The dust has settled....some perspective

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That says a lot about where we're at. The fact that two players is the difference between a 12 goal loss and a competitive effort is really poor and just illustrates the difference between our best and worst.

For instance take McPharlin and Pavlich out of Fremantle's line up and give us Reid and White and I'd still back them in because they would just work harder to help each other out. Which is exactly what we didn't do after 1/4 time.
And when you have a quality backman who doesn't have to pay as much attention to his man, a quality forward who demands attention, the flow on effect can be massive. You have more clean ball out of the backline and your forward line is able to spread defenders. More targets and more open targets. Can change the face of the game for most clubs. There is much more that it can do but I'm wary of creating monster posts that won't be read anyway.
 
And when you have a quality backman who doesn't have to pay as much attention to his man, a quality forward who demands attention, the flow on effect can be massive. You have more clean ball out of the backline and your forward line is able to spread defenders. More targets and more open targets. Can change the face of the game for most clubs. There is much more that it can do but I'm wary of creating monster posts that won't be read anyway.

I hope you're correct because it looks like things will go that way against the Swans. I just feel that with the size of the Fremantle team a lot of their players are interchangeable which leads to them being able to cover the loss of key players easier.

For instance if my scenario played out Lyon is sharp enough tactically to move 2 players behind the ball instead of 1 to provide support to the defensive unit without McPharlin. He then moves Fyfe to a back flank and instead of pushing Sandi forward he drops him into the hole wherever possible thus turning the game into a 60-50 snorefest which I'd back them in to win with our inexperience.

If we accept Ed's line of thinking (which I'm happy to run with because I prefer a positive outlook :thumbsu:) we were never going to kick a winning score without the two talls. With that being the case the question needs to be asked why didn't Buckley throw numbers behind the ball to limit the damage defensively and try to keep us in the match for as long as possible? Instead of flooding the contest with numbers and then getting exposed once they had it in space because our defenders had to play one on one and our mids didn't work hard enough defensively.
 
Our primary number one problem is our forward line. We need;
- 1-2 small quick forwards (no options on the list)
- second marking option (Reid or White should fill this)
- goal kicking elite kick of a half forward (Fasolo may be best placed on the current list)

Every forward must be a dangerous goal kicker else the opposition backline sags off, intercept marks, switch kicks or kicks through the middle and we're toast.
The other thing because we lack those medium and small options we are terrible when we break the press and have half a field in front of us. Every time we stop, back track, kick sideways and lose the advantage. Guys like Ballantyne will just power through and kick an easy goal.
 

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That says a lot about where we're at. The fact that two players is the difference between a 12 goal loss and a competitive effort is really poor and just illustrates the difference between our best and worst.

For instance take McPharlin and Pavlich out of Fremantle's line up and give us Reid and White and I'd still back them in because they would just work harder to help each other out. Which is exactly what we didn't do after 1/4 time.
Saying it's just two players missing and we should be able to cover them is just simply simplistic -it's not just two players but two players absolutely cruicial to the way our forward line - indeed our attacking gameplan have been built around.
 
Our primary number one problem is our forward line. We need;
- 1-2 small quick forwards (no options on the list)
- second marking option (Reid or White should fill this)
- goal kicking elite kick of a half forward (Fasolo may be best placed on the current list)

Every forward must be a dangerous goal kicker else the opposition backline sags off, intercept marks, switch kicks or kicks through the middle and we're toast.
The other thing because we lack those medium and small options we are terrible when we break the press and have half a field in front of us. Every time we stop, back track, kick sideways and lose the advantage. Guys like Ballantyne will just power through and kick an easy goal.
Ok on the forward line we can have Cloke, White, Reid, Fas, Elliott - all are markers and all decent (normally) in front of goals, part of the problem may be solved by allowing Swanny to drift forward and add his marking prowess but we still lack that vital last man.
 
Saying it's just two players missing and we should be able to cover them is just simply simplistic -it's not just two players but two players absolutely cruicial to the way our forward line - indeed our attacking gameplan have been built around.

I never said that we should be able to cover them and TBH I don't expect us to I'd just like to see us flexible enough to cope with those sorts of curveballs and not just rollover after one quarter of effort.
 
I hope you're correct because it looks like things will go that way against the Swans. I just feel that with the size of the Fremantle team a lot of their players are interchangeable which leads to them being able to cover the loss of key players easier.

For instance if my scenario played out Lyon is sharp enough tactically to move 2 players behind the ball instead of 1 to provide support to the defensive unit without McPharlin. He then moves Fyfe to a back flank and instead of pushing Sandi forward he drops him into the hole wherever possible thus turning the game into a 60-50 snorefest which I'd back them in to win with our inexperience.
He has that luxury because he has the onballers who will win most contests. When they're being matched or beaten in contests, he won't go down that line. He'll run the risk of mids leading into the forward line and getting on the end of passes that bypass congestion. This is where we will miss a fit Daisy. When you're winning contested ball and spreading well, big Sandy will be next to useless because you won't have the likes of Swan needing to put it on the boot quickly.

If we accept Ed's line of thinking (which I'm happy to run with because I prefer a positive outlook :thumbsu:) we were never going to kick a winning score without the two talls. With that being the case the question needs to be asked why didn't Buckley throw numbers behind the ball to limit the damage defensively and try to keep us in the match for as long as possible? Instead of flooding the contest with numbers and then getting exposed once they had it in space because our defenders had to play one on one and our mids didn't work hard enough defensively.
Whether the side lost by 30 or 70 is stuff we and the media will worry about. Yes percentage is an issue but in the early rounds, I think he is willing to pit our numbers against the best and see where we're at. I think the second quarter showed that we couldn't go with them and in that case, an honorable loss would have still highlighted deficiencies in scoring potential.
 
This is what I saw plenty of. We'd have more numbers around the contest and we when won it, it'd generally be a quick kick forward to Freos spare man.

We have chosen to get more numbers to the contest. Unfortunately we aren't winning it at a high enough % for it to be worthwhile, as when we don't win it! the spare man for Freo gets an easy HB receive and scoots into space
The contested possession and clearances stats on their own are overrated. So what if you are up in contested possession and clearances if you have more players at the contest - you SHOULD be winning those by a fair margin. It's much more damaging if you can win these when you actually have LESS numbers at the contest as Fremantle did to us. On Friday we were a mere +1 in contested possession and only broke even in stoppage clearances despite often having numbers at the ball. Interestingly we won centre clearances 14-9 when you have to go equal numbers against the opposition. That might be telling us something.

Novel idea - how about backing our gun mids (Beams, Pendlebury, +1 or 2 other inside mids) to go 1 on 1 against the opposition's best, keep the contest more open so we have players outside for our most creative guys to release to rather than clogging it up around the ball with numbers! We struggled to release effectively when we did win the contest because everyone was hunting for the ball. Once Fyfe moved into the middle and the other Fremantle mids began to crank it up we just got smashed as they fed it out to open teammates and guys on the move whilst we were all caught at the original contest.
 
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Who are their 8? Sylvia was fit as was Clarke. Gumbleton?
They have Ibbotson Crozier Bradley Z.Clarke Gumby Sylvia Silvangi Griffen to call upon if we needed. We have about the same to call upon and need to call upon them that's the difference.
They are a 70 point better team. That's par imo.
 
They have Ibbotson Crozier Bradley Z.Clarke Gumby Sylvia Silvangi Griffen to call upon if we needed. We have about the same to call upon and need to call upon them that's the difference.
They are a 70 point better team. That's par imo.
Yes they were missing quality players, but structure wise, the players we had missing hurt alot more to us compared to a missing Kepler Bradley or Colin Sylvia for them.
 
Yes they were missing quality players, but structure wise, the players we had missing hurt alot more to us compared to a missing Kepler Bradley or Colin Sylvia for them.
Yeh but the ball was hardly forward so how did that hurt our sturture. No point bringing in White and Reid v Fremantle and taking out Witts if they aren't getting supply anyway. Our forward 50 entries after half time were nearly con existent. You could have brought Lockett on we still would've lost by 70 points.
 
Yeh but the ball was hardly forward so how did that hurt our sturture. No point bringing in White and Reid v Fremantle and taking out Witts if they aren't getting supply anyway. Our forward 50 entries after half time were nearly con existent. You could have brought Lockett on we still would've lost by 70 points.
After half time it was a head game
If we had someone to kick to for the first 2 quarters we very well could have been up and about and confident and playing good football agianst freo for the next 2. Obviously im talking hypothetically but we are 100% not a 70 point worse team to freo when we have full strength teams.
 
Yeh but the ball was hardly forward so how did that hurt our sturture. No point bringing in White and Reid v Fremantle and taking out Witts if they aren't getting supply anyway. Our forward 50 entries after half time were nearly con existent. You could have brought Lockett on we still would've lost by 70 points.
Delivery in was influenced by who was in there. A genuine target at CHF draws the ball in a particular way. Should the ball spill and hit the deck in that area more often, mids and other half forwards are more incline to run hard to the contest rather than sit back and wait for it to come back. As it stood, it was difficult to get forward run happening with the set up of the forward line and the way the ball was banged in.
 

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Yeh but the ball was hardly forward so how did that hurt our sturture. No point bringing in White and Reid v Fremantle and taking out Witts if they aren't getting supply anyway. Our forward 50 entries after half time were nearly con existent. You could have brought Lockett on we still would've lost by 70 points.
Could have swung Reid back to sure up the defence plus would have given us an elite distributor from the back half, that alone would have increased our forward entries. Add White to the forward line to receive those entries and you get a much more potent combination. Might not have won but there is no way Fremantle are, on par, a 70 point better team that's just complete nonsense.
 
Ok on the forward line we can have Cloke, White, Reid, Fas, Elliott - all are markers and all decent (normally) in front of goals, part of the problem may be solved by allowing Swanny to drift forward and add his marking prowess but we still lack that vital last man.


I reckon that vital man might just be Dwyer.
He set up so many goal with delivery into the forward line last year.
 
Could have swung Reid back to sure up the defence plus would have given us an elite distributor from the back half, that alone would have increased our forward entries. Add White to the forward line to receive those entries and you get a much more potent combination. Might not have won but there is no way Fremantle are, on par, a 70 point better team that's just complete nonsense.
Exactly. So Reid plays back for the year. Case closed. We've seen where our weaknesses are for the season.
 
I reckon that vital man might just be Dwyer.
He set up so many goal with delivery into the forward line last year.
Yep he has the tools and the composure but may need a little shepherding like Judd used to get when he played for Wet Toast, create a corridor for him to run and set up in or at least enough interference to give him a step or two to execute with extreme prejudice lol.
 
That says a lot about where we're at. The fact that two players is the difference between a 12 goal loss and a competitive effort is really poor and just illustrates the difference between our best and worst.

For instance take McPharlin and Pavlich out of Fremantle's line up and give us Reid and White and I'd still back them in because they would just work harder to help each other out. Which is exactly what we didn't do after 1/4 time.

Yeah nah. Gonna disagree with you there. You make those changes and the game os over at quarter time anyway.
 
We arrived late at the point where we had scored 2 goals. As I sat there in the 3rd quarter I had the awful feeling that I wasn't going to witness us scoring a goal for the whole time I was there. We never looked like scoring. Hopefully this improves once Reid and White return. The difference in the ball movement between the two teams was huge. Their pressure was too much for us. We won't be the last side that Freo murder this year. In the words of an ex coach, they are a very, very good football team. If we are still getting belted when Reid etc return, I will worry.

Kick outs - When we kicked out, you could see the massive swarm of Freo player hunting to keep the ball in. If it wasn't the press that go us, it was the fact that we kicked it straight to Sandilands. It seemed pretty dumb to be honest. At the other end of the ground it was a totally different picture. At one kick out, the only Collingwood player forward of the centre square was the bloke standing on the mark. It was too easy for them.
 
They have Ibbotson Crozier Bradley Z.Clarke Gumby Sylvia Silvangi Griffen to call upon if we needed. We have about the same to call upon and need to call upon them that's the difference.
They are a 70 point better team. That's par imo.

They are not 70 points better than us. They were electric and we were woeful. If both teams are at their best and close to full strength I'd say they're 4-5 goals better than us; and that's nothing to be ashamed of given where the list is at compared to theirs.

Of course this is speculation, but if we had have converted a few of our 16 behinds and 5 out on the full and kicked at just 50% accuracy then the margin would have been around 4 goals (I know they missed a few easy shots too).

We have a few glaring weaknesses both structurally and in terms of skills, but I think once Reid and White straighten us up a bit, we minimise the fumbles and start winning some 50/50 contests we'll be pretty competitive. Nobody expects much from this year and if we can just get some games into the next generation at times throughout the year (Langdon, Kennedy, Grundy, Broomhead, Freeman, Scharenberg, Williams, Thomas, Seedsman, Adams, Elliott, Oxley, Ramsay) then we'll be well on our way to success in the next few years. Not all of them will make it but there is some serious talent amongst them, and we need these guys to push out the "C graders" who are holding us back at present with their mediocre skills (Macaffer, Blair, Maxwell, Goldsack, Clarke) and to replace the ageing Swan and Ball. The game has evolved and we can't carry some of those guys who got the job done in 2010 as much as it pains me to say it....
 
I believe that our back line has not functioned well for some time. The opposition clears the ball too easily. How many goals did we leak by them going goal to goal?
Set up from kick in after a point - no system, kicking to the boundary where Sandilands waited and their smalls ready to take it away.
I don't believe having another tall on our forward line would have made that much difference the way the ball was coming in.
I am a bit old fashioned in that I believe that attack begins from defence.
I thought that our mids did drop back but in doing that left their opponent and no-one else picked them up thereby creating loose men all over the ground.
My biggest concern was that after the first quarter I didn't see any positional changes. When playing as badly as we where, try something. Sheedy was a master at that.
There at least 4 coaches in the box.
 
I don't think you can put in the effort that was there in that first quarter if you aren't all singing from the same hymn book. IMO the answer lies somewhere in between.

There was probably some sort of disconnect after quarter time, but that probably gets back to a lack of scoreboard pressure, injuries and inexperience more than anything seriously wrong.

It's also worth noting Snoop that you gave very little credit to the opposition in the OP. 2014 has a very 2011 feel to it with two quite outstanding teams at the head of the table and the rest from 3-14 relatively even. The more I reflect on it the more I feel that it may simply be a case of us being pantsed by a ******* good outfit and sometimes there isn't much you can do about that.

Who know's when Freo are 6-0 with a % of 180 and we're 3-3 or 4-2 some might realise we were just owned by a bloody good team. The fact that we faced them first up just happened to compound that...


Quoted this because it's ****in spot on the money.
 
Reid is a gun at intercept marking. Non of the guys there on Friday had the confidence to go for those marks.

Reid needs to play back IMO.

I was OK with how Grundy and Witts went and that should only improve when they don't have to play as the 2nd key forward, rather be the 3rd tall.
 

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The dust has settled....some perspective

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