Moved Thread Survey reveals West Coast's home ground umpiring advantage..

[TriX78]

If I could be bothered entering into a pre-pubescent discussion about which ridiculous decisions had more effect on the result I'm sure I could pick out plenty. You appear to have stolen a march on that so I'll leave you to have your little hissy.

So it's easier to be dismissive of someones opinion and throw childish abuse there way than actually discuss it with facts and stats? Gee the internet has spawned this arrogant "my opinion only matters yours is invalid" type of attitude. Yours is a perfect example of what I mean.

 

[byronstjames]

So it's easier to be dismissive of someones opinion and throw childish abuse there way than actually discuss it with facts and stats? Gee the internet has spawned this arrogant "my opinion only matters yours is invalid" type of attitude. Yours is a perfect example of what I mean.

I think it's more the fact that these arguments achieve nothing and are pointless.

You've only got to watch footy to see exactly what the article in question is talking about.

 

[PieNSauce]

So it's easier to be dismissive of someones opinion and throw childish abuse there way than actually discuss it with facts and stats? Gee the internet has spawned this arrogant "my opinion only matters yours is invalid" type of attitude. Yours is a perfect example of what I mean.

No, it's easier to dismiss an obviously pre-pubescent argument because I have no intention of discussing the relative merits of one umpiring decision over another when the outcome is obviously going to be a stalemate. Anyone over the age of 5 would know the value of arguing an evaluation between opposing stakeholders on a matter of subjective opinion. Can I provide proof positive about my opinion? No. Can you? No! Pretty simple when you apply logic I'd have thought.

 

[TriX78]

I think it's more the fact that these arguments achieve nothing and are pointless.

You've only got to watch footy to see exactly what the article in question is talking about.

Meh it's the same every year. Except when a non victorian team gets more free kicks the victorian media make it their mission to point it out to everyone.

Essendon most times win a free count when they play a non vic side. I have seen the bombers handed matches after blatant frees where missed.

 

[TriX78]

No, it's easier to dismiss an obviously pre-pubescent argument because I have no intention of discussing the relative merits of one umpiring decision over another when the outcome is obviously going to be a stalemate. Anyone over the age of 5 would know the value of arguing an evaluation between opposing stakeholders on a matter of subjective opinion. Can I provide proof positive about my opinion? No. Can you? No! Pretty simple when you apply logic I'd have thought.

Your retorts are equally if not more "pre-pubescent" than anything he wrote. All you are doing is being arrogant, smug and throwing disguised abuse around without offering anything.

 

[superfreak]

Here is the Inside Football story...

http://insidefootballonline.com/feature.html

 

[Deepthroat]

In 2006 at the behest of several outspoken media/VFL legends we had the AFL inquiry "How do we make Vicotrian clubs more competitive?".
In 2012 are we going to face something similar?
Probably.
It is their league afterall, the rest of the sides are just their to help prop many of their clubs financially.
P!ssweak.

 

[PieNSauce]

Your retorts are equally if not more "pre-pubescent" than anything he wrote. All you are doing is being arrogant, smug and throwing disguised abuse around without offering anything.

Oh no. Perhaps next time I should engage in pointless childish arguments which amount to throwing all of the toys out of the cot. My sincerest apologies for calling it as it is!

 

[Ambrosia]

It doesn't make sense to me that West Coast fans don't admit that having a crowd made up of 95% Eagles fans doesn't influence the umpires. The same thing happens at the dome when Essendon play teams like the Swans in Victoria.

 

[mufassa]

The fear is palpable

Yeah - Pies are fav or the flag and the Hawks are 2nd. We are terrified of a Pies V Hawks Grand Final.

 

[SuperSub]

Since 2000 WCE have finished everywhere from first to last, and won everything from the Premiership to the Wooden Spoon. What this says to me is that if you are good enough you will win anywhere, and regardless of factors outside your control like home groud advantage and umpiring decisions. If you are not good enough, you won't. Well coached teams will examine what they could have done better after a loss, and work on their deficiencies to improve. Teams that are not so well coached will focus on how they were disadvantaged by umpires, injuries, weather conditions or whatever they can find to excuse their poor performance.

I am really pleased that John Worsfold never uses umpiring as an excuse, but after a loss will always talk about what they have learnt from their performance. Compare his reaction after a 3pt loss to Collingwood at the MCG, where we lost the free kick count by 2, and Carlton coach and players response after they lost to the WCE at Subiaco by 10 pts, and also lost the free kick count by 2 pts. Worsfold's approach may be considered boring, as he gives the media no controversy to latch on to, which can stir up a hysterical discussion. It gives me confidence however in the mindset of the coach and that he is impressing on his players that the important thing is to learn from a loss, not find excuses.

Statistics do seem to indicate that we do get a favorable run from the umpires, particularly, though not exclusively, at home. As has been already discussed by many posters, there are a variety of reasons which contribute to this, but is at least in part explained by the phenomenon that is called home ground advantage, something that applies in pretty well every sport at every level of competition from amateurs to international professionals. It is certainly not unique to West Coast, despite the current protestations of many in the media and big footy posters. I guess this is what makes many WCE supporters so upset, because it feels like we are being perceived as having unfair advantages that nobody else ever receives, when this is clearly not the case.

Surely, if there is a real issue here, it is to do with the competence of the umpires, not with the way WCE play the game. However the discussion is never framed in terms of why are these umpiring discrepancies arising, and what can be done to improve their performance. It is always framed in terms of "the eagles are duckers, or chuckers, or get an unfair advantage from umpire decisions"' so that old antipathies and jealousies can be stirred up, rather than having a balanced and objective discussion about what may or may not be a legitimate issue. We do not have control over the umpires whistle, we play with the same rules that apply to every team. In every game there will be incorrect decisions, undeserved free kicks paid, deserved free kicks not paid, one team will usually get more free kicks, or score more goals from free kicks, crowds will boo the umpires, and call "ball" against the opposition, players will make mistakes, and/or get intimidated playing away from home in a hostile environment, teams will be disadvantaged by injuries during a match, and somebody will and somebody will lose. However, the current popular opinion is that all negatives are only applicable to WCE and their supporters, we deserve no credit for anything, and every other team and its supporters are as pure as the driven snow. This is what really riles me as a West Coast supporter - the blatant hypocrisy!

As I said at the start, if you are good enough you will find a way to win, and you will suck it up whe you lose.

 

[Ghossein]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/more-news/free-kick-from-umps-out-west/story-e6frf9jf-1226411601264


THE AFL has refused to address startling statistics that further highlight West Coast's home-ground umpiring advantage.

A study has shown West Australian umpires give West Coast twice as many free kicks as their interstate opponents at Patersons Stadium. But AFL spokesman Patrick Keane last night offered only one line in response to repeated questions about the issue.

"Umpires pay what they see," Keane said.

The Herald Sun last month revealed the Eagles were the big winners with 524 more frees than interstate opponents at Subiaco since 2000. But an Inside Football study this week shows the discrepancy is even greater when home-town umpires are involved.

The Eagles have received an average 10.1 frees for this year from WA umpires, compared with 5.2 for their opponents. Non-WA whistleblowers reduced that discrepancy to 8.8 to 5.9. South Australian umpires give the two Adelaide-based teams an average 8.3-5.9 edge at AAMI Stadium, compared with 5.9-5.8 from non-SA umpires.

But in Victoria, local clubs receive only a 5.6-5.3 edge from home-grown umpires, while non-Victorian umpires take that even further, giving the home clubs 5.0 frees compared with 6.2 for interstate rivals.

The study also revealed West Coast was the big winner in scores directly from free kicks and 50m penalties. The Eagles have scored 40.18 this year from those sources combined, almost double Richmond and Hawthorn in equal second place at 24.16. Collingwood had the lowest scores, 12.14.

Another survey released today has revealed that the sky is widely considered to be blue.

4.9 extra free kicks?!?

pls strip west coast of all premiership points

 

[Mattman93]

Cox is also a master at throwing his arms in the air at ruck contests and pleading for soft free kicks, he gets more free kicks than anyone and it's not just because he's a good ruckman.

Well actually it is, it's heavily related to body position and strength, because he almost always plants himself in the front spot and refuses to be moved, forcing the opposing ruckman to border on giving away a free kick. From there he's a master at accentuating the contact just enough. Watching Jolly hold Naitanui at throw-ins constantly, only for Cox to take over, have Jolly grab his arm and then pull himself forwards to make the hold really obvious was a joy to watch.

Of course, some of it can be attributed to the luxuries star players are afforded, similar to the way Judd and Ablett seem exempt from HtB, and strong key forwards can get away with much more pushing and shoving.

 

[mufassa]

4.9 extra free kicks?!?

pls strip west coast of all premiership points

You can under sell it but the umps that are from WA hand out double the frees to WCE players. It is clear bais and they should no longer get WCE games.

 

[Ghossein]

You can under sell it but the umps that are from WA hand out double the frees to WCE players. It is clear bais and they should no longer get WCE games.

that's all well and good, and i guess it makes sense. fair enough.

wait.......... where were you all in 2010?

 

[Ari]

the simple statistic that is really disheartening here is that the eagles get double the frees form their hometown WA umpires.

That is not umpiring that is barracking.

The eagles literally have an extra player on the pitch.

The Eagles have received an average 10.1 frees for this year from WA umpires, compared with 5.2 for their opponents. Non-WA whistleblowers reduced that discrepancy to 8.8 to 5.9

But even better they get them in front for a shot more times than not.

The study also revealed West Coast was the big winner in scores directly from free kicks and 50m penalties. The Eagles have scored 40.18 this year from those sources combined, almost double Richmond and Hawthorn in equal second place at 24.16

Umpires must be proffesional NOW.

Hometown umpiring must be outlawed. Unless both teams are from the same state.

THIS. Oh God this!

I saw the WCE vs North match a month back and I was almost sick to the stomach with the home umpiring I saw.

I tell you one thing, they can have all the home umpiring they like... and STATISTICS DON'T LIE.... but when it comes time for finals, they will be shown for what they are. Local heroes.

The MCG is where the game is played boys.

 

[TriX78]

Oh no. Perhaps next time I should engage in pointless childish arguments which amount to throwing all of the toys out of the cot. My sincerest apologies for calling it as it is!

So the whole point of you replying to these threads is so you can get a kick out of throwing your arrogance around without offering anything of value? Thats it isn't it.

You have said your bit now leave the thread to those who want to discuss the topic. No one needs to read your silly replies anyway.

 

[Forward Press]

THIS. Oh God this!

I saw the WCE vs North match a month back and I was almost sick to the stomach with the home umpiring I saw.

I tell you one thing, they can have all the home umpiring they like... and STATISTICS DON'T LIE.... but when it comes time for finals, they will be shown for what they are. Local heroes.

The MCG is where the game is played boys.

We've won three Grand Finals in 92, 94 and 06. Where do you think the Grand Final was played in those years?

 

[TriX78]

THIS. Oh God this!

I saw the WCE vs North match a month back and I was almost sick to the stomach with the home umpiring I saw.

I tell you one thing, they can have all the home umpiring they like... and STATISTICS DON'T LIE.... but when it comes time for finals, they will be shown for what they are. Local heroes.

The MCG is where the game is played boys.

Really sick to the stomach? Did you go to hospital that day to get it checked out? Were you outraged? Did you ring up KB and have a whinge? Did you write into the herald sun? Must have been such a tough day for you, no really i can't imagine the horros you would have gone through.

What a bitter reply. And ironic that a bummer fan is having a whinge about the umpire. No really.

 

[Quinz]

There's something strange about these figures.

At home WA teams with WA umpires get +4.9 over travelling sides. With travelling umpires, it's +2.9

At home Vic teams with Vic umpires get +0.3 over interstate sides, while with travelling umpires they get -1.2

WA discrepancy 2, Vic discrepancy has to be considered -1.5, surely?

Seriously? No wonder articles like this generate such debate.

It is very simple, take the first number and subtract the second. Working on the basis that the interstate number is the 'impartial' number, and the difference between that and the home figure. This shows that, across all three states, home umpires are relatively more likely to pay free kicks to the home team and not to the travelling team, when compared to interstate umpires.

The numbers again
SA +2.3
WA +2
Vic +1.5

The only startling figure there is that there is no startling figure. The situation is the same across states, and might be something the AFL wants to address- a journalist who wanted to do some real work would write about that. The numbers compared to each other aren't even surprising, because Vic fans have more low drawing games against interstate sides, while Subi and FP can have a more imposing atmosphere.

There are several reasons why we have a high free kick discrepancy this year, the home umpire factor is one. But it is not a startling figure, it is an unremarkable piece of the bigger picture.

Using it as any kind of 'evidence' is shallow and lazy, and casting aspersions on the WA umpires because of it is unfair to them.

 

[Ari]

Why is it everytime the non victorian teams start to dominate the victorian media starts pulling out statistics, they start with their non victorian crap and generally act like petulant little children.

Victorians must make up their mind, do they want their code to grow or do they just want it to be a exclusively victorian game? They can't keep going with this silly arrogance that we interstaters have to conform to their ways in regards to AVFL.

This happened 7 years ago when interstate teams were dominating.

Are you reading right? This is a topic which has been discussed all year. West Coast get more free kicks at home than any other team at home. It's a TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.

Yes, Victorians would love a truly National competition. In fact, in Victoria they pretty much are. Stats over a number of games shows that local teams and teams outside Victoria are pretty close to on par with free kicks. For West coast the local free's are double!

This is not just a little bit ahead, or a spike from one week. This is a startling number and one which needs to be looked at and considered.

I think you need to stop with your emotional argument and look at this from a numbers perspective like the article in question is.

 

[garygee]

Of course all Weagles fans will deny it and call it crying etc. but we out of state supporters know better. Had to laugh at the media that pretend that this is not the case. The stats don't lie. Hawthon played WCE in round 4 and WCE won by less than one goal.
http://www.smartreplay.afl.com.au/?...05&eventType=free&seek=6976&videoQuality=high here is a "game changing decision". This sort of thing happens all the time. BTW the Weagles fans should be upset because of the false hope they get. BTW FF was 33 FA was 23 for WCE

 

[PieNSauce]

So the whole point of you replying to these threads is so you can get a kick out of throwing your arrogance around without offering anything of value? Thats it isn't it.

You have said your bit now leave the thread to those who want to discuss the topic. No one needs to read your silly replies anyway.

So the whole point of you replying to these threads is so you can get a kick out of throwing your arrogance around without offering anything of value? Thats it isn't it.

You have said your bit now leave the thread to those who want to discuss the topic. No one needs to read your silly replies anyway.

See, I can do that too!

 

[Mattman93]

Seriously? No wonder articles like this generate such debate.

It is very simple, take the first number and subtract the second. Working on the basis that the interstate number is the 'impartial' number, and the difference between that and the home figure. This shows that, across all three states, home umpires are relatively more likely to pay free kicks to the home team and not to the travelling team, when compared to interstate umpires.

The numbers again
SA +2.3
WA +2
Vic +1.5

The only startling figure there is that there is no startling figure. The situation is the same across states, and might be something the AFL wants to address- a journalist who wanted to do some real work would write about that. The numbers compared to each other aren't even surprising, because Vic fans have more low drawing games against interstate sides, while Subi and FP can have a more imposing atmosphere.

There are several reasons why we have a high free kick discrepancy this year, the home umpire factor is one. But it is not a startling figure, it is an unremarkable piece of the bigger picture.

Using it as any kind of 'evidence' is shallow and lazy, and casting aspersions on the WA umpires because of it is unfair to them.

I wish we had a rep system right about now.

Now watch this get practically ignored.

 

[garygee]

Of course all Weagles fans will deny it and call it crying etc. but we out of state supporters know better. Had to laugh at the media that pretend that this is not the case. The stats don't lie. Hawthon played WCE in round 4 and WCE won by less than one goal.
http://www.smartreplay.afl.com.au/?...05&eventType=free&seek=6976&videoQuality=high here is a "game changing decision". This sort of thing happens all the time. BTW the Weagles fans should be upset because of the false hope they get. BTW FF was 32 FA was 22 for WCE

This was skipped over as everybody was busy talking about the WCE ducking at the time.