"Systematic Salary Cap Cheating"

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The Ewok

Club Legend
Oct 8, 2001
2,084
2
Good old Braddles and SOS!

Seems like 2 other club may be in trouble too!

Silvagni, Bradley admit rort
By Caroline Wilson
November 15 2002

The Carlton crisis deepened yesterday when two of the club's legends - Stephen Silvagni and Craig Bradley - confessed to the AFL that they had been involved in systematic salary cap cheating.

The move by Silvagni, who was voted on to the Carlton board on Tuesday night, and former skipper Bradley is believed to have come at the instigation of the club's new president Ian Collins.

Collins has now been given an extra three days to present his case to the AFL Commission.

In other developments yesterday:

- Carlton has reportedly revised its projected loss to an estimated $1 million after Collins and his new board spent Wednesday inspecting the club's football finances;

- Two other clubs will come under salary cap scrutiny by the AFL before the start of next season;

- Silvagni was reportedly urged by fellow directors to remain on the Blues' board and will, like Bradley, be granted indemnity for coming forward to the league;

- Collins moved to open the club's player payment details to the AFL upon learning the severity of the Blues' irregularities.

Collins will now front the commission in seven days, less than 48 hours before the scheduled national draft at which the Blues look certain to be stripped of their opening two picks.

As revealed by The Age two days ago, the AFL remains determined to punish Carlton over successive drafts and has told at least three other clubs of its intention to do so.

Despite claims by the league yesterday that the commission was unaware of any detail regarding the Blues' under-the-table payments, it is understood that commission chairman Ron Evans had been consistently briefed by his chief executive Wayne Jackson and Jackson's deputy Andrew Demetriou.

Jackson and Demetriou did not return calls from The Age last night.

Evans, Jackson and Demetriou remain determined to make an example of the Blues, whose former president John Elliott has consistently denied the club had anything to fear from investigation.

Those denials continued after two charges against the club were announced by the AFL on Monday.

The executive trio have repeatedly said they would recommend to the remaining commissioners that the Blues lose their first two picks in the coming draft along with picks two and three - which remain part of a suspended sentence hanging over the club - in next year's draft.

The timing of Collins' presentation is significant coming at 6pm next Friday, November 22, which would appear to rob the club of any legal attempt to thwart the AFL's punishment.

Collins had requested an extension before being required to face the commission.

The Blues' board, which began meeting at Optus Oval two days ago at 8am and did not depart until 7.30pm, will officially meet again early next week to continue to plough through the club's financial details and interview staff, many of whom have already painted a picture of a club run as a virtual autocracy by one man - Elliott.

The mooted million-dollar loss relates only to the football club and not the social club.

It has come despite a $300,000 injection in October from the sale of Waverley Park.

In one positive for Carlton yesterday, the club re-signed talented forward Matthew Lappin for three years.

And the Blues' only surviving directors from Elliott's last days - former champions Stephen Kernahan and Greg Williams - have indicated they would like to join coach Denis Pagan at the selection table next season.

 
Raises an interesting point. As players do Silvagni and Bradley have a responsibility to "play by the rules" when it comes to their payments??. Especially being marquee players and dare I say it, role model players for young kids. Are they telling kids by their actions that its OK to cheat? That greed is good?

Tainted very tainted.

Its all so sad. LMFAO.
 

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Originally posted by The Ewok
Good old Braddles and SOS!
The executive trio have repeatedly said they would recommend to the remaining commissioners that the Blues lose their first two picks in the coming draft along with picks two and three - which remain part of a suspended sentence hanging over the club - in next year's draft.
[/i]

Does anyone else have a problem with the commission regarding Carltons current second round pick. This was originally Ports second rounder, traded in the French deal. Surely the AFl are not going to let Carlton trade back in a round, pick up a decent player in the process, and then simply strip the pick and call it Carltons second round pick.

Port should be stripped of pick 18 in the draft. After all, EVERY club was warned that Carlton were under investigation and may lose draft picks.:)
 
Re: Re: "Systematic Salary Cap Cheating"

Originally posted by Saturday@2
Does anyone else have a problem with the commission regarding Carltons current second round pick. This was originally Ports second rounder, traded in the French deal. Surely the AFl are not going to let Carlton trade back in a round, pick up a decent player in the process, and then simply strip the pick and call it Carltons second round pick.
I think they are taking about round 1 + priority in 2003 and round 2 & 3 in 2004. That would eliminate your issue if I read it correctly.
 
SUPPOSEDLY, every club is going to get audited over the next 2 years. But realistically there are only a select number of clubs in the position to match what Carlton have been charged of doing under Elliott's reign.
 
Originally posted by Deej
SUPPOSEDLY, every club is going to get audited over the next 2 years. But realistically there are only a select number of clubs in the position to match what Carlton have been charged of doing under Elliott's reign.
We possibly could have bought our way out of a spoon in 1999, in much the same way you bought yourself into a Grand Final that year.....but we didn't.

We have worked hard to be where we are today and we are playing fairly and squarely within the rules.

Collingwood have honour. Carlton do not.
 
I doubt anyone will match the Blues efforts.

Essendon will have some questions to answer is the AFL are fair dunkum. Some obvious deals there. Melbourne are pretty worried and Richmond have to be close but I have no reason to think they have deliberately done and dodgy deals. Fremantle would want to have their house in order. Collingwood have had their problems and I only hope Eddie has thouroughly looked into the time prior to his reign and knows exactly where the club stands.

Some of the clubs may have some more minor problems brought about by the minimum payments forcing crap players to be over paid and thereby artificially forcing poor lists to stretch the salary cap when players get injured or recieve performance bonus'. That stupid rule meant clubs had too little room to plan for performance based contracts. None of that is anything like the Carlton situtaion. Mr. Evans would be pretty glad the Commission won't go back into his time at the Bombers. The late '90's & early '00's would concern the Bombers though. Some motivation for offload some premiership players once the Blues postion and consequences were know.

The real problem with what Carlton have done is that it was so deliberate, systematic and involved some real $$$$.
 
Originally posted by FIGJAM

We possibly could have bought our way out of a spoon in 1999, in much the same way you bought yourself into a Grand Final that year.....but we didn't.

We have worked hard to be where we are today and we are playing fairly and squarely within the rules.

Collingwood have honour. Carlton do not.
I don't doubt that may be the case, but are you honestly that naive to suggest that Carlton were the ONLY club working outside the rules? Might I remind you that back in 1990 Collingwood cheated the cap and won a flag from it, but I guess you conveniently forget about all that eh John.
 
Originally posted by Deej
I don't doubt that may be the case, but are you honestly that naive to suggest that Carlton were the ONLY club working outside the rules? Might I remind you that back in 1990 Collingwood cheated the cap and won a flag from it, but I guess you conveniently forget about all that eh John.
No, I am not suggesting that, but you were easily the most crooked.

I honestly don't recall hearing about Collingwood ever being caught outside the cap in 1990. Then again, I was only 14 at the time and it was 12 years ago. I would hedge a bet that if we were over, it wouldn't go close to the dishonesty that your dirty club has exhibited!

I think we are running our Club better than anyone else at the time being and we are doing it all above board. I am proud of my Club. You surely cannot be proud of yours!?!
 
Originally posted by FIGJAM
I honestly don't recall hearing about Collingwood ever being caught outside the cap in 1990. Then again, I was only 14 at the time and it was 12 years ago. I would hedge a bet that if we were over, it wouldn't go close to the dishonesty that your dirty club has exhibited!
It was related to incentives paid when they won the flag and fully investigated and punnished. There is a distinction between injury or incentives leading to minor infractions and Canturbury type deliberate cheating. The former is bad enough but the latter is totally unacceptable and ought to be punnished very harshly or the salary cap system dropped. You simply cannot have a levelling agent not applied equally to all or it is an unlevelling agent. You can't have if blanantly and continually rorted and claim any sembalnce of credability in trying to maintain ane rule at all.
 
Originally posted by FIGJAM

No, I am not suggesting that, but you were easily the most crooked.
Can we please stick to facts, you have no idea what your talking about. Don't you remember Melbourne being $800k over the cap and still drafting Jeff White using BIG dollars as the lure? I'd suggest that incidence is a lot worse than what Carlton have been accused of doing here.

And while we're on it, do you or anyone else actually know what these charges against Carlton pertain to? No, didnt think so. Let me explain a bit then...Brown and O'Rielly were paid outside the cap as an incentive for them to RETIRE!!! Not exactly cheating or buying success if your paying people to nick off now is it?

Really people, sensationalist melodramatic drama queen carlton bashers, can we please get some degree of realism and accuracy to this discussion...would it at all be possible?

I honestly don't recall hearing about Collingwood ever being caught outside the cap in 1990. Then again, I was only 14 at the time and it was 12 years ago. I would hedge a bet that if we were over, it wouldn't go close to the dishonesty that your dirty club has exhibited!

I think we are running our Club better than anyone else at the time being and we are doing it all above board. I am proud of my Club. You surely cannot be proud of yours!?!
I'm not proud of these actions in any way whatsoever, but they reflect the actions of a man who ran the club in an autocratic manner as his own plaything...and has a history of breaking laws in business. As far as business goes, he's a crook, and I don't think many people would deny it.

But I am extremely proud of the way we as Carlton supporters stood up to the man and forced a change. We'd had enough of his dodgy ways and his robust and abrasive style, and we voted in Carlton One. Now we have a board to be extremely proud of, and if the actions this week of Collo prompting 2 former champions to come clean are anything to go by, then I reckon I've got good reason to be extremely happy about expecting a change of culture at Carlton from top to bottom.
 

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Originally posted by Deej
And while we're on it, do you or anyone else actually know what these charges against Carlton pertain to? No, didnt think so. Let me explain a bit then...Brown and O'Rielly were paid outside the cap as an incentive for them to RETIRE!!! Not exactly cheating or buying success if your paying people to nick off now is it?

Yes it is, as by paying them outside of the cap it left more money in the cap to pay the players they were keeping. Had those payments been included there'd have been less money for the ones that were left meaning some of them would have to be either paid less or delisted.

Is that simple enough for you?
 
Originally posted by FIGJAM


Collingwood have honour. Carlton do not.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you.

THis is a Blight on the game.

Did anyone ever doubt Elliot would cheat to get what he wanted

As for Bradley and Silvagni - they have been tainted by this and Silvagni should not be allowed to be a director of the club.
 
Originally posted by FIGJAM

No, I am not suggesting that, but you were easily the most crooked.

I honestly don't recall hearing about Collingwood ever being caught outside the cap in 1990. Then again, I was only 14 at the time and it was 12 years ago. I would hedge a bet that if we were over, it wouldn't go close to the dishonesty that your dirty club has exhibited!

I think we are running our Club better than anyone else at the time being and we are doing it all above board. I am proud of my Club. You surely cannot be proud of yours!?!


Yes - much to proud of at Collingwood - the club that has turned a known drug dealer, criminal and serial drink driver into a saint - Darren Miilane - what that scumbag did makes salary-cap cheating pale into insignificance - and you have your glorious President making money flogging a book he wrote about how great this guy was !!!
 
Originally posted by AndyLucimitis



Yes - much to proud of at Collingwood - the club that has turned a known drug dealer, criminal and serial drink driver into a saint - Darren Miilane - what that scumbag did makes salary-cap cheating pale into insignificance - and you have your glorious President making money flogging a book he wrote about how great this guy was !!!

can see this reply going places!

cheers!
 
Originally posted by Deej
...Brown and O'Rielly were paid outside the cap as an incentive for them to RETIRE!!! Not exactly cheating or buying success if your paying people to nick off now is it?
Not exactly cheating?? It is precicely the definition of cheating!!!

While other clubs have to carry overpaid, underperformed players still in contract, Carlton were doing crooked deals to assist their list management.

And to AndyLucimitis, please return to de-odourising your Commodore and get the **** off these boards. Millane was a Champion on the field and that's all that matters!! :mad: :mad:
 
I didn't know he was a drug dealer - it appears the cpos didn't either or they would have charged "a know drug dealer"
You would have to barrack for Carlton.
What was the name of the Carlton player that liked to dangle a piece of his anatomy at young girls and boys. Dora something or other.
 
John your right, it is cheating. I'm just trying to shine some much needed perspective onto this thats all.

People are calling for us to lose all early draft picks till 2005, including the top 2 this year, when the only charges laid were for paying over-the-hill hacks to **** off, not much more. We are in a similar situation right now with Mansfield...we dont want him, but he wont **** off because he wants the cash. So we have to keep him on the list. Elliott would've slung him $100k and said f#ck off and dont come back.

My main point is that we need to keep it all in perspective, other clubs HAVE done worse than this yet not had picks 1 and 2 removed for doing it. I can't see how any club could do anything worse than what Melbourne did with Jeff White, yet they weren't penalised anything even approaching picks 1 and 2 in the draft.
 
Originally posted by Deej
People are calling for us to lose all early draft picks till 2005, including the top 2 this year, when the only charges laid were for paying over-the-hill hacks to **** off, not much more.

What they were paid for is irrelevant. The total you paid out those years was over the cap.

We are in a similar situation right now with Mansfield...we dont want him, but he wont **** off because he wants the cash. So we have to keep him on the list. Elliott would've slung him $100k and said f#ck off and dont come back.

In other words, by cheating you freed up a spot on the list for someone the club regarded as being better able to help them succeed.

My main point is that we need to keep it all in perspective, other clubs HAVE done worse than this yet not had picks 1 and 2 removed for doing it. I can't see how any club could do anything worse than what Melbourne did with Jeff White, yet they weren't penalised anything even approaching picks 1 and 2 in the draft.

Melbourne's breech's occured in one year, not a systematic series of breechs over a number of seasons.

Melbourne did not have a suspended sentence hanging over their head

Melbourne co-operated with the investigation.

Spot the differences?
 
Originally posted by Dave
Melbourne's breech's occured in one year, not a systematic series of breechs over a number of seasons.

Melbourne did not have a suspended sentence hanging over their head

Melbourne co-operated with the investigation.

Spot the differences?
Just a sec Dave. Carlton have only been charged with one deliberate year of cheating, and as far as I can see, Collo is being as co-operative as he possibly can be.

Elliott has gone from Carlton, forget the way he did things, this is a new philosophy from Carlton One.
 
FWIW I don't think you'll lose both draft picks. You will definitely lose one.

Also, I don't think what SOS and Bradley are suggesting are "**** off" payments. The surface has been scratched and there is a friggen canyon. We will never know its depth, but I am sure you'd need more than a donkey to descend into its murky pit!

Either way, you have been naughty, now you deserve to suffer.
 
Originally posted by Deej
Just a sec Dave. Carlton have only been charged with one deliberate year of cheating, and as far as I can see, Collo is being as co-operative as he possibly can be.

This is Carlton's third or fourth cap offence, and if what Bradley and Silvagni are alleged to have admitted to is true then the latest breech involves more then one season.

Carlton did not co-operate with the leagues initial investigations which is why it's taken so long to complete. It's good that Collins is being co-operative now but it does not take away from the fact that the previous board did not, and that's caused the current problems re the draft.

Elliott has gone from Carlton, forget the way he did things, this is a new philosophy from Carlton One.

I suppose we should forget the salary cap offences that occured whilst he was there too eh?
 

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