The Association Football AFL Thread 3.0

[TheGreatBarryB]

Sure, it doesn't make my statement untrue. How many interstate clubs have won GFs against Victorian clubs in the last 20 years? Is it two out of eleven?

Yeah but how many of those Vic clubs finished above their GF opponent on the ladder? Last three have ..think Hawks did in their three flags.

Lions won three in a row

 

[RPCB]

BT trending for all the wrong reasons (are there any right reasons with BT?). Multiple times last night he said Sam Walsh

18

Sam Walsh

Age

24

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.1

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.2

5star

K

15.4

5star

HB

10.8

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

4.8

5star

intentionally made contact with the ground with his head to win a free kick. I knew that BT needed to be moved on years ago, but now he has just lost the plot.

 

[SM]

Things can change quickly. Cats beat Blues 7-8 weeks ago.

Blues were barely missing anyone against us. Walsh, Cripps, weitering, McKay, curnow, tdk all played and we flogged them. We were missing mccartin and still are missing Mills. You're right, things could change even more the next time we play them.

 

[SM]

Yeah but how many of those Vic clubs finished above their GF opponent on the ladder? Last three have ..think Hawks did in their three flags.

Lions won three in a row

Irrelevant (somewhat) to my point. I'm saying Vic teams have a natural advantage at the G and that specifically is a shame this year as we're so far clear at the top but would face the Blues at their home ground.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Irrelevant (somewhat) to my point. I'm saying Vic teams have a natural advantage at the G and that specifically is a shame this year as we're so far clear at the top but would face the Blues at their home ground.

If you’re good enough you get over it. Vic teams had to live interstate and still made the GF in covid years

Blues were barely missing anyone against us. Walsh, Cripps, weitering, McKay, curnow, tdk all played and we flogged them. We were missing mccartin and still are missing Mills. You're right, things could change even more the next time we play them.

Some of those players were returning from injury and probably needed a few games.

 

[SM]

If you’re good enough you get over it. Vic teams had to live interstate and still made the GF in covid years


Some of those players were returning from injury and probably needed a few games.

Ah of course, that substantial sample size of one and a half years of covid impacted h&a games. You've convinced me that Vic clubs have had it just as bad. "If you're good enough" you're completely missing the point yet again. It's ok to just acknowledge that having to play a team at their home ground in the GF is an advantage for them and leave it at that.. We could still overcome that advantage but it still exists.

Oh OK, how about mccartin and Mills who didn't play for us? Which players were returning from injury for them? Walsh had a huge game the week before prompting us to tag him effectively. Who else was just back from injury from their best half a dozen?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Ah of course, that substantial sample size of one and a half years of covid impacted h&a games. You've convinced me that Vic clubs have had it just as bad. "If you're good enough" you're completely missing the point yet again. It's ok to just acknowledge that having to play a team at their home ground in the GF is an advantage for them and leave it at that.. We could still overcome that advantage but it still exists.

Oh OK, how about mccartin and Mills who didn't play for us? Which players were returning from injury for them? Walsh had a huge game the week before prompting us to tag him effectively. Who else was just back from injury from their best half a dozen?

Small sample size but also rare that a bunch of teams have to live in a hub interstate and still two of them made the GF.

Also brought up last three times the Vic team finished higher on the ladder. Hawks example, Lions example.

 

[SM]

Small sample size but also rare that a bunch of teams have to live in a hub interstate and still two of them made the GF.

Also brought up last three times the Vic team finished higher on the ladder. Hawks example, Lions example.

I suppose it helps when the two of them were the best two teams that season? Also consider that other teams also had to live in the hub so it's not as if the Vic teams overcame some disadvantage? The Lions no doubt shit the bed that year, but the Eagles etc. who were good sides going into that season also struggled with the hub.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally missing my point but the Vic team finishing higher on the ladder has no bearing on my point about the MCG being a home ground advantage. It seems like you're trying to use it to counter me saying the Swans are higher this year? Otherwise not quite clear on the point you're making. I'm not saying it's unfair that they as the higher placed team got to host the GF at their home ground and thus won, I'm saying that the overwhelming evidence is that if you have a Vic team play an interstate team, the Vic team wins. Whether they deserved to host or not. Yes you're right, if by nature the Vic team is 'better' then they're expected to win, but you're conflating two separate points of discussion into one.

2007 - Geelong (1) v Port (2) - Cats win by 117 points
2012 - Hawks (1) v Sydney (3) - Swans win by 10
2013 - Hawks (1) v Freo (3) - Hawks win by by 15
2014 - Sydney (1) v Hawks (2) Hawks win by 65
2015 - WCE (2) v Hawks (3) Hawks win by 46
2016 - Sydney (1) v WBD (7) WBD win by 22
2017 - Adelaide (1) v Richmond (3) Richmond win by 48
2018 - WCE (2) v Collingwood (3) WCE win by 5
2019 - Richmond (3) v GWS (6) Richmond win by 89
2022 - Geelong (1) v Sydney (3) Geelong win by 81
2023 - Collingwood (1) v Brisbane (2) Collingwood win by 4

So by my reckoning of the 11, there's five occasions where the interstate team 'should' have hosted due to finishing higher and on four of the five occasions the Victorian team who got a home state benefit (can sleep at home the night before, go through their same routines, etc. etc.) won and in three cases won comprehensively.

In the only two examples of interstate teams winning the flag against Vic teams (2012 and 2018) the Swans and WCE had to come back from a reasonable first quarter deficit to do so, and are arguably two of the more impressive GF wins in recent years.

There's also some complete blow out wins in 07, 19, 22 where interstate clubs were blown away early and just never recovered.

Now 2024, at this stage, looks likely to be another example of an interstate team finishing top and likely facing a Victorian team in the GF (Carlton and Pies perhaps the most likely to make it). If I made these posts following the GF (if we lost) it'd be seen as sour grapes which is why I'm having the conversation now. But surely you can acknowledge there is an advantage, and in many cases (5/11) an undeserved one, where in only one of those 5 has the 'better' team actually come out on top despite playing away in the GF.

This isn't going to change any time soon so there's no point the club complaining about it, they just have to get on with it, but in a year where there's been a lot of noise around the Academy selections at the draft and how much of a supposed advantage the Swans are getting in some aspects of their list building, it's worth remembering that the ultimate game that actually matters at the end of the season has been won twice by a non-Victorian club in the last 20 years. Surely that seems a higher priority issue to look into if we want to equalise the comp? At the end of the day in 10 years no one's going to care how amazingly tight the battle to finish top 8 was in 2024, they'll look back at who ultimately won the flag. And having Victorian team after Victorian team winning (in all but two cases) despite not 'earning' the right to host the GF is a bigger issue for the comp?

Yes in 2020 and 21 Victorian teams travelled and beat (lol) another Victorian team in the GF meaning Vic teams won GFs interstate but if anything that should support the argument for moving the GF around if Vic teams are capable of winning anywhere! What do they have to be worried about?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I suppose it helps when the two of them were the best two teams that season? Also consider that other teams also had to live in the hub so it's not as if the Vic teams overcame some disadvantage? The Lions no doubt shit the bed that year, but the Eagles etc. who were good sides going into that season also struggled with the hub.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally missing my point but the Vic team finishing higher on the ladder has no bearing on my point about the MCG being a home ground advantage. It seems like you're trying to use it to counter me saying the Swans are higher this year? Otherwise not quite clear on the point you're making. I'm not saying it's unfair that they as the higher placed team got to host the GF at their home ground and thus won, I'm saying that the overwhelming evidence is that if you have a Vic team play an interstate team, the Vic team wins. Whether they deserved to host or not. Yes you're right, if by nature the Vic team is 'better' then they're expected to win, but you're conflating two separate points of discussion into one.

2007 - Geelong (1) v Port (2) - Cats win by 117 points
2012 - Hawks (1) v Sydney (3) - Swans win by 10
2013 - Hawks (1) v Freo (3) - Hawks win by by 15
2014 - Sydney (1) v Hawks (2) Hawks win by 65
2015 - WCE (2) v Hawks (3) Hawks win by 46
2016 - Sydney (1) v WBD (7) WBD win by 22
2017 - Adelaide (1) v Richmond (3) Richmond win by 48
2018 - WCE (2) v Collingwood (3) WCE win by 5
2019 - Richmond (3) v GWS (6) Richmond win by 89
2022 - Geelong (1) v Sydney (3) Geelong win by 81
2023 - Collingwood (1) v Brisbane (2) Collingwood win by 4

So by my reckoning of the 11, there's five occasions where the interstate team 'should' have hosted due to finishing higher and on four of the five occasions the Victorian team who got a home state benefit (can sleep at home the night before, go through their same routines, etc. etc.) won and in three cases won comprehensively.

In the only two examples of interstate teams winning the flag against Vic teams (2012 and 2018) the Swans and WCE had to come back from a reasonable first quarter deficit to do so, and are arguably two of the more impressive GF wins in recent years.

There's also some complete blow out wins in 07, 19, 22 where interstate clubs were blown away early and just never recovered.

Now 2024, at this stage, looks likely to be another example of an interstate team finishing top and likely facing a Victorian team in the GF (Carlton and Pies perhaps the most likely to make it). If I made these posts following the GF (if we lost) it'd be seen as sour grapes which is why I'm having the conversation now. But surely you can acknowledge there is an advantage, and in many cases (5/11) an undeserved one, where in only one of those 5 has the 'better' team actually come out on top despite playing away in the GF.

This isn't going to change any time soon so there's no point the club complaining about it, they just have to get on with it, but in a year where there's been a lot of noise around the Academy selections at the draft and how much of a supposed advantage the Swans are getting in some aspects of their list building, it's worth remembering that the ultimate game that actually matters at the end of the season has been won twice by a non-Victorian club in the last 20 years. Surely that seems a higher priority issue to look into if we want to equalise the comp? At the end of the day in 10 years no one's going to care how amazingly tight the battle to finish top 8 was in 2024, they'll look back at who ultimately won the flag. And having Victorian team after Victorian team winning (in all but two cases) despite not 'earning' the right to host the GF is a bigger issue for the comp?

Yes in 2020 and 21 Victorian teams travelled and beat (lol) another Victorian team in the GF meaning Vic teams won GFs interstate but if anything that should support the argument for moving the GF around if Vic teams are capable of winning anywhere! What do they have to be worried about?

Hawks ‘14 & ‘15 finished equal on pts and 2 pts behind respectively. They won the GFs easily. Hard to argue they were not the best team.

The big anomaly was ‘16 where a few decisions went against you.

You’re bringing it up now so you do have an excuse. If you’re good enough you’ll win

 

[Kram]

Given their list Port are awful underachievers.

 

[SM]

Hawks ‘14 & ‘15 finished equal on pts and 2 pts behind respectively. They won the GFs easily. Hard to argue they were not the best team.

The big anomaly was ‘16 where a few decisions went against you.

You’re bringing it up now so you do have an excuse. If you’re good enough you’ll win

So I guess there's no time to discuss the advantage Victorian teams get. Weird. Still can't acknowledge it.

 

[Magma]

Given their list Port are awful underachievers.

outside of their mids their list isnt that flash really

 

[gaskin]

Like clockwork Port are only good in Hinkley's contract year. Surely everyone saw this coming?

 

[TubbsFarquhar]

Given their list Port are awful underachievers.

Midfield is good, but there's a lot of holes in that list.

 

[Magma]

feels like now more than ever that teams just give up huge runs of goals and teams too often dont have a response. it seems common these days for a team to give up 6+ goal runs. not a great look for the comp.

 

[gaskin]

feels like now more than ever that teams just give up huge runs of goals and teams too often dont have a response. it seems common these days for a team to give up 6+ goal runs. not a great look for the comp.

Since the change of HTB interpretation it is a lot harder for teams to try and stop the other side's momentum by turning it into a stoppage game and slowing it down. The last couple of weeks the games are a lot more open leading to higher scoring and teams on a roll are harder to stop.

 

[Magma]

Since the change of HTB interpretation it is a lot harder for teams to try and stop the other side's momentum by turning it into a stoppage game and slowing it down. The last couple of weeks the games are a lot more open leading to higher scoring and teams on a roll are harder to stop.

i get that and do agree but i feel as well too many sides are so committed to their 'style' and 'structures' that changes just dont get made on the fly like they used to. plus since 6-6-6 there really shouldn't be as many runs as you're able to reset and potentially get the ball out the middle. it looks like a lot of teams just accept their defeat in games and effort just disappears very quickly.

 

[SM]

i get that and do agree but i feel as well too many sides are so committed to their 'style' and 'structures' that changes just dont get made on the fly like they used to. plus since 6-6-6 there really shouldn't be as many runs as you're able to reset and potentially get the ball out the middle. it looks like a lot of teams just accept their defeat in games and effort just disappears very quickly.

Surely 6-6-6 leads to more runs as you can't put players behind the ball to slow a teams momentum.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Yep 6-6-6 plays a big role as does the stand rule. Before that it was years since we’ve had two teams score 139 and 152 in a year let alone same week. Runs were more common in 80s and 90s

 

[Art Vandelay_]

So I guess there's no time to discuss the advantage Victorian teams get. Weird. Still can't acknowledge it.

Some teams.
You'll get as many home finals this year as we've had in 165 years combined.

Vic finals favour 6 teams at the detriment of everyone else in some degree.

 

[SM]

Some teams.
You'll get as many home finals this year as we've had in 165 years combined.

Vic finals favour 6 teams at the detriment of everyone else in some degree.

Did Geelong stay at hotels in Melbourne for the GF in 2022? Genuinely asking as I don't know the answer.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Did Geelong stay at hotels in Melbourne for the GF in 2022? Genuinely asking as I don't know the answer.

Mix. Our location means we leave the decision to the players for GF's. Some choose hotels, some choose to catch the team bus on the morning.

Finals are not equitable or more accurately rewarding meritocracy as they should.
8 are guaranteed away GF's. 4 can either get an away or neutral GF. 4 don't get home finals Wk 1-3.

 

[Jatz]

19k people at the Sydney derby.

Rain or no rain, that’s pathetic.

 

[SM]

19k people at the Sydney derby.

Rain or no rain, that’s pathetic.

You realise the capacity is about 23k right? Torrential rain all day, it was basically a sell out so assume some who bought tickets or members thought better of it on the day.

 

[Jatz]

You realise the capacity is about 23k right? Torrential rain all day, it was basically a sell out so assume some who bought tickets or members thought better of it on the day.

Yes of course, it’s still gross.

GWS is the issue really. Locking out that many fans is so shit, but there’s not another ground to play it at. They could build something but then of course it would be empty for 95% of games.

Could go the Victorian route and play at the SCG and make the Swans the ‘away’ team for the week.