The 2017 Rolling All-Australian Thread

[Scotland]

And none of it will change the fact that you are are a watch fantasy stats more closely than you watch football.

 

[Jootube]

Not sure about all the malice.

The onus should be on people to argue why Buddy makes the team ahead of Daniher/Kennedy.

 

[Jobe Watson]

you are are a watch fantasy stats

u wot.

I suppose when you can't argue against a basic fact, all you have left is a cheap comment. Kennedy's goal rate vs. bottom 10 teams is far higher than vs. top 8 teams - fact. Rationalise it any way you want.

Not sure about all the malice.

The onus should be on people to argue why Buddy makes the team ahead of Daniher/Kennedy.

He shouldn't. His form has really dropped off in the last 3 weeks. Daniher is a lock at the moment, Kennedy has been more impressive in the games he's played. He could still make the team but it shouldn't be at the expense of Kennedy or Joe.

 

[Ishmael_]

Likewise, why is Buddy a certainty to some?

He kicks goals from outside 50... Which apparently are worth 9 points in the premiership season.

Perhaps it's the nickname. Let's start calling JKK 'Juicy', imagine the hype.

For the record I'd have Daniher and Juicy in my AA.

 

[Checkered]

What relevance is the discrepancy of who he kicks goals against?

It might be a thing if he only average 1.5 goals v top 8 sides but he still averages 2.6 which is good enough to put him in the top 3 averages of anyone else v all teams. The fact that he's elite in goals per game against lesser teams shouldn't be used against him lol

 

[Scotland]

What relevance is the discrepancy of who he kicks goals against?

It might be a thing if he only average 1.5 goals v top 8 sides but he still averages 2.6 which is good enough to put him in the top 3 averages of anyone else v all teams. The fact that he's elite in goals per game against lesser teams shouldn't be used against him lol

It's meaningless without context, to which Jobey is oblivious.

u wot.

I suppose when you can't argue against a basic fact, all you have left is a cheap comment. Kennedy's goal rate vs. bottom 10 teams is far higher than vs. top 8 teams - fact. Rationalise it any way you want.

A cheap comment is all a feeble argument is worth.

Kennedy "only" kicks 2.6 goals a game against the current top 8 sides. So what? Daniher has 21 goals in 9 losses compared to 35 in 10 wins, and 10 goals in 5 games outside Victoria compared to 46 in 14 at the MCG/Etihad.

Anyone can copy and paste stat sheets.

 

[Bails97]

B: Laird Rance Yeo
HB: Docherty Hurley Hibberd
C: Kelly T.Mitchell Merrett
HF: Gray Franklin Zorko
F: Betts Kennedy Daniher
R: Jacobs Dangerfield Martin
I: Oliver M.Crouch Bontempelli Ryder
Unlucky: Walker, Talia, Sloane, Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer, Adams, Howe, Fantasia, Neale, Selwood, Shiel, Ward, Ablett, Brown, Cotchin, J.Riewoldt, Ross, Roberton, Kennedy, Grundy, Gaff

 

[Happy Mastenator]

To be fair, Daniher spends 17% of his TOG playing as a follower. His role is to do more than just take marks and kick goals.


No doubt it has a lot to do with team performance. And I'm not trying to argue that he is exclusively a flat-track player who only kicks goals against shit teams. He's a gun player who has put in star performances against top teams in big games.

But the truth is he kicks far more goals on average against bottom 10 teams than he does against top 8 teams. It's just an objective fact. The stats were posted before, but out of the top 4 leading Coleman Medal chances (Daniher, Kennedy, Franklin, Brown) Kennedy has far and away the biggest discrepancy between goals vs. bottom 10 and top 8 teams. It doesn't necessarily detract from him as a player - I actually wish Daniher could kick more goals against bottom 10 teams so that we didn't have to scrape to wins against shit minnows like Carlton - but it has to be acknowledged.

Daniher, and Frankin and Brown (just) are the only three players who average more goals per game across the entire season than JK against top 8 teams.

 

[Jobe Watson]

What relevance is the discrepancy of who he kicks goals against?

It's relevant to the claim that Kennedy has been kicking bags against lower opposition, which is how this started.

And considering Kennedy's spot in the AA team is tentative at best and he needs to keep up his impressive goal kicking rate to maintain his spot (after missing 5 games of football), his varying record against different levels of opposition is worth looking at. 2/3 of West Coast's remaining opponents are the top 2 teams, but an expected feast against lowly Carlton this week could solidify his spot.

Kennedy "only" kicks 2.6 goals a game against the current top 8 sides. So what?

That was never the argument. 2.6 goals against the top 8 is a decent strike rate.

Daniher has 21 goals in 9 losses compared to 35 in 10 wins, and 10 goals in 5 games outside Victoria compared to 46 in 14 at the MCG/Etihad.

Anyone can copy and paste stat sheets.

And if you wanted to make the argument that Joe is better in wins than in losses, or plays better in Melbourne than anywhere else, those stats would be entirely relevant.

I think WCE supporters have just gotten so tired of their team and Kennedy being called "flat-track bullies" (which I never said, by the way), wrongly or rightly, that they're becoming overly defensive to any slight criticism of their star man. He tends to dominate against poorer opposition; has done for years now. Fact. It doesn't take anything away from him, he's a star forward. But it's worth pointing out.

 

[Checkered]

There's such a small gap between 5th and 11th that the stat is near on irrelevant. What's the difference between kicking 5 at home v 5th place Port or kicking 5 v 11th place St Kilda away?

You wouldn't look at either game and think 'gee that's way more impressive that he kicked all those goals on Port would you? Weird and irrelevant argument to make.

 

[Checkered]

If you wanted to make a decent argument youd correlate something like score percentages. 5 goals when your team only kicks 7 is significantly more impressive than 5 goals when your teams kicks 22.

Maybe even F50 entries would make a better argument than the black and white split of top 8 sides when in reality there isn't much separating the 7 teams that occupy the spots near that cut off.

 

[Jobe Watson]

There's such a small gap between 5th and 11th that the stat is near on irrelevant. What's the difference between kicking 5 at home v 5th place Port or kicking 5 v 11th place St Kilda away?

You wouldn't look at either game and think 'gee that's way more impressive that he kicked all those goals on Port would you? Weird and irrelevant argument to make.

I think kicking 5 goals against the 3rd best defense in the league would be slightly more impressive than kicking 5 against the 10th best. And considering that 7 of the current top 8 teams also happen to have 7 of the best 8 defenses in terms of Points Against, I think it is relevant.

 

[Checkered]

I think kicking 5 goals against the 3rd best defense in the league would be slightly more impressive than kicking 5 against the 10th best. And considering that 7 of the current top 8 teams also happen to have 7 of the best 8 defenses in terms of Points Against, I think it is relevant.

See now that stat is more relevant but it essentially boils down to 'the best forward in the league doesn't absolutely dominate the best defences in the league' which is still mostly unimportant

 

[Scotland]

It's relevant to the claim that Kennedy has been kicking bags against lower opposition, which is how this started.

And considering Kennedy's spot in the AA team is tentative at best and he needs to keep up his impressive goal kicking rate to maintain his spot (after missing 5 games of football), his varying record against different levels of opposition is worth looking at. 2/3 of West Coast's remaining opponents are the top 2 teams, but an expected feast against lowly Carlton this week could solidify his spot.

Nearly a goal per game ahead of every single player in the comp, 2nd in the Coleman after missing 5 games = 'tentative at best'. **** me.

That was never the argument. 2.6 goals against the top 8 is a decent strike rate.

So what is the argument? The only reason you are highlighting it is to mark Kennedy down, don't pretend otherwise.

I think WCE supporters have just gotten so tired of their team and Kennedy being called "flat-track bullies" (which I never said, by the way), wrongly or rightly, that they're becoming overly defensive to any slight criticism of their star man. He tends to dominate against poorer opposition; has done for years now. Fact. It doesn't take anything away from him, he's a star forward. But it's worth pointing out.

Well, you got one thing right.

As above, the only reason you are highlighting it is to mark Kennedy down, don't pretend otherwise.

 

[Scotland]

I think kicking 5 goals against the 3rd best defense in the league would be slightly more impressive than kicking 5 against the 10th best. And considering that 7 of the current top 8 teams also happen to have 7 of the best 8 defenses in terms of Points Against, I think it is relevant.

More cherry picking stats.

Collingwood concede 90 points a game and conceded 85 against us. Kennedy contributed 6.1.37 of that 85.

Port concede 79 points a game and conceded 131 against Essendon. Daniher contributed 4.0.24 of that 131.

One gets filed under 'feasting', the other under 'goals against top 8 sides'. Do you see how pointless these stats are yet?

St Kilda concede 88 points a game and conceded 95 against us. Kennedy contributed 5.1.31 of that 95.

Geelong concede 86 points a game and conceded 110 against Essendon. Daniher contributed 5.2.32 of that 110.

Averages schmaverages.

 

[billy fragos]

Daniher, and Frankin and Brown (just) are the only three players who average more goals per game across the entire season than JK against top 8 teams.

This just isn't true. Without looking through stats of every player I found that Walker for instance, who you didn't mention, kicks 3.5 gpg vs top 8 sides. Better average than Kennedy.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

This just isn't true. Without looking through stats of every player I found that Walker for instance, who you didn't mention, kicks 3.5 gpg vs top 8 sides. Better average than Kennedy.

Try reading my comment again "Across the entire season" isn't referring to their efforts against the top 8.

 

[calyam]

Kennedy is a 50 - 60 goals a season type against the top 8 teams and a 100 goals a season type against the weaker teams.

It's a massive discrepancy and one that isn't apparent among the other leading forwards. It also won't be a consideration when it comes to picking the All Australian team.

 

[eaglespremiers]

his varying record against different levels of opposition is worth looking at.

Kennedy is a 50 - 60 goals a season type against the top 8 teams and a 100 goals a season type against the weaker teams.

It's a massive discrepancy and one that isn't apparent among the other leading forwards. It also won't be a consideration when it comes to picking the All Australian team.

Shouldn't the converse be true as well?
That good forwards ought to be kicking bigger bags against lesser/weaker opponents and the fact that most average significantly less than Kennedy makes you wonder about their form when they have no excuse not to be performing at their optimum.

 

[JDavey]

Kennedy is a 50 - 60 goals a season type against the top 8 teams and a 100 goals a season type against the weaker teams.

It's a massive discrepancy and one that isn't apparent among the other leading forwards. It also won't be a consideration when it comes to picking the All Australian team.

Try comparing % of teams score for Kennedy v top 8 / bot 10 and you'll see he is miles ahead of the comp. Hes the best stay home forward in the league.

 

[calyam]

Shouldn't the converse be true as well?
That good forwards ought to be kicking bigger bags against lesser/weaker opponents and the fact that most average significantly less than Kennedy makes you wonder about their form when they have no excuse not to be performing at their optimum.

Are you getting dizzy from all this spin? Eagle fan's would be better off just accepting the statistics or drawing on stats from previous years that contradict the 'flat track bullies' narrative.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Are you getting dizzy from all this spin? Eagle fan's would be better off just accepting the statistics or drawing on stats from previous years that contradict the 'flat track bullies' narrative.

Sure, resort to an ad hominem attack.
Either discuss each argument on its merits or comment somewhere else.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

It's meaningless without context, to which Jobey is oblivious.



A cheap comment is all a feeble argument is worth.

Kennedy "only" kicks 2.6 goals a game against the current top 8 sides. So what? Daniher has 21 goals in 9 losses compared to 35 in 10 wins, and 10 goals in 5 games outside Victoria compared to 46 in 14 at the MCG/Etihad.

Anyone can copy and paste stat sheets.

It has to be acknowledged.

 

[calyam]

Sure, resort to an ad hominem attack.
Either discuss each argument on its merits or comment somewhere else.

Faced with an argument without merit I provided a way to prove his detractors wrong. The phrase you were looking for was 'thank you'.

Crunch some numbers and provide evidence rather than spin.

 

[kaiserchief13]

Continue to ignore evidence that dates back years.

Kennedy plays far better against poorer opposition. 4.75 goals against bottom 10 vs. 2.6 goals against top 8 this season. He's objectively a gun player, but don't ignore the obvious.

Yeah so when the midfield is up against a better midfield and he doesn't get opportunity how can he score goals when the ball isn't in the forward line?