC, Anakin told padme that he thought Obi-Wan was as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda.

That quote doesn't prove much, aside from Anakin implying that Windu is powerful and Yoda is wise. Which is all he says basically; no indication form it at all that he is actually suggesting Windu to be the more powerful. As vague as it is, it isn't solid enough.

That said, as far as Jedis go, I don't think you can top Yoda in terms of power. He is universially regarded as the most powerful of Jedi at that time.

So on that list, he would be somewhere on the bottom.

If you take the novels into consideration, later on Luke is much higher on that list.

 

[manureid]

If you take the novels into consideration, later on Luke is much higher on that list.

Correct. In fact, he would probably go on to be one of THE most powerful Jedi.

 

[Dan26]

Actually Dan seems like a control freak who can’t tolerate it if anyone else doesn’t agree with him.

Dan has a history of not being able to let go. Just tells everyone else his opinion is fact over and over again. The longer it goes on the more fantastic his justifications become.

This probably true. I may have some character flaws, but we are not talking about that - we are taking about the movie, and I'm sorry if I seem a bit over-the-top, but for such an important scene (the most important scene in all 6 movies, really) I think it is vital that people understand it.

 

[Dan26]

I will not back away from my stance nor let some fool claim I'm confused. Are you trying to make it look like that you "know it all" and I am one who has no idea what I am talking about? What crap Dan, you're better than that.

Thrawn please.

1.) Anakin already knew Palpatine was a Sith upon entering the room

2.) Anakin would have already been expecting for Palpatine to be defending himself if he was being attacked by the Jedi.

3.) Anakin had already made his decision, the scene before, to use Palpatine's dark side knowledge to save his wife. Palpatine didn't need to deliberately lose for Anakin to turn.

4.) There were already 3 dead Jedi on the floor of the office when Anakin entered (obviously the work of Palpatine.) It's not like Palpatine was trying to show how innocent he was when Anakin entered! There was 3 dead Jedi in the room for God's sake! Palpatine started acting when Anakin entered, out of desperation, because he was a beaten man.

5.) Anakin did not need to strike down Mace to turn to the dark side. Where is the evidence that he "needed" to do this to turn? Anakin had already made the decsion to save Padme, and what was happenng to Mace was largely irrelevant.

6.) After Mace was killed Palpatine says to Anakin to wipe out the Jedi, and kill the sepratists etc etc, "First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme." Anakin didn't need to kill Mace as part of some grand plan. Palpatine convinves Anakin, that upon killing the Jedi at the temple, he will become strong with the dark side, and because of that, will be able to save Padme

7.) Why would Palpatine deliberately put himself ina losing position, when Anakin was going to turn anyway?

8.) We know Mace Windu is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and according to Lucas himself, capable of fighting a Sith Lord. Mace and Yoda are portrayed as equals, both occupying simliar positions of authority on the council etc. Obviously Mace is capable of winning. And he does.

9.) Palpatine has sown the seeds of Anakin's turn, but ultimately the decision is Anakin's and Palpatine isn't going to deliberately endanger his own life on a risk unless he has to. And he didn't have to! Why put himself in danger, when Anakin wasn't in the room at the time? He didn't know Anakin was going to show up at that exact moment. He has an overall scheme of ruling the galaxy, but nobody can plan specific details.

10.) If Palpatine were capable of killing Mace, he would have done so. Anakin's outcome would still be the same. Imagine if Anakin entered, and all four Jedi were dead. Palpatine would say, correctly, that the jedi had committed treason and that he had to defend himself and he had to kill them to save his own life (which, funnily enough, is true!) Anakin still needed Palpy's dark side knoweldge to save Padme, and according to Palpatine himself, once Anakin kills the Jedi "...only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme." The temple massacre still would have happened. What do you suppose would have happened had Palpy beaten Mace? Are you suggesting Anakin would shun his wife and not bother about the dark side knowledge which he is convinced will save her?

Mace had Palpatine beat and no other conclusion can be reached. Is there any real evidence at all, Thrawn to suggest Palpatine lost on purpsoe? Any at all?

 

[Thewlis Dish]

It's pretty simple really - Darth Vader wins on the away goals rule, and Yoda shouldn't be able to defend his Champions League crown because he only finished 5th over 38 games.

 

[Funkalicous]

3.) Anakin had already made his decision, the scene before, to use Palpatine's dark side knowledge to save his wife. Palpatine didn't need to deliberately lose for Anakin to turn.

7.) Why would Palpatine deliberately put himself ina losing position, when Anakin was going to turn anyway?

I'm not one to overanalyse a very simple scene, but surely these two points are enough to convince even the greatest of fanboys.

Why else would Anakin go to Palpatine's chamber if not for his dark side knowledge? Coffee?

 

[weevil]

This probably true. I may have some character flaws, but we are not talking about that - we are taking about the movie, and I'm sorry if I seem a bit over-the-top, but for such an important scene (the most important scene in all 6 movies, really) I think it is vital that people understand it.

Well, I’m glad you are acknowledging this.

But then in the next sentence you turn around and presume that your opinion is fact and you are actually doing everyone who disagrees with you a service by showing them the error of their ways.

There are plenty of valid points in the other direction that have been made that you have totally ignored. And there are plenty of points you have made that have been completely plausibly explained, but you continue to repeet them over and over again.

You continue to ignore all of these and insist that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

I don’t really have anything against you dan, but it seems impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you sometimes. It’s like talking to a wall.

 

[weevil]

Originally Posted by Dan26
3.) Anakin had already made his decision, the scene before, to use Palpatine's dark side knowledge to save his wife. Palpatine didn't need to deliberately lose for Anakin to turn.

Come off it, there is no way that scene is supposed to indicate that that is the point Anakin makes his decision. He is still clearly conflicted as sees Mace and Palps fight, in exactly the same way he is conflicted when he sees Palps zap Luke in ROTJ. One of the key points of the film is that you see Anakin in virtually the identical position in both films, but he makes the right decision the second time.

7.) Why would Palpatine deliberately put himself ina losing position, when Anakin was going to turn anyway?

As has been covered many, many, many times. He was foxing, he was clearly in very little danger. Exactly as he was in very little danger from Luke on DS2 when he tried to get Luke to change sides. It is the whole point that there are massive parallels between these two scenes. Virtually the exact same tactic, pretending to be vulnerable to lure a young Jedi.

I'm not one to overanalyse a very simple scene, but surely these two points are enough to convince even the greatest of fanboys.

Do you think you could be any more smug? How about you try rasing some points that haven’t been covered before?

Why else would Anakin go to Palpatine's chamber if not for his dark side knowledge? Coffee?

Exactly because Palps wanted him to be there. Exactly in the same way he wanted Anakin to return all the way from the outer rim. Exactly as he wanted Anakin to kill Count D so as to clear the way for his ascent.

 

[Sexiano Ronaldo]

It's pretty simple really - Darth Vader wins on the away goals rule, and Yoda shouldn't be able to defend his Champions League crown because he only finished 5th over 38 games.

GOLD!

 

[Sexiano Ronaldo]

Actually Dan seems like a control freak who can’t tolerate it if anyone else doesn’t agree with him.

Dan has a history of not being able to let go. Just tells everyone else his opinion is fact over and over again. The longer it goes on the more fantastic his justifications become.

But then in the next sentence you turn around and presume that your opinion is fact and you are actually doing everyone who disagrees with you a service by showing them the error of their ways.

There are plenty of valid points in the other direction that have been made that you have totally ignored. And there are plenty of points you have made that have been completely plausibly explained, but you continue to repeet them over and over again.

You continue to ignore all of these and insist that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

I don’t really have anything against you dan, but it seems impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you sometimes. It’s like talking to a wall.

100% spot on you are.

 

[Thrawn]

1.) Anakin already knew Palpatine was a Sith upon entering the room

And?

2.) Anakin would have already been expecting for Palpatine to be defending himself if he was being attacked by the Jedi.

And?

3.) Anakin had already made his decision, the scene before, to use Palpatine's dark side knowledge to save his wife.

Wrong. He was clearly in two minds at the time he entered the room, If this was true, why did Anakin turn him in? And why did he regret his decision for one moment? Had he made his decision. he wouldn't of had any qualms of what he had done, what path he had taken.

Palpatine didn't need to deliberately lose for Anakin to turn.

Not entirely, but it was one of the factors. Palpatine had to show Anakin that the Jedi were tratiors to actually justify his actions against them afterwards, and to finally convince Anakin of not only joining him, but to make him turn against the Jedi.

However he DID have to be in that position to show that the Jedi were tratiors, and to make some excuse for the senate as to why the Jedi need to be hunted down. It is all relative Dan.

4.) There were already 3 dead Jedi on the floor of the office when Anakin entered (obviously the work of Palpatine.) It's not like Palpatine was trying to show how innocent he was when Anakin entered! There was 3 dead Jedi in the room for God's sake! Palpatine started acting when Anakin entered, out of desperation, because he was a beaten man.

No, he acted to finally convince Anakin to turn. Clearly a Jedi bearing down at his throat unarmed is a great way to actually ensure that he would turn, to erase any dobuts of sticking with the Jedi (and actually convincing Anakin that they are against the Republic and fighting for themselves).

5.) Anakin did not need to strike down Mace to turn to the dark side. Where is the evidence that he "needed" to do this to turn?

No, I didn't even make that point Dan. However, if you strike down a jedi master and help a sith lord, that is self explainatory.

Anakin had already made the decsion to save Padme,

But he didn't make the decision prior to entering the room (turning to his side). You could see it on his face when he entered the room. And you could also see a hint of regret after what he had done, something which would NOT have been had he already made up his mind.

Anakin didn't need to kill Mace as part of some grand plan. Palpatine convinves Anakin, that upon killing the Jedi at the temple, he will become strong with the dark side, and because of that, will be able to save Padme

How does this debunk the theory that Palpy was tanking his fight? Is this even linked to your argument? The Jedi were all killed because they were a threat to his power, not to make Anakin "become" strong in the dark side.

7.) Why would Palpatine deliberately put himself ina losing position, when Anakin was going to turn anyway?

How do you know he was going to turn anyway? This has been addressed already, amongst other points.

8.) We know Mace Windu is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and according to Lucas himself, capable of fighting a Sith Lord. Mace and Yoda are portrayed as equals, both occupying simliar positions of authority on the council etc. Obviously Mace is capable of winning. And he does.

Portrayed as equals you say? According to what we've seen with their respective powers and their influence, I don't think so. Yoda is considered as the most powerful jedi and force wielder, and according to the novel when fighting Sidious, "he just didn't have it".

9.) Palpatine has sown the seeds of Anakin's turn, but ultimately the decision is Anakin's and Palpatine isn't going to deliberately endanger his own life on a risk unless he has to.

He had to. His entire plan was basically risky. Not only did he want Anakin to turn, but he also wanted him to believe the Jedi were no good and were tratiors to the Republic. And what better way to show that with Windu bearing down on him, unarmed, in an "assassination attempt".

He didn't know Anakin was going to show up at that exact moment. He has an overall scheme of ruling the galaxy, but nobody can plan specific details.

I think he DID know Dan. Palpatine sensed that Anakin was in danger HALFWAY across the galaxy after Yoda ran away from him. Why isn't it plausible for you to think that he can actually sense his pupil a kilometer away? After all, Jedi are known to sense other Jedi - the perfect example is when Obi-Wan states that he can sense Dooku on The Invisible Hand.

10.) If Palpatine were capable of killing Mace, he would have done so. Anakin's outcome would still be the same.

No it wouldn't Dan, Anakin was still in two minds, remember? Besides, as I already pointed out, he needed Mace to complete his plan. To show that the Jedi are tratiors and want power for themselves.

Imagine if Anakin entered, and all four Jedi were dead. Palpatine would say, correctly, that the jedi had committed treason and that he had to defend himself and he had to kill them to save his own life (which, funnily enough, is true!) Anakin still needed Palpy's dark side knoweldge to save Padme, and according to Palpatine himself, once Anakin kills the Jedi "...only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme." The temple massacre still would have happened.

This is all hypothetical, so it really doesn't rebute the points I made earlier about Palpatine "tanking" his fight. And I seriously doubt Anakin would believe him, considering he was still choosing sides at the time. Palaptine needed strong, rock solid evidence of the Jedi being tratiors, to finally convince Anakin.

What do you suppose would have happened had Palpy beaten Mace? Are you suggesting Anakin would shun his wife and not bother about the dark side knowledge which he is convinced will save her?

You don't get it Dan. To FINALLY ensure Anakin be turned, and to convince him (and the senate) that the Jedi were tratiors and wanted power for themselves and that they are no good, he required Mace to achieve those aims.

Mace had Palpatine beat and no other conclusion can be reached.

The height of arrogance. "I am right and whatever you say or do doesn't matter" - get stuffed Dan. While you use hypotheticals, I try to use events from the films to back up my points, as I have done on this thread the whole time while you ignore them. Yet aagin, get stuffed.

Is there any real evidence at all, Thrawn to suggest Palpatine lost on purpsoe? Any at all?

Yes, there was, if you actually bothered to read this thread:

- He killed three Jedi MASTERS in a short amount of time, of whom two were on the council.

- He had the perfect opportunity to kill Windu there and then, as Bresh pointed out, but he didn't.

- Palpatine's lightning actually forced Yoda's lightsabre out of his hand. And you can't go cliaming that it doesn't matter because Windu is better at the lightsabre (because there is no evidence to suggest so), after all Obi-Wan says to Anakin “If you practiced your saber techniques as much as your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda”.

- I don't care what you think, but Yoda is universially considered a more powerful Jedi than Windu. Yoda came with the intention of killing Palpatine, and he failed - because, according to the novel: "he just didn't have it".

- The way in which Palpatine rises up from defeat and hurls lightning with such ferocity that Windu is flung 100m from the window to his death. Earlier on he wasn't even trying to put it up a notch; it was all on for show.

- None of the Jedi, not even Yoda and Windu, could detect Palpatine's power or him being a force user. They did not even suspect him until ROTS

Now, with all the above considered, it is NOT out of the realms of possibility that Palpatine played Windu like a fiddle for Anakin to make a FINAL decision (and if you think he did prior to that, you are kidding yourself). You are too stubborn to accept that versions other than your own can work (and hey, your POV is plausible - why isn't the other side?). He wated Anakin to see the tretchary of the Jedi, he wanted Anakin to turn against them, and what better way to finally convince him AND at the same time make him turn against the JEdi and make the excuse for the senate?

It is pretty straight forward Dan, you can't refute on-screen events just because they don't fit YOUR view of events.

 

[Thrawn]

I'm not one to overanalyse a very simple scene, but surely these two points are enough to convince even the greatest of fanboys.

What crap. First of all, those points being addressed, are flawed. And second of all, the few who are on the "tanking" side are not fanboys, making that remark irrelevant. I'm basing my thoughts on what I've seen in the movie.

Let's have a look at these so called points that would convince even the greatest of fanboys:

3.) Anakin had already made his decision, the scene before, to use Palpatine's dark side knowledge to save his wife. Palpatine didn't need to deliberately lose for Anakin to turn.

Wrong! Anakin was still at two minds when he entered the room, had he made a decision he would've straight away helped Palpatine. But hang on a sec! He was hesistant. He was actually making the choice there and then. He didn't take any action for quite a while, and instead chose to hear them out. And to finally turn this point into dust, after he made his choice, he had regret what he had done. Now, surely if he had made a decision much earlier was was fully convinced that it was the right choice he wouldn't have had any regrets at all?

7.) Why would Palpatine deliberately put himself ina losing position, when Anakin was going to turn anyway?

What Dan doesn't seem to realise is that this was not only to finally turn Anakin, but to actually convince him that the Jedi are the enemy, that they are the enemy of the Republic and want power for themselves.

Why else would Anakin go to Palpatine's chamber if not for his dark side knowledge? Coffee?

Watch the movie. Anakin wanted to help Windu but he told him to stay out of it.

 

[celtic_pride]

Maybe GL will explain the scene in more detail on the DVD commentary (once it comes out that is)

 

[Thrawn]

I think that was a straight out lie from you Dan to state that Anakin had already made a decision. As soon as he enters the room, his actions and hesistation does NOT look like that he made a decision. He was listening to both sides, you could see it in his face and his emotions that right there he was making his final choice, it was not one-sided. Even his regret afterwards indicates that he wasn't 100% decisive.

Tsk tsk. Next time you lie Dan, please make it more subtle.

 

[Thrawn]

Maybe GL will explain the scene in more detail on the DVD commentary (once it comes out that is)

Gee, I hope so, just to break Dan's ego. Some pearlers:

What you don't understand Thrawn is:

I'm amazed that a huge Star Wars fan such as yourself would be gullible and naive enough to think Palpatine would deliberatly lose

You can't possibly argue against anything I have written here.

It just shows that my obviously correct viewpoint gets under your skin.

You know this. You know it deep down, and surely your personal pride can admit it.

The last post I wrote before this one sums it all up perfectly, and if you read it again (I advise it) you will see there is nothing to argue.

This one is the best, it's as if he excludes himself from this:

Nothing annoys me more than personal pride stopping a person from accepting the obvious.

Dan, you didn't answer my question: And it also seems that the majority on this thread, and perhaps 50% of the people on SW boards share similar views. Are we all naive and gulliable Dan? Are we all wrong, and you right? Give me a friggin' break.

 

[Funkalicous]

Wrong! Anakin was still at two minds when he entered the room, had he made a decision he would've straight away helped Palpatine. But hang on a sec! He was hesistant. He was actually making the choice there and then. He didn't take any action for quite a while, and instead chose to hear them out. And to finally turn this point into dust, after he made his choice, he had regret what he had done. Now, surely if he had made a decision much earlier was was fully convinced that it was the right choice he wouldn't have had any regrets at all?

Perhaps this is where the true arguement lies. If Anakin was always going to side with Sidious then his 'tanking' act would have been unnecessary. I imagine you would agree with that conclusion if point 3 was proven correct.

Just to see where your thinking lies, I'll draw a timeline for the events as I interpreted them. Let me know where you disagree...

Sidious reveals himself to Anakin: Upto this point, Anakin has experienced fear about losing Padme. Instead of finding a way to cope with his distress, he's been looking for a way to save Padme. Sidious appears to be the only person simpathetic to his cause. As such, Sidious' influence has begun to rub off on Anakin. Anakin is losing trust in the Jedi counsil and has started to look for answers outside of his Jedi training.

When Sidious reveals himself, one could argue that Anakin reacts differently to what Sidious has anticipated. The Jedi inside Anakin expresses himself and naturally sees Sidious as a threat. At this point you could conclude that Anakin's loyalties lie with the Jedi. Sidious still had his major trump-card though, specifically Padme's doom. Anakin, knowing this, didn't want to do anything to rash, but knew he couldn't betray the Jedi.

Anakin tells Mace about Sidious: At this stage Anakin is thinking with his head and not his heart. He does what he believes is right and dobbs Sidious in. Mace, who now trusts Anakin, orders him to stay put and let himself handle it. If Anakin was completely light-side, he would have done what Mace asked of him by staying put.

Anakin reflects on his dicision: Standing by himself, he begins to think about the consequence of his dicision. The only thing he is debating is whether it's worth losing Padme over. By running off to Palpatine's chamber he is effectively disobeying Mace's instructions and has put Padme's health first, with all else being second. The only way he believes he can stop Padme from dieing, is if he can stop Sidious from dieing. That is the only reason I can see why Anakin would go to Palpatine's chamber.

Anakin sees Mace and Sidious facing off: By now Anakin has set his priorities. 1) Padme 2) Sidious must live 3) His loyalty to the Jedi. He knew full well that when Mace set off to confront Sidious, that Sidious could die and therefore so would Padme. When Mace had Sidious beat, Anakin was pleading to let him live. That's not so much hesitation as it is looking for an alternative. As soon as Anakin saw that Mace was going to finish him, he didn't hesitate for a second. He took off his arm in a flash. He did what he had to do. Only he was hoping there was another way.

 

[Dan26]

It's an interesting argument, but in the end you have to trust the movie and what we see on screen. Everything else is speculatory. Trust the film Thrawn.

Wrong! Anakin was still at two minds when he entered the room

This is not true. The key is the scene beforehand. Anakin stares across Coruscant to Padme's apartment with a tear in his eye. He then decides to rush to Palaptine's quarters. It is at that moment that he makes his decision. He needs Palpatine alive to use his dark side knowledge to save Padme.

had he made a decision he would've straight away helped Palpatine. But hang on a sec! He was hesistant. He was actually making the choice there and then.

Anakin was still hopeful of convincing Mace to arrest Palpatine and not kill him. This was have suited Anakin because he could still have learned Palaptine's dark side knowledge. As for Anakin's decision to learn Palpatines dark side knowledge to save Padme, he had already commited to that, hence his arrival in the room. Palpatine didn't need to deliberatley lose for Anakin to makew this choice Thrawn. Anakin is in the room, because he had made the choice.

And to finally turn this point into dust, after he made his choice, he had regret what he had done. Now, surely if he had made a decision much earlier was was fully convinced that it was the right choice he wouldn't have had any regrets at all?

Anakin knows what he has done is wrong. "What have I done," he says upon strking Mace. But in his mind he has no choice, because he MUST save his wife, and Palpatine is his only avenue to do this. Palpatine does not need to lose on purpose for Anakin to make this choice to save his wife and turn to the dark side. Mace had Palpatine beaten.

Tell me what you think would have happened Thrawn, if Anakin arrived to find all 4 Jedi dead? Would he have decided not to seek the dark side knowledge? he would still seek the knowledge, for in his mind, it is the only way to save his wife. That's why it is obvious that Mace had Palpatine beaten.

What Dan doesn't seem to realise is that this was not only to finally turn Anakin, but to actually convince him that the Jedi are the enemy, that they are the enemy of the Republic and want power for themselves.

Oh come on. It doesn't convinve him that the Jedi are the enemy any more than having 4 dead jedi on the floor would. That's why it's obvious that Mace had Palpy beaten. If Palpatine killed all four and Anakin entered, Palpatine would have told Anakin that the Jedi committed treason and tried to kill him and he had to defend himself. All of which is true.

What you fail to see is that when Anakin struck Mace, he wasn't at that point convinced the jedi were traitors. He was pleading with Mace to arrest Palpatine. He struck Mace, not because he thought Mace was a traitor, but because he thought that he would lose Palpatine's dark side knowledge. Anakin convinces himself that the Jedi are traitors to justify his murderous rampage, which he is only doing, to be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme - something he would have done, regardless of the fate of Mace Windu. "First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme."




Of course the most important factor of all is the fact that the scene must have a huge amount of drama because it is the key scene in all six films. A huge amount has to be at stake. If Palpatine was always going to win there is no drama. The reality is there is huge drama, because Palaptine is beaten, and Anakin's choice will decide the fate of the galaxy. What a terrible scene it is, if there is no drama and Palpatine is always going to win. Mace had him beaten, that is what we see on screen. In addition to it being what we see, there is a mountain of evidence making it both sensible and obvious.

There is not a single source which you can use to support the idea that Sidious just "throws the fight" or "allows Mace to win".

No quotes, no references - nothing.

All the terminology, all the phraseology, all the key words - they all point to the same trend. Mace was "winning" - Mace "forces" - the "beaten" sith lord - exaggerated "weakness" (you cannot exaggerate something that does not exist in some form).

The very absence of any explanation that Palpatine "throws the fight" or "drops his saber" or "toys with Mace" or "stalls for time" or ANY of these theories within the context of all the reliable source material ought to put things in the proper context for you.

You cannot invent something out of thin air that goes counter to all documentation about the subject and then argue it is all important subtext... yet there are no real clues to support the theory, and according to you, still it MUST be true - especially when all official sources have said the exact opposite. All sources point to a real stand-off. It's the perfect circumstance for Anakin's choice. Anakin must be in greater control than both Mace or Palpatine to really make this scene poignant. His decision must tip the balance, not Palpatine's. It is not Palpatine's film, it is Anakin's

 

[Thewlis Dish]

This is more amusing than the movie itself.

 

[weevil]

You wave your hands in front of dan’s face but there is not even the slightest bit of recognition.

You knock repeatedly and forcefully on his skull but there is just this dull hollow sound.

He is obsessed, he is a zombie. I don’t think he actually even realises that other people are talking. He just stares blankly into space and robotically types the same mantra into his keyboard over and over again.

It is like watching a train wreck.

“you have to trust the movie and what we see on screen”

Okay dan, is that -the- rule? You put it out there; do you have the guts to stand behind it?

Or are you going to try the “I must always be right about everything and therefore I make up different rules as I go along” tactic?

What’s it going to be dan? You going to scurry away and pretend you didn’t read this?

 

[Sexiano Ronaldo]

This is more amusing than the movie itself.

Who'da thunk it, Dan bitchslapped on a topic he's actually supposed to know something about.

 

[Leon]

It's pretty simple really - Darth Vader wins on the away goals rule, and Yoda shouldn't be able to defend his Champions League crown because he only finished 5th over 38 games.

Added to this, Anakin's 2000 premiership season was really just a one-season wonder.

I for one dont reckon Anakin's 2000 premiership side would get any where near Obi-Wan's dynasty of premiership sides in 2001-02-03. A suggestion to the contrary would most likely come from a die-hard Anakin supporter who, although desperately claiming to be unbiased, seems unwilling to let go and accept that in the minds of the majority, Obi-Wan 2001-02-03 are the best of all time.

 

[weevil]

Added to this, Anakin's 2000 premiership season was really just a one-season wonder.

I for one dont reckon Anakin's 2000 premiership side would get any where near Obi-Wan's dynasty of premiership sides in 2001-02-03. A suggestion to the contrary would most likely come from a die-hard Anakin supporter who, although desperately claiming to be unbiased, seems unwilling to let go and accept that in the minds of the majority, Obi-Wan 2001-02-03 are the best of all time.

Work of the highest calibre.

Gold star!