The Annual 3rd Team needed in WA thread.

[Silent Alarm]

Or 'other', I would easily know just as many people that support various Victorian teams as Fremantle.

But surely these people are just as attached to their sides, as West Australians are to the WA clubs? If they haven't dropped their club already despite 20 years of having an AFL game in Perth every weekend, surely they're not going to drop it now? Best case, those people end up picking up a tokenistic membership just to see live football, but never fully adopt the new franchise (as happens, but won't for much longer, with Freo).

 

[Admiral Byng]

The question still lies with what becomes of Subi?

A new side could play lower drawing games there, blockbusters/derbies at Burswood.

That's not the pattern of crowd attendances for Perth games. For Freo and West Coast, the majority of the crowd are home members, with opposition fans very much in the minority. There isn't such a huge variance in crowd numbers that it would make sense to shift venues based on how many opposition fans might turn up. That pattern doesn't apply to Freo or West Coast games, I don't expect it would apply to WA3 either. Maybe a couple of thousand opposition supporters might turn up on average, maybe Collingwood or Richmond would get about 5,000, other teams like GWS or Gold Coast might have only 500, but you wouldn't shift venues for the sake of 4,500. Play them all at the new stadium.

 

[Docker Clint]

Madurah cant even get a WAFL team up and running.

This thread is bad and anyone who thinks WA needs a third team should feel bad.

 

[Kram]

But surely these people are just as attached to their sides, as West Australians are to the WA clubs?

Oh I agree, just making to point that some might be surprised at how many people even kids support teams from over east.

 

[fabulousphil]

If you are looking at the actual numbers of unsatisfied potential AFL club members, the 3rd WA team is way ahead of Tassie, Canberra and even the Gold Coast and GWS business cases.

At the moment, the market in WA is horribly underdone and it is going to cost us ALL in the long run.

If you look at seats available per 1000 residents per week:
Melbourne 85
Adelaide 39
Perth 25

That is the reason why nearly every high school kid in Melbourne has been to the footy.
It is the reason why the majority of Perth high school kids have never been and will never go.
It is the reason why you can go to the footy for 20 bucks in Melbourne.
Currently, it seems likely that fewer than 130,000 DIFFERENT people attend one or more AFL games in Perth each year - almost certainly fewer than 150,000. This is due to member dominance instead of walkup ticketing.

In small markets like Australia, you need a high percentage of the population to be followers - unlike the US where the cities and regions are so populous that you only need a small percentage of followers. They can get away with relatively small stadiums. Adult "followership" is founded on childhood and teenage attendance. WA footy administrators have firmly ditched the idea of childhood and teenage attendance. The implications for the long term are not good.

Consider this New table with our options in bold and Italic (other figures current):

1. Current Melbourne situation = 84 seats / week / 1000 residents
2. WA 80000 seater PLUS 3rd WA team = 70
3. WA 60000 seater PLUS 3rd WA team = 53
4. WA 80000 seater (no extra team) = 47
5. Current Adelaide = 39
6. Subi Stays PLUS 3rd WA team = 38
7. WA 60000 seater (No extra team) = 35
8. Current Perth = 24

(By the way, the plans afoot in Adelaide would push them up the table.)


As you can see, the development of a 60,000 seater does not make a huge difference. As the table shows, in the context of AFL seat availability in the Southern states, the current plan DOES NOT lift us out of last place.

All of the options still leave as a long way behind Melbourne on a PER CAPITA basis. Not only in outright numbers but a LONG way behind PER CAPITA.

Going to the footy at Subi is

• expensive, compared to other states
• inconvenient, as facilities and access are very poor
• involves accepting an uncomfortable seat
• involves accepting poor viewing position from an unacceptably high % of seats

All of these things costs us attendees. If a decent stadium fixed any of those four, then more people would be likely to come. I think the AFL is keenly watching this from a distance and they are worried about the market penetration in WA.

Whichever way you look at it, for a population of 1.7 m and only 2 teams, 60k is not enough. If we had a 60k stadium, West coast would have 50k members sitting on members seats and there wouldn't be enough seats for visitors and walkups. It would just be a simple progression of the current bad situation. Also if all the arguments about needing only 60000 seats per week for 1.7 or 1.8 (or 2.1!) million people are correct... why are those arguments applicable to Perth but not to Adelaide or Melbourne?

If we had the same ratio of service that Adelaide or Melbourne, that would mean having 2 sides and a 190,000 seat stadium!!! Or 3 sides and a 125,000 seat stadium!!!

Whether it is the size of the stadium or the number of teams, something has to happen for the good of footy.

This guy makes a very good statistical case.

 

[Silent Alarm]

Oh I agree, just making to point that some might be surprised at how many people even kids support teams from over east.

The other thing is, you'd be surprised how many people 'like' a few clubs and have the jumpers for four or five teams without genuinely supporting one.

 

[master bate]

This guy makes a very good statistical case.

Based on crowd attendance it's a no brainer. But based on TV viewing the case probably isn't as compelling and that's the leagues main priority.

 

[fabulousphil]

Based on crowd attendance it's a no brainer. But based on TV viewing the case probably isn't as compelling and that's the leagues main priority.

People can only follow the game on tele, after viewing the game live.

 

[Shoei]

Case for a third WA AFL team.

* Huge population growth, thats does not look like stopping

* Huge economic growth, that does not look like stopping

* Waiting lists for memberships at WCE and this year at the Dockers.

* Very strong grass roots particiaption.

* Strong WA representation at national draft year in year out.

* Strong economy means strong sponsorship.

Further to that, and something i stated on another board, WCE membership is an ageing one and memberships are usually only turned over on the death/divorce/moving interstate etc, and then usually to other family members, the Dockers are becoming increasingly the same, generations of people are missing the oppurtunity to attend AFL games and maybe buy memberships.

Does this happen anywhere else in Australia ??, and when was the last time that anyone living in Melbourne was forced onto a waiting list for a membership.

I can see a point regarding the dilution of talent by adding another team, but that is not my argument.

By many measures a 3rd team in WA is needed.

You keep rehashing the same argument with little basis in reality.

Huge population growth, thats does not look like stopping

At June 2012, the population of Greater Perth was 1.90 million people, which was 78% of the state's total population. Between 2011 and 2012, Greater Perth increased by 65,400 people, or 3.6%.

A whopping 65,400 people!? Now how about you divide up that 65,000 into categories

Those that dont follow football
Those that wont follow football
Those that already follow a football team
Those that will follow the Eagles/Dockers
Those that are too young/old to support a team
Those that cant afford to support a team

65,000 becomes signicantly smaller.

Huge economic growth, that does not look like stopping
Strong economy means strong sponsorship

Lets kill two birds with one stone here. Go google the slowing down of WA's ecomony. WA just lost it's AAA credit rating and there will be cuts to government spending and job loses. Theres no money to be thrown into poor business ideas.

Very strong grass roots particiaption.
Strong WA representation at national draft year in year out.

Not sure what either of these have to do with making a 3rd WA team viable? NSW and Queensland both have strong grass roots and representation yet their clubs are not well supported.

Waiting lists for memberships at WCE and this year at the Dockers.
Does this happen anywhere else in Australia ??, and when was the last time that anyone living in Melbourne was forced onto a waiting list for a membership.


Both of these points are tied to the same issue. Popular teams with small capasity stadiums vs un-popular teams with a large capasity stadium.

Theres a 100,000 seated stadium in Melbourne that services 9 teams, the highest average crowd being Collingwoods at around 71,000 per game.

Most of the Melbourne clubs dont average more than 50,000 to game. You dont have waiting lists because supply vastly outstrips demand.

If Perth had a stadium of 100,000 then there would be no waiting lists.

 

[Colonial]

Isnt the WA economy pretty much reliant on the mining boom? Pretty much the same boom that is on a downward spiral.

 

[fabulousphil]

WA

You keep rehashing the same argument with little basis in reality.

Huge population growth, thats does not look like stopping

At June 2012, the population of Greater Perth was 1.90 million people, which was 78% of the state's total population. Between 2011 and 2012, Greater Perth increased by 65,400 people, or 3.6%.

A whopping 65,400 people!? Now how about you divide up that 65,000 into categories

Those that dont follow football
Those that wont follow football
Those that already follow a football team
Those that will follow the Eagles/Dockers
Those that are too young/old to support a team
Those that cant afford to support a team

65,000 becomes signicantly smaller.

Huge economic growth, that does not look like stopping
Strong economy means strong sponsorship

Lets kill two birds with one stone here. Go google the slowing down of WA's ecomony. WA just lost it's AAA credit rating and there will be cuts to government spending and job loses. Theres no money to be thrown into poor business ideas.

Very strong grass roots particiaption.
Strong WA representation at national draft year in year out.

Not sure what either of these have to do with making a 3rd WA team viable? NSW and Queensland both have strong grass roots and representation yet their clubs are not well supported.

Waiting lists for memberships at WCE and this year at the Dockers.
Does this happen anywhere else in Australia ??, and when was the last time that anyone living in Melbourne was forced onto a waiting list for a membership.


Both of these points are tied to the same issue. Popular teams with small capasity stadiums vs un-popular teams with a large capasity stadium.

Theres a 100,000 seated stadium in Melbourne that services 9 teams, the highest average crowd being Collingwoods at around 71,000 per game.

Most of the Melbourne clubs dont average more than 50,000 to game. You dont have waiting lists because supply vastly outstrips demand.

If Perth had a stadium of 100,000 then there would be no waiting lists.

WA supplys way more players to the national comp, far in excess of its 2 teams, NSW and QLD supply about 50 players each to the national comp, way below, WA players in the AFL are at about 180 (?)

WA population and its economy are still growing, the waiting list at both clubs will not get smaller, the potential sponsors are not drying up.

I keep rehashing the argument, because i think it valid, Bashashi makes a far better statistical case than i, my case is far more based on what i think, see and feel.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Shoei]

WA


WA supplys way more players to the national comp, far in excess of its 2 teams, NSW and QLD supply about 50 players each to the national comp, way below, WA players in the AFL are at about 180 (?)

WA population and its economy are still growing, the waiting list at both clubs will not get smaller, the potential sponsors are not drying up.

I keep rehashing the argument, because i think it valid, Bashashi makes a far better statistical case than i, my case is far more based on what i think, see and feel.

Thanks for your reply.

I was refering to the NRL and their clubs but was poorly written, my bad.

I think your heart is in the right place but im worried about being stuck with a gaping finacial hole if it is a rushed job.

 

[fabulousphil]

I was refering to the NRL and their clubs but was poorly written, my bad.

I think your heart is in the right place but im worried about being stuck with a gaping finacial hole if it is a rushed job.

They said the same about Freo.

10 year timeline IMO.

Demographically, statistically and financially i think it is a no-brainer

 

[basashi]

Two teams is a bad decision.

60,000 seater is a bad decision.

Only 650 seats in dining facilities (current spec calls for 1 X 150 seat a la carte restaurant PLUS 1 X 500 seat buffet venue) in the 60,000 is a decision that must have been arrived at by a very mean maiden aunt on her first LSD trip.

 

[estibador]

One thing.

If we go to 20 teams, the chances of return derbies happening are less

With 22 rounds there would only be 3 return games. Is it sustainable for eagles for example to have two of thos against other perth teams ?

Why not? The AFL have no problem giving Victorian teams double ups against each other.

You're not suggesting the VFL has different rules for their clubs compared to the 'interstaters' are you?

Shit idea anyway, just build a bigger stadium for f**ks sake.

 

[alter_ego]

I might be mis-informed here but...
I would be mostly concerned with WA becoming a little like Gold Coast situation, but with a role reversal between the NRL and AFL

I mean, with have a high growth area in a "traditional" football state, with an increasing migrant population from rugby leaning areas (Admittedly Union followers, but the switch between Union and League would be much easier than Union and AFL)

Wouldn't it make sense to prevent that from happening ?

 

[fabulousphil]

I might be mis-informed here but...
I would be mostly concerned with WA becoming a little like Gold Coast situation, but with a role reversal between the NRL and AFL

I mean, with have a high growth area in a "traditional" football state, with an increasing migrant population from rugby leaning areas (Admittedly Union followers, but the switch between Union and League would be much easier than Union and AFL)

Wouldn't it make sense to prevent that from happening ?

Most RU followers would probably prefer to support any other sport intead of RL and viccy verca.

Decent crossover between RU and AF IME

But i guess one of the reasons for a 3rd AFL team would also mop up sponsors and fans that may drift to other codes because of lack of membership etc.

 

[Papa G]

Not sure why any West Coast or Freo supporter would be advocating this as it will weaken them both in the short and long term. 18 teams is already too many.

 

[Seethus]

lets wait for the new stadium first, the current subi capacity is pathetic, and artificially makes it seem like there are way more people desperate for seats.
if each club could get consistent 50k crowds that would be a massive achievement once the new stadium is built.

 

[santa claws]

No thankyou. The bigger stadium will alleviate the waiting list issue for the Eagles, and there is a nice dichotomy between the north of the river/south of the river WCE/Freo rivalry currently.

A third team would offer nothing that the current two teams don't. There's just no point at the moment.

theres every point and a third team would offer plenty. in the name of fairness and equity there should not be one but two more teams out of wa.
but hey we cant have that we cant eat into the massive advantages freo and wce have. no we would all be better off cutting teams in melbourne.
yep i can see it now the usual selfish arguments and just how hard done by west australians are in general.

 

[estibador]

theres every point and a third team would offer plenty. in the name of fairness and equity there should not be one but two more teams out of wa.
but hey we cant have that we cant eat into the massive advantages freo and wce have. no we would all be better off cutting teams in melbourne.

So instead of trying to find the optimum level of teams in each market, we should just flood them all to drag them down to the level of welfare dependant Melbourne clubs? Great thinking.

 

[Colonial]

Would think a Tassie, Canberra and nth qlds club would be in before a 3rd WA, lets see how they handle their new stadium 1st.

 

[The_Reaper]

Would think a Tassie, Canberra and nth qlds club would be in before a 3rd WA, lets see how they handle their new stadium 1st.

Even Subi shits all over avaliable stadiums in Tassie, Canberra and North Qld.

 

[Colonial]

Even Subi shits all over avaliable stadiums in Tassie, Canberra and North Qld.

Its not about the stadium its about where teams should be located next. The main argument seems to be that there are too many fans for the size of stadium, as you are getting a new, larger one maybe we should wait and see how that effects things.

 

[The_Reaper]

Its not about the stadium its about where teams should be located next. The main argument seems to be that there are too many fans for the size of stadium, as you are getting a new, larger one maybe we should wait and see how that effects things.

It won't really effect much.

football as as popular in Perth as it is in Melbourne.

I don't think there is a need for a third Perth team but it would be financially stronger and more supported than Canberra, North Qld or GWS.