The Big 4 If It Were Decided Today

[dave10]

Surely your not saying the weather for that Elimination Final was the same as Friday Night?

78,000 is a pretty decent roll out, in fact it was the 2nd largest home and away attendance not including Collingwood for the season

Haw V Gee only got 78,000 on the Easter Monday public holiday!! When Ess played Car last on Easter Monday it drew 87,000 I believe.

If we were to talk apples with apples.. Any Ess V Carl match with both teams playing for top reaches of the ladder will always outdraw Haw V Gee.

With Collingwood that sorts out another 2 spots in the top 4 surely. Don't forget the high flying Hawks only drew 27,000 on a nice day at the MCG this year when they were giving away tickets.. Hardly big 4 stuff Hawk

 

[dave10]

for me, if the "big 4" of anything are the pillars that support and dominate that particular industry.

If you look at the AFL, I pick it like this:

1) Collingwood
2) West Coast
3) Essendon
4) Adelaide

In Melbourne, only two clubs were actively chased to be anchor tenants of the MCG and Etihad, Collingwood and Essendon. Both parties wanted them because they know they are the two biggest dogs in town over a sustained period of time.

West Coast is a no brainer, popular support, corporate monster, and regular on-field success.

Also include Adelaide as with their current slump we forget how strong they really are. Basically fanatically supported by an entire state, strong financially, and politically powerful in the AFL.

Hawks, Blues, and Tigers can moan and cry, but at the end of the day they are not in the same class of power as the above 4 any more. They rely on selling interstate games and additional AFL funding to keep up with the Jones's. Fair enough, for the Blues and Tigers are in this state because of failed administrations, but it definitely has dented their power in the league.

Just compare AFL attitude to ANZAC Day and the opening round. Collingwood and Dons are guaranteed that game basically till the end of time, Blues and Tigers opener is reviewed annually. Likewise their stadium deals. Blues and Tigers getting bent over by Etihad and the MCC, while Dons and Pies are courted and beloved. Both are strong, but lack the power and influence of the Dons and Pies today.

The Hawks appear strong right now because of their Tassie deal. If/when the deal ceases and they need to replace these revenues and memberships, we will see their true strength. Back in the Melbourne pit competing with 10 clubs for corporate support (instead of one state govt by itself) will be tough. Replacing the Tassie members with melbourne ones will be tougher IMO (its a golden time for them now, so you would expect their Melb membership is optimising most opportunities right now).

With regards to Geelong, I don't consider them a big 4 club, but only because they don't want to or need to be. They would be much bigger if they played more at the G, and courted the Melbourne dollar more. But their focus on Geelong is brilliant. Dominate the town, rake in the bucks at Kardina Park, and enjoy strong local financial support. Sure they are "big fish in a little pond", but when you have what they have, who cares about being in the Big 4!

And further, no disrespect to any clubs but I think the Essendon announcement of KIA as its co major partner a couple of weeks ago was very telling. $15M over 5 years. Not only a huge figure ($3m per year) but also long term. When you add the $1.7m it gets from True Value Solar, it's jumper is worth $4.7M in 2012. Not bad for a club that at best is considered on the way back up. I would say only Collingwood could not only achieve such strong deals but also achieve them in a way that appeared quite easily in that there was not lengthy delay or concern as to whether they would confirm a deal for 2012. Also, it is to soon announce another big figure against its HQ in Tulla. No disrespect, but Richmond didn't appear to have the same leverage 12 months ago with it's major partner outcome both in terms of $ or clout.

Only one aspect but quite significant and further demonstration as to who represents the Big 4. Essendon and Collingwood are the Big 2 in Victoria at least in the commercial world.

 

[Hawkk]

The weather wasn't that bad.. It may have cost you 5,000. The match was never even a suggestion of being sold out all week. Lets say apples with apples and an unlimited capacity stadium..

Haw V Geelong - 80,000
Ess V Carlton - 95,000

The weather was that bad

The MCC predicted 80,000 in the lead up to the game (predicting 85,000 for the Carlton/Essendon game in the lead up)

I was sitting in the Dining Room for that game and the rain (which was torrential for 2 quarters) was swirling from behind the members grandstand and hitting the undercover members seats

 

[Hawkk]

If Richmond drew more than a top 4 Hawthorn I wonder what it would look like if Hawthorn were 12th and Richmond were top 4.

Hawthorn has much less followers than Richmond. Always have always will.

Absolutely any quantifiable evidence to support this aside from the typical 'feel' and delusions of grandeur responses parroted by Richmond fans?

 

[smasha]

The Richmond chip on the shoulder never rubs off.

 

[Tzatziki_Man]

Conclusions
- Essendon, Carlton & Collingwood's attendances are largely inflated due to their Friday night fixtures, home games against one another and blockbuster matches (ANZAC Day, Dreamtime). HOWEVER, they are clearly the three most attended clubs in Victoria as of 2011.

- Richmond have had no success at all, which makes them incomparable to any other club. This has impacted their attendances in many ways, more Sunday games, less blockbuster games and less attendances due to severe lack of success. Their potential to grow is phenomenal. What we can compare, is their low placing on the ladder compared to Ess, Carl & Coll's low placing and they are in the same ballpark. Unlike Geelong & Hawthorn.

- Geelong & Hawthorn are incomparable due to their commitments in Geelong & Tasmania. Their figures are grossly misleading because they haven't been able to play in Melbourne during successful eras. What isn't misleading however, is the massive drop in attendance during times of sustained failure, which clearly shows Richmond is a league above.

- Conclusion, NO SUCH THING AS BIG FOUR. SIMPLY JUST A PERCEIVED BIG FOUR, A HISTORIC BIG FOUR, AN UNWARRANTED BIG FOUR & AN UNFAIRLY MISLEADING BIG FOUR.

SO GET OVER IT.

Here are the results however.


Home Game Averages
2011
Collingwood - 61, 488
Essendon - 49, 267
Carlton - 53, 212
Richmond 42, 784 (Darwin, Cairns)
Geelong - 35, 401 (SS)
Hawthorn - 36, 363 (TAS)

2010
Collingwood - 63, 256
Essendon - 44, 184
Carlton - 48, 009
Richmond - 37, 448
Geelong - 39, 137 (SS)
Hawthorn - 37, 876 (TAS)

2009
Collingwood - 53, 436
Essendon - 50, 709
Carlton - 47, 838
Richmond - 43, 159
Geelong - 30, 084 (SS)
Hawthorn - 39, 565 (TAS)

2008
Collingwood - 59, 213
Essendon - 46, 366
Carlton - 48, 589
Richmond - 43, 545
Geelong - 29, 509 (SS)
Hawthorn - 39, 976 (TAS)

2007
Collingwood - 54, 898
Essendon - 52, 294
Carlton - 41, 583
Richmond - 38, 255
Geelong - 31, 547 (SS)
Hawthorn - 33, 187 (TAS)

2004
Collingwood - 42, 852
Essendon - 43, 358
Carlton - 32, 479
Richmond - 35, 378
Geelong - 25, 747 (SS)
Hawthorn - 25, 349 (TAS)

2001
Collingwood - 49, 977
Essendon - 51, 790
Carlton - 31, 263 (PP)
Richmond - 46, 129
Geelong - 27, 083 (SS)
Hawthorn - 31, 499 (TAS)

1998
Collingwood - 51, 161
Essendon - 58, 905
Carlton - 24, 567 (PP)
Richmond - 44, 307
Geelong - 25, 099 (SS)
Hawthorn - 32, 173

1995
Collingwood - 48, 764
Essendon - 49, 424
Carlton - 25, 366 (PP)
Richmond - 46, 962
Geelong - 23, 593 (SS)
Hawthorn - 21, 882

 

[MightyHawks]

dont ever say come out of the woodwork... ever... again! we have been bottom four for 10 years, and currently have more members than everyone accept collingwood essendon and hawthorn in vic, on the back of 30 years years failure... woodwork? pffft, more members, and more bums on seats than "the oldest club in the world".

thats why we are big four. and that big four wont ever change....

is this not resinating with people, the common sense, the facts?
im tearing my hair out at people thinking the big four is any different now than what it was....

The Big 4 won't ever change.

Collingwood will continue to lose Grand Finals

Carlton will try to dodge the salary cap

Essendon will be the new Richmond

Richmond will continue to drift into obscurity as they follow the path of former Big 4 club Fitzroy...

 

[GFC123]

Overall, it's Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon and Richmond/Hawthorn. But right now, i'd say Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast Eagles.

 

[slimdusty4]

Absolutely any quantifiable evidence to support this aside from the typical 'feel' and delusions of grandeur responses parroted by Richmond fans?

it isnt a feeling, its just how it is, your recent memership and crowd numbers are on the back of success and success only, finish in the bottom eight once or twice, and look out.

The Big 4 won't ever change.

Collingwood will continue to lose Grand Finals

Carlton will try to dodge the salary cap

Essendon will be the new Richmond

Richmond will continue to drift into obscurity as they follow the path of former Big 4 club Fitzroy...

your missing the point, regardless of all changes in football, the big four has remained constant...

refer to your sig

 

[Hawkk]

it isnt a feeling, its just how it is, your recent memership and crowd numbers are on the back of success and success only, finish in the bottom eight once or twice, and look out.

I'm not sure I understand this?

Hawthorn; which is still far short of being a West Coast type financial juggernaut is the only Victorian club to post successive profits going back to 1997 (inc. '97-99, '02-06, '09) when we missed the finals

your missing the point, regardless of all changes in football, the big four has remained constant...

refer to your sig

Fact is, it really hasn't

You've only got to look at the current distribution of AFL monies to support this.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Richmond are playing Geelong in Geelong this year. Only minnows and interstate teams play Geelong in Geelong. As one poster described it in the fixture thread, it's the ultimate insult to Richmond.

Richmond, you're out of the Big 4.

 

[cat in sydney]

Richmond are playing Geelong in Geelong this year. Only minnows and interstate teams play Geelong in Geelong. As one poster described it in the fixture thread, it's the ultimate insult to Richmond.

Richmond, you're out of the Big 4.

Richmond have already been playing in Geelong over recent years...

2006 - Rd9
2007 - Rd 18
2009 - Rd2
2010 - Rd6

If it's an insult, then the AFL have been insulting Richmond for years. 2012 is nothing different.

 

[slimdusty4]

I'm not sure I understand this?

Hawthorn; which is still far short of being a West Coast type financial juggernaut is the only Victorian club to post successive profits going back to 1997 (inc. '97-99, '02-06, '09) when we missed the finals



Fact is, it really hasn't

You've only got to look at the current distribution of AFL monies to support this.

finances has nothing to do with being s big four team, hawthorn will never be able to claim it after a near merger (god bless don scott). your not bigger than us, hell your not even bigger than the boys from lygon st.

Richmond are playing Geelong in Geelong this year. Only minnows and interstate teams play Geelong in Geelong. As one poster described it in the fixture thread, it's the ultimate insult to Richmond.

Richmond, you're out of the Big 4.

donk, to quote my old mate happy gilmore: "i know what your doing, and i dont like it". haha come on mate, you know, i know, everyone knows that the big four is what it is, no hawks, cats eagles or crows. just the old firm, at first when we didnt get GCS and GWS twice, i was insulted, then i realized the afl gave those games to the lower drawing clubs .

and id rather play geelong at SS then at the hellhole that is ES.

Richmond have already been playing in Geelong over recent years...

2006 - Rd9 didnt we win this game?
2007 - Rd 18
2009 - Rd2
2010 - Rd6

If it's an insult, then the AFL have been insulting Richmond for years. 2012 is nothing different.

they really have been havent they? i mean its not like i want melbourne/north melbourne like treatment from them, i suppose in a way, id rather we didnt get any favours, will make success that little bit sweeter.

 

[cash]

Hawthorn can't be in the big 4. For Victorian based clubs only and they are part TAS part VIC.

Geelong has got a good case to displace Richmond.

 

[Groupie_]

Richmond are playing Geelong in Geelong this year. Only minnows and interstate teams play Geelong in Geelong. As one poster described it in the fixture thread, it's the ultimate insult to Richmond.

Richmond, you're out of the Big 4.

Richmond playing in Geelong would be more a result of average on field performances than crowd figures..

*Again, we outdrew you this season and you came 3rd. Now tell me who the minnows are.

You will never be as big as Richmond, slip down the ladder and your attendances and membership will become Melbourne like.

 

[Hawkk]

finances has nothing to do with being s big four team, hawthorn will never be able to claim it after a near merger (god bless don scott).

If its not based on finances, what is it based on then?

- Membership?
- Revenue?
- 'Passion' - a popular measure for the 'yella and black'?

Is 'passion' quantifiable

[quyour not bigger than us, hell your not even bigger than the boys from lygon st.[/quote]

Despite having more members, greater revenue, a POSITIVE balance sheet I can cop Carlton, being a foundation club that has won 16 flags they are a truely great club....

Great clubs don't play at Kardina Park every season

donk, to quote my old mate happy gilmore: "i know what your doing, and i dont like it". haha come on mate, you know, i know, everyone knows that the big four is what it is, no hawks, cats eagles or crows. just the old firm, at first when we didnt get GCS and GWS twice, i was insulted, then i realized the afl gave those games to the lower drawing clubs .

and id rather play geelong at SS then at the hellhole that is ES.

Fortunately we play the fewest amount of games at the venue out of the Victorian clubs.

 

[Hawkk]

Hawthorn can't be in the big 4. For Victorian based clubs only and they are part TAS part VIC.

Geelong has got a good case to displace Richmond.

Yet despite being part Tasmanian we play 1 less MCG game than Collingwood, the same as both Melbourne and Richmond (13 games)

Not a bad deal really, shift 4 games interstate and play the same number of games at the home ground as clubs that shift 1 game

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Yet despite being part Tasmanian we play 1 less MCG game than Collingwood, the same as both Melbourne and Richmond (13 games)

Not a bad deal really, shift 4 games interstate and play the same number of games at the home ground as clubs that shift 1 game

It's a good deal!!

 

[unstable punt]

Who would be in if this concept was created today?

My view is that Richmond and possibly Carlton would be out and replaced by West Coast and either Hawthorn or Geelong. Clubs with bigger recent success and a strong supporter and finance base.

What are your thoughts?

Discuss!

AHHHH!!! the obsession with the "big four" this is something new, wish you people would blow the "big 4" up your arse

 

[Dr Awkward]

The fact that Richmond has been sh*t for 30 years and is still well and truly alive and a relatively healthy club is testament to their big 4 status.

Thirty years, say that slowly...

 

[catters05]

What is this big4? DO you mean as in crowds?

When Subiaco finally gets bulldozed and the Eagles have a 70K stadium and they are averaging close to that number, they will be the biggest club and i think Freo wont be far behind.

Subiaco holds back those two.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Great clubs don't play at Kardina Park every season

Fortunately we play the fewest amount of games at the venue out of the Victorian clubs.

And they don't play at Aurora 4 times a year.....

Nor do they play Carlton at Etihad.


Collingwood, Essendon and West Coast are about the only clubs that don't have something shocking like that in their fixture.

 

[Tiger2709]

I love the Richmond supporters that go week in and week out, yep, they have put up with a bit, but don`t try and tell me that they don`t hop on and off quicker than any group in the league.

You seem to forget about your own team which are actually the biggest bandwagons in the league, as shown by the way they were deserting in droves, while sliding down the ladder under Knights, your club spent millions to address this disgraceful effort by the Essendon "supporters", our attendances and membership has been fairly steady over the last horrible 30 years, yours dropped after one, and will most likely drop further once you realise Hird is the next Crazy Vosy

 

[windyhill]

The fact that Richmond has been sh*t for 30 years and is still well and truly alive and a relatively healthy club is testament to their big 4 status.

Thirty years, say that slowly...

Mate, they are grouped with st.kilda, one flag in their history. Melbourne, nothing since 1964 and the bulldogs, one since 1954. richmond fans cling onto this "look how shit we are"...you have plenty of company boys.

 

[windyhill]

You seem to forget about your own team which are actually the biggest bandwagons in the league, as shown by the way they were deserting in droves, while sliding down the ladder under Knights, your club spent millions to address this disgraceful effort by the Essendon "supporters", our attendances and membership has been fairly steady over the last horrible 30 years, yours dropped after one, and will most likely drop further once you realise Hird is the next Crazy Vosy

kevin bartlett years, which leads to richmond fans turning their back on their beloved club which leads to tin rattles.