Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[Bunk Moreland]

i was in the process of a response to Yoda_ in the preview thread. I might just leave it here.

The combination of Ryder and Hille was very good. I'm not sure I can split Ryder and Hille as Essendon players.

Ryder should have been approaching Madden by this stage of his career but he never really developed the alpha male personality required to fulfill his potential it also seems that he lost his way at Port. It was something that Sheedy mentioned in the year he coached Ryder, getting him to demand the ball (because the ball should have been in his hands more) but it never really came.

Nevertheless he was still an influential player and one of the best ruckman over the course of his career.

I think it was the inability to consistently exert himself around the ground that sets Ryder back and which was something Hille was generally better at. Hille started quite slowly and then really became a very good follower in about 2005 (good enough to be given the captaincy in the absence of Lloyd). He wasn't a great tap ruck, like Ryder, his impact tended to be around the ground and throwing his weight around in close.

Just as a point of reference, here is a comparison of the basic stats for both: https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...d2=16&type=A&pid1=348&pid2=1613&fid1=C&fid2=C

The year by year averages tell a bit more of the story.

David Hille of the Essendon Bombers Career AFL Stats

David Hille of Essendon Bombers career AFL statistics

www.footywire.com

Patrick Ryder of the St Kilda Saints Career AFL Stats

Patrick Ryder of St Kilda Saints career AFL statistics

www.footywire.com

Unfortunately Ryder's development was stymied by that fine Essendon tradition of refusing to play players in their natural positions. Sheedy - who by that stage spent more time selecting his shiraz than his team - thought it best to develop him at ****ing CHB, before occasionally playing him forward. He simply drifted out of games in both spots. Knights kept this up, and only discovered his natural talent as a full-time ruckman by accident when Hille went down early on ANZAC Day 2009, leaving him no choice but to stick Paddy in the ruck for the day - where he duly dominated.

A young Ryder was the archetypal modern ruckman - quick, good hands and could leap over buildings. His only real weakness was an obvious lack of concentration, for which the tonic is conveniently to play him on the ball where he's always in the game. Had he been rucking from Day 1 as he should have been, we'd have been treated to a much longer physical and performance peak. I think Sheeds would probably be better looking in the mirror if discussing Ryder's shortcomings.

Unfortunately that peak started a couple of years too late due to us ****ing around with his development, but by the time he went to Port he was the best ruckman in the game, comfortably. He missed 2016 through the ban and stepped straight back into the All Aust team in 2017. After that injuries took hold.

Anyway he's onto club #3 now and working ok in tandem with a young bloke, while at Essendon we're busy playing footballers absolutely anywhere but their best positions.

 

[citizen-erased]

Unfortunately Ryder's development was stymied by that fine Essendon tradition of refusing to play players in their natural positions. Sheedy - who by that stage spent more time selecting his shiraz than his team - thought it best to develop him at ******* CHB, before occasionally playing him forward. He simply drifted out of games in both spots. Knights kept this up, and only discovered his natural talent as a full-time ruckman by accident when Hille went down early on ANZAC Day 2009, leaving him no choice but to stick Paddy in the ruck for the day - where he duly dominated.

A young Ryder was the archetypal modern ruckman - quick, good hands and could leap over buildings. His only real weakness was an obvious lack of concentration, for which the tonic is conveniently to play him on the ball where he's always in the game. Had he been rucking from Day 1 as he should have been, we'd have been treated to a much longer physical and performance peak. I think Sheeds would probably be better looking in the mirror if discussing Ryder's shortcomings.

Unfortunately that peak started a couple of years too late due to us ******* around with his development, but by the time he went to Port he was the best ruckman in the game, comfortably. He missed 2016 through the ban and stepped straight back into the All Aust team in 2017. After that injuries took hold.

Anyway he's onto club #3 now and working ok in tandem with a young bloke, while at Essendon we're busy playing footballers absolutely anywhere but their best positions.

we should put this post in the EFC charter.

so accurate

**** Ryder was a good ruckman.
Outstanding selection. Would be the 2nd best player behind Pendles from that draft.

 

[ant555]

Unfortunately Ryder's development was stymied by that fine Essendon tradition of refusing to play players in their natural positions. Sheedy - who by that stage spent more time selecting his shiraz than his team - thought it best to develop him at ******* CHB, before occasionally playing him forward. He simply drifted out of games in both spots. Knights kept this up, and only discovered his natural talent as a full-time ruckman by accident when Hille went down early on ANZAC Day 2009, leaving him no choice but to stick Paddy in the ruck for the day - where he duly dominated.

A young Ryder was the archetypal modern ruckman - quick, good hands and could leap over buildings. His only real weakness was an obvious lack of concentration, for which the tonic is conveniently to play him on the ball where he's always in the game. Had he been rucking from Day 1 as he should have been, we'd have been treated to a much longer physical and performance peak. I think Sheeds would probably be better looking in the mirror if discussing Ryder's shortcomings.

Unfortunately that peak started a couple of years too late due to us ******* around with his development, but by the time he went to Port he was the best ruckman in the game, comfortably. He missed 2016 through the ban and stepped straight back into the All Aust team in 2017. After that injuries took hold.

Anyway he's onto club #3 now and working ok in tandem with a young bloke, while at Essendon we're busy playing footballers absolutely anywhere but their best positions.

Reading this has actually reminded me we do actually have this tradition of playing a lot of players out of position no matter who the coach is. Kepler Bradley was another. Played him at CHB where his dodgy kicking and decision making got exposed yet in the VFL he kept carving it up at CHF taking marks and kicking goals.
Carlisle left because he wanted to play back.
Stienburg drafted as a forward and played as an under sized KPD.
The moves that won us the 84 GF have proven to be our nightmare since.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Carlisle was a crap forward. Should never have been moved.

Really though I think he left because he was unhappy post saga.

Always seemed a bit of a boofhead. Sticky hands but.

 

[11kgm]

Carlisle was a crap forward. Should never have been moved.

Really though I think he left because he was unhappy post saga.

Always seemed a bit of a boofhead. Sticky hands but.

and a coke head glad we got rid of him

 

[Vander18]

Being a bit kind tbh. Since Madden, the only real top line ruckman we’ve had was Ryder for a year or two before he left. The rest have been solid and serviceable at best. Salmon was very good at the Hawks but barely played in the ruck for us.

All (bar Somerville and probably Alessio) we’re good to very good at their best. As a sequence over 30 years it’s pretty good.

 

[Vander18]

Carlisle was a crap forward. Should never have been moved.

Really though I think he left because he was unhappy post saga.

Always seemed a bit of a boofhead. Sticky hands but.

Carlisle was all between the ears - could have been a dominant forward if he had the mindset of Hooker.

That said.....what could have been? If only we knew earlier that Hooker was very good forward. Would have had a spine of prime Hurley, Carlisle, Hooker and a just entering prime JD

 

[eth-dog]

All (bar Somerville and probably Alessio) we’re good to very good at their best. As a sequence over 30 years it’s pretty good.

Alessio was a good ruck IMO. Nothing brilliant but solid.

 

[Vander18]

Alessio was a good ruck IMO. Nothing brilliant but solid.

He was Ok - could drift forward and kick a goal too. Probably shades Somerville but behind the others I think.
Somerville probably a better pure ruck actually - his tap world was good.

 

[BrunoV]

Carlisle was all between the ears - could have been a dominant forward if he had the mindset of Hooker.

That said.....what could have been? If only we knew earlier that Hooker was very good forward. Would have had a spine of prime Hurley, Carlisle, Hooker and a just entering prime JD

I'm always inclined to give Carlisle the benefit of the doubt.

Just too much going on around an immature kid who finally found his feet at AFL level and then got moved to hold a forward line together in 2014 when scoring wasn't as much of a focus as shutting games down.

I think people forget how bad our scoring had become.

He was recruited as a forward. Played his initial games as a forward and if you could look it up effectively you'd find plenty of sentiment to the effect that Gumbleton had fallen well behind Carlisle as a forward (and this was before Gumby was completely shot). So I don't see him being played out of position for a second. What genuine swingman looks better forward than back? They all look better back because it's easier.

 

[Vander18]

I'm always inclined to give Carlisle the benefit of the doubt.

Just too much going on around an immature kid who finally found his feet at AFL level and then got moved to hold a forward line together in 2014 when scoring wasn't as much of a focus as shutting games down.

I think people forget how bad our scoring had become.

He was recruited as a forward. Played his initial games as a forward and if you could look it up effectively you'd find plenty of sentiment to the effect that Gumbleton had fallen well behind Carlisle as a forward (and this was before Gumby was completely shot). So I don't him being played out of position for a second. What genuine swingman looks better forward than back? They all look better back because it's easier.

It’s all kind of a moot point - if we had just known that Hooker could clunk it like nobody else and was good for 40-50 goals a year back then, Carlisle could have just stayed back and it’s a non-issue.

Distinctly remember Yaso55 suggesting Hooker play forward (before we tried it) and people thinking he was crazy. Who bloody knew???

Hooker and JD could have been the best tall forward pairing in the comp and Hurley and Carlisle the same or close to it down back.

 

[FrankGrimes]

We should be chasing seir from
Collingwood, can’t get a game in there strong mid group.. would complement us nicely IMO

 

[Yoda_]

i was in the process of a response to Yoda_ in the preview thread. I might just leave it here.

The combination of Ryder and Hille was very good. I'm not sure I can split Ryder and Hille as Essendon players.

I just had a quick look at who Paddy was co existing with in his time at Essendon. Only maybe Laycock was on par with Paddy as a marking option, perhaps throw in Laycock who was treakle slow.


In the years Paddy was #1 (09 - 12) he was right up there with some of the best rucks in the comp imho. He was obviously the better marking option than TBC thus was moved fwd.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Reading this has actually reminded me we do actually have this tradition of playing a lot of players out of position no matter who the coach is. Kepler Bradley was another. Played him at CHB where his dodgy kicking and decision making got exposed yet in the VFL he kept carving it up at CHF taking marks and kicking goals.
Carlisle left because he wanted to play back.
Stienburg drafted as a forward and played as an under sized KPD.
The moves that won us the 84 GF have proven to be our nightmare since.

Half back flanker Orazio will kick 50 at his new club next year. It’s almost inevitable.

 

[11kgm]

Half back flanker Orazio will kick 50 at his new club next year. It’s almost inevitable.

Laverde to become a decent third tall at a club like Bulldogs see Crameri

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Laverde to become a decent third tall at a club like Bulldogs see Crameri

nah it’s the out of position thing - Laverde will become the inside mid we’ve been looking for since Jobe. At another club.

 

[FlyingV]

We should be chasing seir from
Collingwood, can’t get a game in there strong mid group.. would complement us nicely IMO

Or Brodie from GC, his name always gets thrown up and is contracted but doesn’t seem to be getting a run for GC

 

[Jobe_zaka]

I haven't read read the rest of the thread so sorry if this has been spoken about. Looking at our need for inside midfielders and the decline of fantasia. The reluctance to trade fantasia, an injury prone forward for wines ( with us giving a second rounder imo) looks to be a big mistake. Regardless of wines average performance this year, you cant deny he would be exactly what we need.

Our inside midfield is a joke, while our outside midfield is great (zerret, mcgrath). Mcgrath won inside ball in under 18s vs small kids. You cant expect that to translate to the afl when big men are his competition. Hes rushed because he doesnt feel comfortable playing in the congestion and rarely uses his amazing speed to good use because we are using him in an area he is not best suited to. I am disappointed that the list management team didn't allow fantasia to leave and get wines who obviously doesn't want to be there to our club.

 

[Bombers36]

Our list needs a complete overhaul...!! Theres a core group of players still contracted that aren't going anywhere;-

Heppell, Hurley, Stringer, Draper, Hooker, Jones, Tippa, Redman, Smith & Shiel

Then there's 3 out of contract at the end of this year (which really is only a couple of months away) that I'd really want to keep;-

McGrath Ridley & Saad

Others coming out of contract who still may have some currency are;-

Langford, Laverde, Daniher, McKernan, Ham & Snelling

Half of those guys we should trade if we can - Daniher, McKernan & Laverde are the ones I'd be trying to move on and get another forward or inside mid

Then theres 10 other players who have little of no currency at all that will be out of contract;-

Begley, Bellcho, Crauford, Gleeson, Stewart, Hibberd, Mosquito, Gown, Townsend & Mutch

In reality most of these guys are list cloggers - maybe keep Mosquito, Gown, Crauford & Hibberd for depth but the rest should be moved on


Outside of uncontracted players theres others we should seriously look to trade;-

Fantasia - his body is unraveling almost as quickly as his confidence - only 33 games in the last 3 years we should try get something for him while we can..
Francis - solid player - but with the emergence of Ridley & Zerk may be surplus to requirements we need to try trade him while his currency his high IMO
Parish or Merrett - both good players - but I'd swap one of these smaller bodied outside mids for a decent inside mid any day - i.e. Wines
The Irish guys - McKenna is a gun and we must try keep him - McQuillan and McBride good enough for depth but all 3 could just leave in a couple of months and not come back...


So in my opinion - there's 23 players in bold who I'd say at this point will definitely be on our list in 2021 - any player not in bold or who I have not mentioned should be up for grabs and we need to get creative with our recruiting to bring across some solid inside mids and key forward/ruck type players

 

[vass44]

I agree our list needs an overhaul- but if we didn’t have so many players out injured our best 22 is still top 8 quality possibly better;-

Hooker Hurley Ambrose
McKenna Ridley Saad
Merrett Heppell Cutler
Tippa Daniher Fanta
Stewart Stringer Smith

Draper Shiel McGrath

Langford Parish Francis Redman

10 of those players missing from the side that takes on the Crows today...





On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[citizen-erased]

I agree our list needs an overhaul- but if we didn’t have so many players out injured our best 22 is still top 8 quality possibly better;-

Hooker Hurley Ambrose
McKenna Ridley Saad
Merrett Heppell Cutler
Tippa Daniher Fanta
Stewart Stringer Smith

Draper Shiel McGrath

Langford Parish Francis Redman

10 of those players missing from the side that takes on the Crows today...





On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

That team
Though I'd say ham is ahead of cutler.
That really is quite depressing to see.

Does highlight the key issues
-no depth
-#1 ruckman has played 0 games of AFL.

 

[CBombers17]

Our current ladder position (12th) is a pretty good reflection of where we are at overall IMO. Maybe drop another spot to Melbourne and go to 13th.

Sure we get a few good players back and maybe go up a spot or 2 but let's not pretend the better sides don't also have injuries.

 

[Yoda_]

Our current ladder position (12th) is a pretty good reflection of where we are at overall IMO. Maybe drop another spot to Melbourne and go to 13th.

Sure we get a few good players back and maybe go up a spot or 2 but let's not pretend the better sides don't also have injuries.

We win by 10 goals and other results go our way and it’s feasible we go right back up to 4th or 5th.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yoda_]

I agree our list needs an overhaul- but if we didn’t have so many players out injured our best 22 is still top 8 quality possibly better;-

Hooker Hurley Ambrose
McKenna Ridley Saad
Merrett Heppell Cutler
Tippa Daniher Fanta
Stewart Stringer Smith

Draper Shiel McGrath

Langford Parish Francis Redman

10 of those players missing from the side that takes on the Crows today...





On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Hit nail on the head there. Get 90% of our players on the park and we go from a 10 - 15th spot on the ladder to a 4th - 7th ladder position.

The development of our younger guys is crucial
But one good and smart off season can sling shot us back up the ladder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[eth-dog]

We win by 10 goals and other results go our way and it’s feasible we go right back up to 4th or 5th.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If:

We win by 5-6 goals
West Coast wins by 1-2 goals
Freo wins

We're 4th. If Freo loses we still move to 5th.