Preview State of the list 2013

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Great post and will help distract me from the pain of not being part of GF week. a couple of humble opinions
  • Glad to see the support for Tom Young.
  • Disagree that we necessarily need a small pacy tagger. Ling wasn't speedy but relied on his smarts. We just need someone who can concentrate. The idea of Maxy as a tagger is interesting. Fitness-permitting he would've been ideal against Josh Kennedy (and others such as Jobe Watson). But agree that we definitely need a defensive mindset.
  • Agree with others questioning Ben S. Strikes me as strange that someone who puts a premium on skills such as Bucks placed so much faith in Benny. Then again, am happy to be proven wrong on this one as the kid has heart.
  • also want to start using Swanny as a semi permanent forward who goes in for the centre bounces. I can see us getting 30 goals out of him this way - we clearly need another goal option.
  • need an amended game plan to combat the Hawks and even North. - sides who move the ball at speed. Our game plan has been good enough to get us into the top 4 but it worries me that lower sides like North and Carlton were able to beat us with pace and spread. Even in 2010, sides could easily kick goals against us when they unlocked the press (which at that stage was more out of luck than planning)
  • Speaking of game plans, we need a range of them rather than one single one (eg boundary line/fwd press approach of MM). Sometimes we need a press, other times we freewheel but we need to be able to switch during games. I can see Bucks is trying to to that which I appreciate rather than the stubborn approach by Mick
Looking forward to 2013
 
Thing I think they see in Sinclair is that he is one of the 3 quickest player over 20 meters at the club, the others being Mooney and Swan (Toovey is top 5 too). So the poster saying he is "average" pace is just straight up wrong, he is fast, but he hasn't used it to his advantage too much this year. Think he turned a corner mid way through the year and was just starting to reward the faith when he did an ankle or something and never got back to the level for the rest of the year, it's a shame, but frankly he is just one of a number of VFL players who will be looking to push into the senior side next year, and his experience this year will help him, but I don't think he is any more of a "lock" than Josh Thomas, Seedsman, Williams (who I like more than the same poster who called him "average") or some new draftee's, but we can hope for improvement, not every player announces themselves in thier first year or so, some take development.

Few other interesting facts:

Beams will finish this year having had more disposals than any other player in the league in 2012.
Beams will finish the year behind only Josh Kennedy for total supercoach points.
Beams will finish the year with more dreamteam points than any player (Kennedy second).
Beams will finish the year with more uncontested posession than any other player.
Beams will finish the year with more effective disposals than any other player BY MORE THAN 50 TOUCHES!!!

All this from a guy who finished SECOND ON OUR GOALKICKING FOR THE YEAR!!! with 28 goals. fmd.

This guy has had an AMAZING year. to get more footy than anyone in the comp as a genuine mid AND kick nearly 30 goals in a year is OUTSTANDING.

by the way, he finished 2nd in contested footy behind Pendles for the club.
equal first for clearances with Swan.
3rd for tackles behind Pendles and Blair.
first for inside 50's.
and as I said second for total goals behind Cloke.

He is also a signed up Pie for the next 2 years.

He should win the Copeland comfortably and he should poll strongly in Brownlow. Amazing year.
 
Hva sher a said:
Great post and will help distract me from the pain of not being part of GF week. a couple of humble opinions
  • Glad to see the support for Tom Young.
  • Disagree that we necessarily need a small pacy tagger. Ling wasn't speedy but relied on his smarts. We just need someone who can concentrate. The idea of Maxy as a tagger is interesting. Fitness-permitting he would've been ideal against Josh Kennedy (and others such as Jobe Watson). But agree that we definitely need a defensive mindset.
  • Agree with others questioning Ben S. Strikes me as strange that someone who puts a premium on skills such as Bucks placed so much faith in Benny. Then again, am happy to be proven wrong on this one as the kid has heart.
  • also want to start using Swanny as a semi permanent forward who goes in for the centre bounces. I can see us getting 30 goals out of him this way - we clearly need another goal option.
  • need an amended game plan to combat the Hawks and even North. - sides who move the ball at speed. Our game plan has been good enough to get us into the top 4 but it worries me that lower sides like North and Carlton were able to beat us with pace and spread. Even in 2010, sides could easily kick goals against us when they unlocked the press (which at that stage was more out of luck than planning)
  • Speaking of game plans, we need a range of them rather than one single one (eg boundary line/fwd press approach of MM). Sometimes we need a press, other times we freewheel but we need to be able to switch during games. I can see Bucks is trying to to that which I appreciate rather than the stubborn approach by Mick
Looking forward to 2013
Click to expand...
What concerned me this season was weaker sides dominating long parts of the game. There were also games where we lost the disposal and i50 count.
 

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joefootylover said:
Thing I think they see in Sinclair is that he is one of the 3 quickest player over 20 meters at the club, the others being Mooney and Swan (Toovey is top 5 too). So the poster saying he is "average" pace is just straight up wrong, he is fast, but he hasn't used it to his advantage too much this year. Think he turned a corner mid way through the year and was just starting to reward the faith when he did an ankle or something and never got back to the level for the rest of the year, it's a shame, but frankly he is just one of a number of VFL players who will be looking to push into the senior side next year, and his experience this year will help him, but I don't think he is any more of a "lock" than Josh Thomas, Seedsman, Williams (who I like more than the same poster who called him "average") or some new draftee's, but we can hope for improvement, not every player announces themselves in thier first year or so, some take development.

Few other interesting facts:

Beams will finish this year having had more disposals than any other player in the league in 2012.
Beams will finish the year behind only Josh Kennedy for total supercoach points.
Beams will finish the year with more dreamteam points than any player (Kennedy second).
Beams will finish the year with more uncontested posession than any other player.
Beams will finish the year with more effective disposals than any other player BY MORE THAN 50 TOUCHES!!!

All this from a guy who finished SECOND ON OUR GOALKICKING FOR THE YEAR!!! with 28 goals. fmd.

This guy has had an AMAZING year. to get more footy than anyone in the comp as a genuine mid AND kick nearly 30 goals in a year is OUTSTANDING.

by the way, he finished 2nd in contested footy behind Pendles for the club.
equal first for clearances with Swan.
3rd for tackles behind Pendles and Blair.
first for inside 50's.
and as I said second for total goals behind Cloke.

He is also a signed up Pie for the next 2 years.

He should win the Copeland comfortably and he should poll strongly in Brownlow. Amazing year.
Click to expand...
Joe,superb OP and thread mate and also your post on beams this morning,I also feel we have some improvement in us internally but it is great to read it in such detail.

Ps Joe I think beams,y sign for 3 yrs which is even better and really looking forward to next season.
 
Talk of Swan as playing in the forward line is something that I like expecially with Beams coming of age. If Giles comes to Magpieland, than we are flag favourites. Unlikely we can get both, but if we could get Giles and Caddy, who both apparently want to come to Collingwood, well that than would be huge. We'd have Ball and Keefe back. IMO Keefe was better than N. Brown but than Keefe will be coming back from a knee, and Borwn was coming back from a knee this year, so that spot is about 50/50, but i'm going to be different and give it to Keefe but really I rate him ahead cause he's taller and can pinch hit in the ruck.


What would we have to give up for Giles and Caddy? Wellers, Goldy and our first round pick. We're probably miles ahead on those trades, and we'd probably have to give up Harry'O instead of Goldy, but anyways, here is my starting 22.

Toovey Keefe Shaw
O'Brien Reid Maxwell
Thomas Ball Sidebottom
Swan Dawes Fasolo
Krakouer Cloke Blair
Jolly Pendlebury Beams
Giles Caddy Paine (Didak)

They'll be more pressure for spots next year. A youngster or two will surprize. Don't know if anyone could have predicted Keefe improving like he did last year for instance... Plenty of excitement ahead. We'll be a lot fresher going into 2013 than previous years, most of our guys were carrying injuries and many had poor seasons by their own standard. We also wern't the best team in it, and for much of the second half of the season either gave a limp wristed performance or were just not hunted like previous years.
 
Paddywhackers said:
Talk of Swan as playing in the forward line is something that I like expecially with Beams coming of age. If Giles comes to Magpieland, than we are flag favourites. Unlikely we can get both, but if we could get Giles and Caddy, who both apparently want to come to Collingwood, well that than would be huge. We'd have Ball and Keefe back. IMO Keefe was better than N. Brown but than Keefe will be coming back from a knee, and Borwn was coming back from a knee this year, so that spot is about 50/50, but i'm going to be different and give it to Keefe but really I rate him ahead cause he's taller and can pinch hit in the ruck.


What would we have to give up for Giles and Caddy? Wellers, Goldy and our first round pick. We're probably miles ahead on those trades, and we'd probably have to give up Harry'O instead of Goldy, but anyways, here is my starting 22.

Toovey Keefe Shaw
O'Brien Reid Maxwell
Thomas Ball Sidebottom
Swan Dawes Fasolo
Krakouer Cloke Blair
Jolly Pendlebury Beams
Giles Caddy Paine (Didak)

They'll be more pressure for spots next year. A youngster or two will surprize. Don't know if anyone could have predicted Keefe improving like he did last year for instance... Plenty of excitement ahead. We'll be a lot fresher going into 2013 than previous years, most of our guys were carrying injuries and many had poor seasons by their own standard. We also wern't the best team in it, and for much of the second half of the season either gave a limp wristed performance or were just not hunted like previous years.
Click to expand...

Good honest post.
 
Delist wood and Ugle. Keep Young and Yagmoor.

I think we should rookie Kris Pendlebury, We lost Tarrant, Gault is a forward not a defender imo. So that only really leaves Hartley and a back up key defender behind the 3 good ones we have.
I completely agree with the talk of altering the backline. One of toovey, Maxwell and O'brien has to get out of there.
I hope Marley Williams gets a good string of games early playing as that small defender. I think he can play on the likes of Cyril and Betts and do a good job. Toovey has the discipline and mentality to turn into a tagger, i have always thought it. I would experiment with it in the NAB cup. His kicks in the finals was woeful, and a detriment to the back line.
O'brien may leave, but he has so much talent. Would love to see him played forward for a game or two to see how he would go.
Maxwell is near useless in any other position, and as captain will remain as the 3rd/4th tall. IMO Toovey or O'brien will be out of the backline next season.

B: N.Maxwell, N.Brown, M.Williams
HB: H.Shaw, B.Reid, H.O'brien

I think we should take a page out of Richmond's book and play one of Swan or Thomas as a deep forward. Cotchin and Martin have kicked multiple goals this season playing deep forward, and Swan or Thomas could kick 40-50 goals playing deep forward all season. With Ball returning, i think beams should stay in the middle as well.

R: D.Jolly, S.Pendlebury, D.Beams
C: D.Thomas, L.Ball, S.Sidebottom

Dawes should continue as the second ruckman, unless we find someone better in trade week. If Dawes doesn't impress early, give the job to Lachy Keefe after some VFL games coming back from his knee reco.
Didak on the HFF will be lethal if he remains fit.

HF: A.Didak, T.Cloke, A.Krakouer
F: C.Dawes, D.Swan, T.Goldsack

I: J.Blair, S.Wellingham, A.Toovey
sub: J.Elliott

EMG: B.Johnson, L.Keefe, B.Sinclair, M.Clarke, J.Paine, New Recruits.

I look forward to trade/draft week. Heres hoping cloke signs on. Can't wait to see who hine takes with our first round pick.
 
Moving forward, i can see Keefe, Brown and Reid all playing in the same backline. This is of course once Maxwell moves on.

However, for the mean time, Keefe or Brown will miss out, unless Keefe can play the second ruck/forward role.
 
Do you think the 22 to we played on the weekend with the addition of Maxwell and Ball is good enough to win the GF next year?
Hawks won't get any worse, Crows will improve and so will about 1/2 a dozen clubs.

After watching Sydney and Hawks we need some bigger bodies around the midfield.

O'Keefe, Kennedy, Sewell all dominate.

We also need some pace, if Krakouer was younger and could play in the middle/wing ala Jetta and Rioli that would be great.

We also need someone with a better kick out from fullback/defense. Not Johnson, God i wish Davis had of stayed on.
 
I say let cloke go, as much as i've followed his career and showed support over the years.. I just dont like the way he/his management have gone about it this year, he will take up alot of our salary cap and really we cant afford this! In addition to this I'd rather cloke go and we keep the likes of sack, harry, sharrod and possibly bring in a quality free agent etc (caddy or something, would love someone with polish and pace!) He believes his bigger than the club and when you come to think of past legends like pants, tony shaw, bucks, presti, jimmy clement, lica etc they played for the love of the club, just think clokes actions go to prove his out for himself and our clubs premiership chances have dealt a huge blow! i think however, young paine can step up let us guide him in the right way! we are collingwood after all and we will be back bigger and better next year!
 
Also as much as I love maxy and how good of a leader he is and how important he is to our side (which was evident on friday) does he have a place in our 22? besides his incredible leadership i dont see much plus side, pendles must be on the verge of being the next captain!

p.s sorry for double post guys :)
 
ash84 said:
Do you think the 22 to we played on the weekend with the addition of Maxwell and Ball is good enough to win the GF next year?
Hawks won't get any worse, Crows will improve and so will about 1/2 a dozen clubs.

After watching Sydney and Hawks we need some bigger bodies around the midfield.

O'Keefe, Kennedy, Sewell all dominate.

We also need some pace, if Krakouer was younger and could play in the middle/wing ala Jetta and Rioli that would be great.

We also need someone with a better kick out from fullback/defense. Not Johnson, God i wish Davis had of stayed on.
Click to expand...
Swan has a big body and is around the ball lots. Wouldn't it be great if it was in his game to use it sometimes? :rolleyes:
 
Paddywhackers said:
Talk of Swan as playing in the forward line is something that I like expecially with Beams coming of age. If Giles comes to Magpieland, than we are flag favourites. Unlikely we can get both, but if we could get Giles and Caddy, who both apparently want to come to Collingwood, well that than would be huge. We'd have Ball and Keefe back. IMO Keefe was better than N. Brown but than Keefe will be coming back from a knee, and Borwn was coming back from a knee this year, so that spot is about 50/50, but i'm going to be different and give it to Keefe but really I rate him ahead cause he's taller and can pinch hit in the ruck.


What would we have to give up for Giles and Caddy? Wellers, Goldy and our first round pick. We're probably miles ahead on those trades, and we'd probably have to give up Harry'O instead of Goldy, but anyways, here is my starting 22.

Toovey Keefe Shaw
O'Brien Reid Maxwell
Thomas Ball Sidebottom
Swan Dawes Fasolo
Krakouer Cloke Blair
Jolly Pendlebury Beams
Giles Caddy Paine (Didak)

They'll be more pressure for spots next year. A youngster or two will surprize. Don't know if anyone could have predicted Keefe improving like he did last year for instance... Plenty of excitement ahead. We'll be a lot fresher going into 2013 than previous years, most of our guys were carrying injuries and many had poor seasons by their own standard. We also wern't the best team in it, and for much of the second half of the season either gave a limp wristed performance or were just not hunted like previous years.
Click to expand...
Keeffe until his injury was the best defender we had this year until Reid,s return to form,Keeffe also is one of the better user,s of the ball.
I just hope he is up and going by rd 1 that would give us a lift,Krak returned fast and has looked very good since his return he looks like he has full mobility of his knee and his movement has been great.
 

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joefootylover said:
Thing I think they see in Sinclair is that he is one of the 3 quickest player over 20 meters at the club, the others being Mooney and Swan (Toovey is top 5 too). So the poster saying he is "average" pace is just straight up wrong, he is fast, but he hasn't used it to his advantage too much this year. Think he turned a corner mid way through the year and was just starting to reward the faith when he did an ankle or something and never got back to the level for the rest of the year, it's a shame, but frankly he is just one of a number of VFL players who will be looking to push into the senior side next year, and his experience this year will help him, but I don't think he is any more of a "lock" than Josh Thomas, Seedsman, Williams (who I like more than the same poster who called him "average") or some new draftee's, but we can hope for improvement, not every player announces themselves in thier first year or so, some take development.
Click to expand...


Sinclair needs to put on 10kg of muscle he is so lightly built that in finals he is just moved off his line way to easy and he can't break the tackles due to a lack of power.

He is worth persisting with but I wouldn't call him a starting 22 unless he can add some bulk and clean up his disposal, as his attack on the contest and speed are great.

I'd be delisting Wood, Young, Ugle and Rounds off the top of my head.

Young has very poor disposal, lacks pace and is a vanilla mid which are a dime a dozen at VFL/SANFL/WAFL lv, do not want any more ball butchers.
 
Kwality said:
Pardon my intrusion, but as an outside I suggest you guys have holes left by the departure of Leroy Brown & Neon Leon.
Are there replacements inhouse or do you need to draft/trade replacements ?
I came here following suggestion on the WC board of interest in the Q-stick.
Click to expand...
Given the Q-stick's ordinary final's game against us, I would hope we are looking elsewhere for a 2nd ruck.
 
Kwality said:
Pardon my intrusion, but as an outside I suggest you guys have holes left by the departure of Leroy Brown & Neon Leon.
Are there replacements inhouse or do you need to draft/trade replacements ?
I came here following suggestion on the WC board of interest in the Q-stick.
Click to expand...
reckon we will stick with Dawes, maybe try Keeffe, maybe try Celgar, maybe even Gault in a year or two. Davis is harder to replace.
 
hearing now tho that we may be offering a rookie gig to a 19 year old basketballer by the name of Ben Richmond, 195cm, 78cm vertical jump, similar congestion awareness in testing to Pendles. That jump is in NicNat territory and that size is versatile. I reckon long term the number one ruck gig is Witts' to lose but his support will likely be some kind of versatile utility, its nice to see us continuing to experiment and push the envelope, now I just hope we go for pace and skill, pace and skill, pace and skill in the draft.
 
In my perfect world, we'd get the 2 guys in Bold (dont ask me how, nfi)

B Toovey Brown Shaw
HB Goddard Reid Maxwell
C Thomas Ball Sidebottom
HF Swan Dawes Fasolo
F Krakouer Cloke Blair
R Jolly Pendlebury Beams
Inter Giles O'Brien Johnson (Didak)


Emg Paine Keefe Sinclair Clarke Elliot
 
I agree with the original post on our ruck stocks, i think that keefe will be able to add more depth in that area so that dawes and himself can share some of the responsibilities. Picking up another ruckman ie giles or macintosh would be handy though. My view is that our backline run really lacked poise and skill this year, a view shared by many. I really rate toovey as a one on one defender but with ball in hand he is always a nailbiter when disposing. Prime example was his handball back into the sydney goalsquare after some great defensive work in the prelim

With Ball back next year, that free's up one of our inside mids to move to a wing, and i was wondering what people thought about throwing daisy on a half back flank alongside shaw. Unbelievable competitor and rarely gets beaten one on one, would make him accountable in the game and would allow him to use his pace, disposal and flare coming out of our backline. With him and shaw running tandem from the half back that would create some headaches for opposition. Thoughts?
 
I love the way that so many "experts" are predicting a pies slide in 2013. i am looking forward to disappointing them all big time. seriously, what an effort from our great club to get to a prelim in 2012. from quarter 1 of day 1 in the 2012 nab cup things started to go wrong when caff went down with a knee. on the injury front it just snowballed from there, you just have to look at the 22 that played in the prelim and list those with interrupted preparations during 2012 - reid brown beams toovey shaw pendles swan, johnson krak taz thomas jolly goldsack sinclair elliott all missed a minimum 2 games to inj/susp during the year and in most cases significantly more. dawes was severely hobbled in the prelim, while ball maxy dids caff keefe didn't even make it to the line. even a youngster who was making a mark like marley williams went down and needed a shoulder reco

yet there we were early in the last quarter of the prelim giving one last bit of cheek when goldy pulled it back to 20 pts. sitting in the crowd at anz stadium the nervousness of the swans fans was palpable, and in one case of a fan sitting near me quite humorous

all being even, there is no doubt we are a better side than the swans and crows. but all is not even on the fixturing and injury front, and hence the swans were well placed to get the better of us on fri night, and good luck to them. had we met either of syd or adel in week 1 of finals, very confident we'd have got the job done, had a week off and progressed to the GF. but thems the breaks. the eagles are in the same boat, they are probably, all being even, right there with us as the 2nd and 3rd best sides in the comp. but they were likewise destroyed by injs

moving forward, there is no basis for anyone to predict a slide next year. the pies list still smacks of one that will challenge strongly over the next 3-4 seasons as all of our prime movers are really still at or approaching the peak of their powers. all we need is more luck on the injury front. - a midfield built around swan pendles thomas sidebottom beams ball wellingham will continue to hold us in good stead, reid and brown are the defensive pillars for years to come, but obviously we must keep cloke. should he depart, we could slide to a 2nd half of the 8 position next year. i absolutely expect coll to be top 2 with a decent inj run next year
 
totally agree with those sentiments yeeeee-haaaaa!! and as a kind of 'part 2" I just want to point out how well we are placed in terms of the age spread of our list to remain competitive;

At the end of 2013 several players will be 30 or over, set to either retire or at least begin the transition, we will need players with mature bodies to slot into the spots that they leave, here are my thoughts:

RETIREES:
Johnson 32
Jolly 32
Krakouer 30
Didak 30
Maxwell 30

Below is a 21 with the "replacements" starred. i am not saying that these guys will take the spots, younger, more talented and hungrier player may leapfrog them with development, but my point is that right now we have options, and there is no reason we can't challenge for a flag in at least seasons 2013, 14, and 15.

SENIORS:
FB: Toovey 26 Brown 24 Shaw 27
HB: O'Brien 26 Reid 24 **Clarke 25**

C: Thomas 26 Swan 29 Wellingham 25

HF: Fasolo 21 Dawes 25 Goldsack 26
FF: **Macaffer 25** Cloke 26 **Sinclair 22**

R: Witts 21 Beams 23 Pendles 25

INT:
Sidebottom 22
Ball 29
Blair 23

The ages above are the approximate ages of the players at the END of season 2013. I have Witts taking over from Jolly as number one ruck going forward because I am bullish about Witts, 208cm, 113kg, similar skills to Ben Hudson in terms of ground ball and hands, has a nice case of white line fever which I absolutely love in a ruck man, will be a player, mark my words. Was done no favours by having to share first ruck in the VFL with both Wood and Celgar (and even Shae), hopefully they can make some room for him to grow into, pardon the pun.

Now I think it is no exaggeration to say that the VAST BULK of the reason we won a flag in 2010 and contested a Grand Final last year is still in that side and still in it's prime, with jolly the biggest piece missing, followed by Leroy (gasp) and Davis and Krakouer. The engine room is intact and in fact should be stronger than in any of the years including 2010 with a fit Ball and the revaluation that is Beams circa 2012.

JUNIORS:
B: Williams 20 Gault 20 Seedsman 21

F: Elliot 21 Paine 20 Mooney 20

C: Celgar 22 Young 21 JThomas 22

U: Keeffe 23

And running around in the VFL we have a bunch of prospects that I am very excited about, many of whom are still very, very young, even at the end of 2013.

FUTURE:
Stewart
Richmond
Edwards
Moore

And of course i expect the Pies to continue to pursue Ireland, Basketball and Soccer conversions, and anything and everything that might give us a competitive advantage, including father sons.

GO PIES!
 
Never understood why Krita hasn't been put even on the Rookie list at the very least.

If we can pull off Goddard and Giles (not sure how though) and Ball and Didak stay injury free next year (as well as half a dozen others), then I don't see why a Grand Final spot shouldn't be booked in for next year.
 

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Preview State of the list 2013

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