List Mgmt. The 2024 Draft (Nov 20/21)

[Keys]

Quick links

• Player contract status
• Draft prospect video highlights (thanks to noobermensch)
• Provisional 2025 Draft order

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Drafted

• Bo Allan - Pick 16
• Jobe Shanahan - Pick 30
• Tom Gross - Pick 46
• Lucca Grego - Pick 48
• Hamish Davis - Pick 65
• Malakai Champion - Cat B

List Spots Available

• One on either main OR rookie list to be filled as a SSP selection following train on assessments

Trade and draft period

In: F1, F2, F3, Baker, Owies, Graham, Allan, Shanahan, Gross, Grego, Davis, Champion
Out: 3, 63, F3, F4, Barrass, Darling

 

[stallon]

This is a nonsense argument.

At the end of the day we won 2 more games in 2024, but had more 100 point losses so it's hardly a big difference. In fact it seems like being a "much better side" meant we kicked a grand total of 29 extra goals for the season. Whats that a tad over 1 more a game?

The Eagles in 2023 had no trouble scoring and for the most part, the defeats came from conceding great numbers of goals due to missing players down back.

If you look at the output of Allen, Waterman, Darling, Cripps, J Williams and Ryan across 2023/2024, the evidence suggests Allen kicked his 53 being the primary focal point and Waterman kicked his 53 in a team that shared the goals around.

Waterman almost certainly had less opportunity than Allen the year before, most likely because he would have spent far less time just sitting at ff given his superior work rate.

So 2024 Jack kicks same as Oscar 2023 [in 3 less games]

However, in 2024 v 2023

Cripps kicks +11
Ryan +9,
Jack Williams + 11
JD goes slightly backwards -4.
Then Oscar kicks + 9 compared to Waterman 2023 [if we say for arguments sake they swapped roles]

Rough math, the main non full forwards kicked an extra 36 goals compared to last year while the team overall was up 29 goals total. Can't be bothered looking into Long v Dewar and Maric stats and whether midfield kicked more or less and all that.

It's improved forward output but only highlights the fact that the forward line with Oscar in 23 was more one dimensional than it was with Waterman. [Or that comparatively Oscar played more stay at home than Waterman meaning the other forwards were less likely to be hit up as targets]

Im not going to go into each point and research it all, but we got way better inside 50s this year, and we moved the ball quicker, which worked to Watermans advantage as he was very good in 1v1s and could work his opponent up and down the ground to create space.
We had a higher % of effective inside 50s, a lot of them off the back of Yeo and Reids stoppage work which we didnt have last year.

Its not as simple as "waterman did it in less games and wasnt the only target"

 

[sharps24]

There is room in the forward line for three talls, particularly when a) Waterman ain’t that tall, and b) JWilliams gives us a second ruck option. How you make that work is why coaches get paid the big bucks.

Coach might just see it another way, he's openly stated he wants us to be a harder running side and we traded in 3 blokes who can play half forward and we have another best 22 player in Hewett coming back from injury also suited to playing there. More mobile set up might see the 2nd ruck might find himself spending less time resting forward and more time playing off the bench. Whether the new game plan is good or bad for J Will who knows.

 

[stallon]

There is room in the forward line for three talls, particularly when a) Waterman ain’t that tall, and b) JWilliams gives us a second ruck option. How you make that work is why coaches get paid the big bucks.

Do you mean 3 as in Allen, Waterman and J. Williams?

Thats an entirely normal forward line anyway.

Adding in Archer is the issue, we couldnt work it with Darling so idk how we might work it with Archer

 

[Goroyals22]

[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji6][emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]" data-quote="sharps" data-source="post: 0" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

If all are fit B Williams will likely play ahead of both of them.

On what basis? Jacks a better forward, Flynn is a better ruckman… in fact jacks a better ruckman


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Barrybran]

There is room in the forward line for three talls, particularly when a) Waterman ain’t that tall, and b) JWilliams gives us a second ruck option. How you make that work is why coaches get paid the big bucks.

People were arguing that we were too tall up forward last year. There will be games for it but I would think a ruck, two tall forwards and one on the bench should get us through most games, leaving the extra place for a runner.

 

[Barrybran]

Do you mean 3 as in Allen, Waterman and J. Williams?

Thats an entirely normal forward line anyway.

Adding in Archer is the issue, we couldnt work it with Darling so idk how we might work it with Archer

Archer either competes with J.Williams, competes with Allen, becomes a ruck / defender, or he gets traded. It will be interesting to see how he's used in 2025.

 

[mattyc75]

He's easily the better option, comparing Jakes 2024 to Oscars 2023 is pretty wild. Both finished on 53 goals but Jake did it with 3 fewer games, and basically smashed Oscar in every other stat along the way.

Jake Waterman and Oscar Allen AFL Stats Comparison

Jake Waterman and Oscar Allen AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

I hope Oscar can continue to improve his tank after coming back from injury last year and can play CHF to a high standard. Otherwise the reid and Williams will be waiting.


On SM-S921B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[BartBart]

Damn, not signing that 1 random Cat B irishman has probably cost us multiple flags i reckon.

As a matter of interest have we ever tried/investigated a Gaelic Football player (for the men's team)?

 

[Keys]

As a matter of interest have we ever tried/investigated a Gaelic Football player (for the men's team)?

Paddy Brophy dislikes this post

 

[Godfather32]

Archer either competes with J.Williams, competes with Allen, becomes a ruck / defender, or he gets traded. It will be interesting to see how he's used in 2025.

I actually reckon Jack Williams ends up as a key defender, he's the most versatile of all our young talls and I think he could end up finding his permanent spot back there

 

[eaglevision]

I actually reckon Jack Williams ends up as a key defender, he's the most versatile of all our young talls and I think he could end up finding his permanent spot back there

Would be nice if there was an obvious shift to KPD but there is no way we could play Jack and Harry together as our two KPDs with their lack of speed. We’d get murdered on the lead.

 

[Godfather32]

Would be nice if there was an obvious shift to KPD but there is no way we could play Jack and Harry together as our two KPDs with their lack of speed. We’d get murdered on the lead.

True, Harry needs to have an injury-free season to lock down that spot though.
I just think we'll end up playing Jack there at some point out of necessity and he'll lock down the spot for himself.

 

[Kegs15]

I actually reckon Jack Williams ends up as a key defender, he's the most versatile of all our young talls and I think he could end up finding his permanent spot back there

Disagree IMO on that being worthwhile (though I do think he could do it). Have posted this before but genuinely good ruck/fwds who can actually do both comfortably without the side losing momentum are rare. Can be a big part of premiership pushes like with Jackson, D.Cameron and Daniher. Other sides tend to play 2 rucks and lose the extra run/the spare just crowds the forward line without doing anything, or throw one of their tall forwards in to ruck (like when we used to throw Allen in there) and ruin their game/lose momentum. I think JWilliams could really be excellent at that split role and allow us to play two other set-and-forget KPFs and one true ruck and have a really good balance. He's not got the high end outlier traits to be elite in either position but has the versatility and footy sense to be elite in a dual position sense I think.

The #1 ruck position itself is an issue that we haven't yet sorted, as is what we're going to do with Archer Reid, but they're things we'll have to work around no matter what we do with JWilliams. As for our key back situation I'd rather we do things like lock in Barnett/Jamieson for that as a permanent role whether in WAFL or AFL, bulk up Bazzo, pick up a PSD or for the long-term draft someone. Key backs you can find from other sources and unique places but I just think JWilliams has shown a great trajectory in a position that's underratedly hard to fill, we'd be silly to mess with that.

 

[eaglevision]

True, Harry needs to have an injury-free season to lock down that spot though.
I just think we'll end up playing Jack there at some point out of necessity and he'll lock down the spot for himself.

If he moved back there it would push Harry out leaving Gov, JWilliams and hopefully Maric as a 3rd tall. Would be great to have the ruck flexibility in the D50 and allow us to play Oscar, Jake and Archer together.

Don’t mind the sound of it but have no idea about his defensive craft. If it’s anything like Billiams’s forward craft we may as well not bother.

 

[KERRPOW]

Waterman did it in a much better side than Allen had.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Jilliams has 2 extra seasons on Archer Reid. That's a fair bit of development, especially for a tall.

Big boy Archie is gonna have to cut his teeth for a while at WAFL level yet. Providing we have a competitive team for him, there should be no reason why he can't continue to develop against undersized WAFL defenders and kick some bags at that level first. When he strings together a stretch of games as the most dominant forward on the ground and having an impact, we can then worry about how he fits into the AFL side.

Until that happens, it's a bit of a moot issue.

 

[ronpingwins]

https://archive.md/DJna5

Suggests St Kilda/Dees/Tigers all super keen on Allan and probably won't be available for us. Not sure if it's actual intel or just guessing based on the WA talent manager interview.

 

[Godfather32]

If he moved back there it would push Harry out leaving Gov, JWilliams and hopefully Maric as a 3rd tall. Would be great to have the ruck flexibility in the D50 and allow us to play Oscar, Jake and Archer together.

Don’t mind the sound of it but have no idea about his defensive craft. If it’s anything like Billiams’s forward craft we may as well not bother.

Isn't his nickname around the team The Big Fundamental? I'm only guessing, but I think a player with sound fundamentals could play pretty much anywhere with a bit of practice. I'm just trying to find a way to shoehorn him and Archer (who I'm also big on) into the team anyway, probably won't happen.

 

[ep2018]

https://archive.md/DJna5

Suggests St Kilda/Dees/Tigers all super keen on Allan and probably won't be available for us. Not sure if it's actual intel or just guessing based on the WA talent manager interview.

I wonder if this is mind games, trying to get us to trade up for him. I rather we pick someone else tho and not just the WA guy.

 

[Keys]

https://archive.md/DJna5

Suggests St Kilda/Dees/Tigers all super keen on Allan and probably won't be available for us. Not sure if it's actual intel or just guessing based on the WA talent manager interview.

Sounds like the WA talent manager talking him up rather than specific intel from the clubs

What needs to be kept in mind is that Richmond (6,10,11), Melbourne (5,9) and St Kilda (7,8) own all the picks from 5-11 and are likely considering the same players. So they’re unlikely to be saying anything that might give away who they want most or are likely to select

If Cal Twomey gets that part of the draft right with his phantom he’ll be either very well connected or have had an incredibly lucky guess

 

[sharps24]

Im not going to go into each point and research it all, but we got way better inside 50s this year, and we moved the ball quicker, which worked to Watermans advantage as he was very good in 1v1s and could work his opponent up and down the ground to create space.
We had a higher % of effective inside 50s, a lot of them off the back of Yeo and Reids stoppage work which we didnt have last year.

Its not as simple as "waterman did it in less games and wasnt the only target"

Agree to disagree, it's clear nothing will convince you Waterman had an objectively better year.

Just for my own interest I looked into i50s, marks and goals and the like.

We had 38 more marks inside 50 in 2024, from 61 more entries. It's not a lot really. Whats wild is, scored 176 more points from those extra entries, meaning for every 2 additional entries this year we gained a goal. I'm not convinced the quality of the entries was all that much different, something else was going on. In 2024 40 less i50's from Kelly 60 more from Yeo, 50 less from Shuey and Hurn, 60 from Reid. Not exactly apples and oranges in the delivery stakes, more like much of a muchness.

Team took a mark every 4.5 entries in 2024, a mark every 5 entries in 2023. Oscar took about 1 mark per 20 entries in 23 and 1 mark in every 18 entries in 24. Jake took one for every 14 entries in 24. Jake's ratio of contested marks was higher, took 1 more contested grab from 3 less games. Did the team look for Jake more than they did Oscar though? Or give him better delivery? No and no imo, we'll get to that. The improvement came because had more targets up forward there so we took more marks and halved more contests, which resulted in kicking more goals. Also Yeo and Reid kicked 20 between them so that helped as well. Shared the load as I said in the previous post.

The stat that tells the story I think is free's for. Because while each of them kicked 53.23 in their year at FF, Oscar somehow managed to get 29 free kicks to Jakes 11. Thats 1 more than Kennedy got in 2015 when he kicked 80 goals and took double the i50 marks. That would suggest that Oscar was marking the ball less per entry in 2023, the extra 20 free kicks probably indicates it was coming to him a hell of a lot when he's wasn't marking the ball.

For us to have kicked 180 more points from just 60 extra entries you'd have to think that with Oscar getting bulk free kicks he's finding himself out of position a lot. Clearly he was being used more in 2023 than Jake was in 2024, by a significant margin. He doesn't work as hard to get into position which doesn't help, but our players had eyes only for Oscar and easy to see why. No Waterman, no Jack Williams, no Cripps, no Ryan. Had a great year without a lot of help up there, there's no knock on him for that. But this narrative that he had less opportunity last year or delivery was different or if he was fit this year he would have kicked more goals than Jake is just not accurate. Delivery was sometimes bad because sometimes he was the wrong option [but maybe only option], and he played 11 games this year in the same side as Waterman with Simmo giving him his FF spot back from the jump [in the end I guess you would say they shared it] and anyone is free to pull up and compare their stats, you'll find that while Jake dropped off after Allen came back he still out performed him in the exact same forward line. It was a better year, he's reached a higher standard, saying anything other than that is cope.

Fortunately, you'd expect both have career best seasons ahead of them. Hopefully several each.

 

[EdCurnowRules]

This is probably going to generate some hate, but I like the idea of O Allen to the backline. Edwards doesn’t really have what it takes, McGovern is getting on, Bazzo is forever injured, and we have a fair queue of big forwards.

Allen has speed and size, is a good decision maker. He's a gun. The ideal swingman.

Plus due to his injury history we’d be better off learning to live without him up forward.

 

[Mudguts12]

Would be a shame to have JWilliams in the backline, kicked 16 goals and 4 behinds in 18 games last season.

Better off putting BBW there over him if the team can get another ruck sorted - can't mark for sh*t but might be better getting that one arm up or around for a spoil instead.

Wouldnt be too many KPFs that could match BBW for explosiveness off the mark either, just the IQ is a concern with his disposal.

Couldn't be a any worse that Barrass though with his default rainmaker kick and hope along the boundary.

 

[dinnaz]

Actually looks like you do.

The Crystal ball of doom and gloom.

Stolen

 

[Schtinker]

I had thought it was possible to transfer a Cat B player to the regular rookie list after the main draft but another poster (might have been WCE_phil ) has said it needs to be done prior to the draft

Personally think a bid will come at some point late in the draft but if not we can just take him with our last pick. Or we could hold over to the rookie draft on the assumption neither Richmond or North select him first (this would mean we couldn’t draft Knobel as a rookie though)

Yeah but can we swap him for an Irishman?