The frightening legacy of George W Bush

[Dry Rot]

Haven't read the thread closely, but I hope someone has included the appalling budget deficts George W has left for future generations to deal with.

From memory, Republican Presidnts of late have a habit of doing this, despite their rhetoric.

Re George W, hasn't he totally undone all the progress that the Clinton admin did on this?

 

[- PC -]

Haven't read the thread closely, but I hope someone has included the appalling budget deficts George W has left for future generations to deal with.

Of all listed by JM the 2 most important in my mind are the disintegration of Iraq which will have consequences for the next 30 years and the economic instability the cost of the Iraq campaign will have on the domestic US market.

America is entering a period where economic forces will inhibit much in America. An American led economic depression could well be on the horizon due to the mismanagment of the budget by GWB

On another tack there is this from here

“… While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

A Report of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC),
Rebuilding America's Defenses - September, 2000

 

[Dry Rot]

maybe I'm missing something, but every argument for invading Iraq has always looked real thin to me.

I can excuse that (assuming they were just going after the oil) but the incompetence since the "live" war finsihed has been staggering, and fast forward to today.

Maybe it's the fine Eden Valley riesling and dreadful cheap beer I've had toinght, or the Knack on Rage but I began to think of Hitler's invasion of Russia - pretty irrelevant (I blame the bad beer and the Knack for that) but perhaps the early victories, the arogance, and targeting Russian oil as a key objective resonate today?

Or maybe this thought is as bad as the Knack?

 

[section8]

But Andrew Bolt told me that global warming is a myth

And the UK was once warm enough for Roman settlers to grow grapes.

 

[section8]

Your a clown camsmith and an apologist for Bush and Howard.

Do you deny the response to Katrina was slow? I see you never denied it.. but yawned as if it was old news.

Do you deny that Iraq is in turmoil and the US plan of occupation of Iraq basically consisted of the US forces liberating Baghdad and the Iraqi people being so thankful they stopped fighting amongst themselves?

Do you deny Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo?... oh I forgot they are only camel rats and terrorists

Do you accept that Church and State , an issue so deeply felt 229 years ago they enshrined the separation of church and state within their own constitution, is now closely linked to the policies and politics of GWB?.

Do you accept the weakening of the UN is led by the US?

Or will you pick holes in 1 or 2 and then belittle the rest? Please show how each and every one of the OP points are false or STFU.

Oh no! Not the UN?! hahaha.

Sorry, but with access to nuclear materials/weapons becoming simpler to come by, the world becoming a smaller place every day, and a religion whose holy book basically says everyone not a Muslim can choose to be a slave or dead, calls for drastic measures. It's strange how we only hear of US misdeeds in the WOT. Russia, France, China (3 of 5 permanent UN security council members and heroes of the left and communists everywhere) and Thailand have been just as "brutal" and acted without due process in dealing with their "religion of peace" problems in their respective countries but unsurprisingly, without the associated uproar reserved for the US approarch to dealing with their problems.

The US needs a presence right in the guts (Iraq is as good a country as any) of the problem which is a long term one and should not be assessed solely on current conditions there. Their presence benefits not only the US but the rest of the developed/developing world through destroying terrorist networks and creating economic and social stability in the long term. I think a few contracts and some texas tea in return is only fair.

 

[Monkster]

They didn't 'book and schedule the first available plane out'. They were given special permission to fly out of the country at a time when no other civilian aircraft were being permitted to fly. It was not that there were other flights being allowed, and the Bin Ladens simply beat them to it. They were the only exception.

The question is, why?

Actually you are completly wrong, if you look at the link I posted it clearly states that other Saudis flew out at the same time, and if you look at thse pieces specifically

"But the key point is that the Saudis mentioned in these accounts were not flown out of the country — they were assembled at locations from which they could be conveniently flown out of the country once regular airline travel resumed. "

"but in many cases it appears that the issue of Saudis flying within the U.S. has been confused with the issue of their leaving the U.S. "

It seems no one left the US during the general ban but that they were flown to assembly points where they could leave once the ban was lifted.

And if you need to ask why Saudis were flown out of a country soon after terrorist attacks were performed by Saudis than I don't know what to tell you.

 

[dan warna]

Haven't read the thread closely, but I hope someone has included the appalling budget deficts George W has left for future generations to deal with.

From memory, Republican Presidnts of late have a habit of doing this, despite their rhetoric.

Re George W, hasn't he totally undone all the progress that the Clinton admin did on this?

true the budget deficits are absolutely enormous, and the US is running deficits in the hundreds of billions p/a on a federal basis. This has coincided with a nearly 4 fold increase in defence and security spending in about 6 yearse from about 260 billion US to about 980 billion next F/Y will overseaing massive cuts in taxation revenue from the highest earning 10% of the population and massive cuts in welfare, education, health etc.

I have no problem with the US embargoes on exports to Japan. Japanese atrocities in China, korea etc are largely unknown in the western world. US and british forces were assisting as 'advisors' and 'volunteers' the chinese as Japanese imperialism went close to surpassing the horrors of the Nazis were inflicting on Europe.

 

[MightyFighting]

Oh no! Not the UN?! hahaha.

Sorry, but with access to nuclear materials/weapons becoming simpler to come by, the world becoming a smaller place every day, and a religion whose holy book basically says everyone not a Muslim can choose to be a slave or dead, calls for drastic measures.

How about you read the bible for a while before complaining about nasty things written in holy books. The words "grain of salt" come to mind.

It's strange how we only hear of US misdeeds in the WOT.

It is strange, because it's not my recollection.

Russia,

We're always hearing about Chechnya.

France,

There has been discussion of French "anti-terror" laws.

China (3 of 5 permanent UN security council members and heroes of the left and communists everywhere)

Moron. The left are always putting up "Free Tibet" signs. Yeah, the left loves the "People's Republic" dearly.

and Thailand have been just as "brutal" and acted without due process in dealing with their "religion of peace" problems in their respective countries

Thailand? Now there's an important country. Perhaps you're angry that we don't spend nearly enough time discussing Nigeria as well?

countries but unsurprisingly, without the associated uproar reserved for the US approarch to dealing with their problems.

The US is the most powerful, and therefore important, country in the world. Their actions have the greatest effect on the world, and, as a democracy, they are expect to act with more humanity than the tin-pot dictators you'd much prefer us to concentrate on.

The US needs a presence right in the guts (Iraq is as good a country as any) of the problem which is a long term one and should not be assessed solely on current conditions there. Their presence benefits not only the US but the rest of the developed/developing world through destroying terrorist networks and creating economic and social stability in the long term. I think a few contracts and some texas tea in return is only fair.

In other words, "The Iraqi people stand to benefit so much from having American overlords that it's only fair that those overlords should snatch the Iraqi choicest possessions for themselves."

 

[- PC -]

And if you need to ask why Saudis were flown out of a country soon after terrorist attacks were performed by Saudis than I don't know what to tell you.

Why?

Dont you think for an intelligence service, who identified the attacks as possibly being related to Osama Bin Laden, it would be convenient to question members of the Bin Laden family?

Anyway we all know it was an Iraqi plot formed by Saddam planned in Afghanistan.... otherwise the US would have gone in and liberated Saudi Arabia from all those terror camps

 

[Monkster]

Why?

Dont you think for an intelligence service, who identified the attacks as possibly being related to Osama Bin Laden, it would be convenient to question members of the Bin Laden family?

Anyway we all know it was an Iraqi plot formed by Saddam planned in Afghanistan.... otherwise the US would have gone in and liberated Saudi Arabia from all those terror camps

As I posted earlier the FBI had plenty of opportunity to question the members before they left the country.

As for why were they flown out? Think about it for a second, Saudi terrorists bomb America, mob of angry Americans see innocent Saudi person, mob of angry Americans attack innocent Saudi person.

If you think thats over the top than this quote:

" Those fears were not unfounded, as the stabbing incident involving a Saudi student in Boston demonstrated:

The Boston police hate crimes unit is probing the stabbing of a Saudi Arabian man who was attacked Sunday morning by a group of men as he left a Back Bay nightclub, where people had taken up a collection to benefit disaster relief work in New York.

The 20-year-old Boston University student remained in a Boston hospital after suffering two knife wounds in his arm and a third puncture to his back that missed his kidney by four inches, according to police and a relative.

"I'm honestly shocked," said the victim's brother, a recent MIT graduate, who asked that his name not be printed. "My parents were worried about this, obviously, after the tragedy in this country. I reassured them that Boston was a safe city. But I have lost my faith."

Boston police said the Community Disorders Unit is probing the attack, searching for leads to identify the four or five suspects who attacked the man and a friend as the two waited for others who had gone to fetch a car.

The victim's brother said one of the assailants allegedly yelled, "You Arab (expletive)" during the assault on Belvidere Street after the victim and his friends had left Club Nicole in the Back Bay Hilton."

May change your mind

 

[rick James]

They didn't 'book and schedule the first available plane out'. They were given special permission to fly out of the country at a time when no other civilian aircraft were being permitted to fly. It was not that there were other flights being allowed, and the Bin Ladens simply beat them to it. They were the only exception.

The question is, why?

The question should really be, who the hell told you that bollocks? And secondly, why did you not double check it to ensure it was right?

Here:


Moore is guilty of a classic game of saying one thing and implying another when he describes how members of the Saudi elite were flown out of the United States shortly after 9/11.

If you listen only to what Moore says during this segment of the movie—and take careful notes in the dark—you’ll find he’s got his facts right. He and others in the film state that 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after Sept. 13.

The date—Sept. 13—is crucial because that is when a national ban on air traffic, for security purposes, was eased

But nonetheless, many viewers will leave the movie theater with the impression that the Saudis, thanks to special treatment from the White House, were permitted to fly away when all other planes were still grounded. This false impression is created by Moore’s failure, when mentioning Sept. 13, to emphasize that the ban on flights had been eased by then. The false impression is further pushed when Moore shows the singer Ricky Martin walking around an airport and says, "Not even Ricky Martin would fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one. Except the bin Ladens."

But oen more to add to the Bush legacy: the spending (wasting might be more appropriate) of the trillion dollar emergency welfare fund set up by Clinton.

 

[Murray]

I think Japanese aggression in Asia prior to any European war, may have been the catalyst for those embargoes, so I'm saying Japan were the culprits

Actually they went looking for oil because the US had placed the embargo.
Chicken and egg stuff

 

[Murray]

And the UK was once warm enough for Roman settlers to grow grapes.

The right type of grapes can be grown in very cold climates
such as the South Island of NZ.
Tasmania (a bit warmer) grows a lot of grapes

 

[rick James]

Taken directly from the 9-11 Commission:

Fearing reprisals against Saudi nationals, the Saudi government asked for help in getting some of its citizens out of the country….we have found that the request came to the attention of Richard Clarke and that each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.

No commercial planes, including chartered flights, were permitted to fly into, out of, or within the United States until September 13, 2001. After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. We have found no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace.

The Saudi flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI, to ensure that people on these flights did not pose a threat to national security, and that nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country. Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.

 

[camsmith]

Your a clown camsmith and an apologist for Bush and Howard.

Uh yes, the old name calling. Pity you seem to think you can get away without answering my questions, yet i have to answer yours?
Apologist for Bush and Howard? More like a realist.

Do you deny the response to Katrina was slow? I see you never denied it.. but yawned as if it was old news.

I dont deny it at all, the response was slow. Kathleen Blanco (D) took an age to ask the federal government for help. I only yawned because i've been through all this before in countless other threads, The MSM was awful when covering Katrina, they saw it as just another way to get stuck into Bush, sadly they succeeded.

Do you deny that Iraq is in turmoil and the US plan of occupation of Iraq basically consisted of the US forces liberating Baghdad and the Iraqi people being so thankful they stopped fighting amongst themselves?

I dont deny that things could have been handled better in relation to Iraq, but that can be said with most wars. The second part of that question is just wrong, the Iraqi people would be thankful a guy by the name of Saddam Hussein is no longer running the place.

Do you deny Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo?... oh I forgot they are only camel rats and terrorists

You answered it yourself.

Although there have been independent commission of inquiries into both places, so what am i meant to deny?

Do you accept that Church and State , an issue so deeply felt 229 years ago they enshrined the separation of church and state within their own constitution, is now closely linked to the policies and politics of GWB?.

I feel religion is always going to play a part in politics? what are you trying to tell me? When Judeo-Christians make up over 86% of the American population.. what do you expect..

Do you accept the weakening of the UN is led by the US?

The UN is a joke. The US hasn't done anything to change how corrupt it is.

Or will you pick holes in 1 or 2 and then belittle the rest? Please show how each and every one of the OP points are false or STFU.

STFU? Why so you and your left-wing buddies have no opposition on here and can just keep jealousy ranting and raving about how the three great leaders; Bush, Blair and Howard have all been voted back into office.

So if i did STFU, what fun would that be?

 

[just maybe]

Camsmith, come back to us when your criticisms aren't gormless hyperbole.

 

[section8]

How about you read the bible for a while before complaining about nasty things written in holy books. The words "grain of salt" come to mind.
It is strange, because it's not my recollection.
We're always hearing about Chechnya.
There has been discussion of French "anti-terror" laws.
Moron. The left are always putting up "Free Tibet" signs. Yeah, the left loves the "People's Republic" dearly.
Thailand? Now there's an important country. Perhaps you're angry that we don't spend nearly enough time discussing Nigeria as well?
The US is the most powerful, and therefore important, country in the world. Their actions have the greatest effect on the world, and, as a democracy, they are expect to act with more humanity than the tin-pot dictators you'd much prefer us to concentrate on.

In other words, "The Iraqi people stand to benefit so much from having American overlords that it's only fair that those overlords should snatch the Iraqi choicest possessions for themselves."

To summarise my position, terrorism caused by greater literal interpretation and adherence to the Koran (to equivocate it's virulent hatred to the New Testament at least is crazytalk and I'm an atheist) is bad for business for EVERYONE. Ourselves, China, Europe, eskimoes and the saner countries in the ME region (I won't include Israel, otherwise this is bound to descend into a Jews Rule the World argument) will be thankful for the stability the US shall create in the long term (try to think past the suicide bombings of last month before assessing US performance so far.) The US is not going to go the way of Rome, British Empire etc by having people of your ilk usurp power.

By the way, Thailand is an extremely important country as far as South East Asia and Australia is concerned as they are battling the forces that were probably responsible for last night and the ones most likely to effect a similar attack on Australian soil. When it happens, perhaps you will then appreciate what "dhimmis" and "infidels" around the world are battling and how the time for sitting down around drinking coffee and asking our extremist friends, "Why do you hate us and how can we be better dhimmis?" has passed.

 

[just maybe]

The US is destabilising the region, not creating greater stability in the long-term.

 

[section8]

The US is destabilising the region, not creating greater stability in the long-term.

We shall see.

 

[- PC -]

We shall see.

We all truly hope so. But the track record isnt good is it?

 

[Copernicus]

To summarise my position, terrorism caused by greater literal interpretation and adherence to the Koran (to equivocate it's virulent hatred to the New Testament at least is crazytalk and I'm an atheist) is bad for business for EVERYONE. Ourselves, China, Europe, eskimoes and the saner countries in the ME region (I won't include Israel, otherwise this is bound to descend into a Jews Rule the World argument) will be thankful for the stability the US shall create in the long term (try to think past the suicide bombings of last month before assessing US performance so far.) The US is not going to go the way of Rome, British Empire etc by having people of your ilk usurp power.

By the way, Thailand is an extremely important country as far as South East Asia and Australia is concerned as they are battling the forces that were probably responsible for last night and the ones most likely to effect a similar attack on Australian soil. When it happens, perhaps you will then appreciate what "dhimmis" and "infidels" around the world are battling and how the time for sitting down around drinking coffee and asking our extremist friends, "Why do you hate us and how can we be better dhimmis?" has passed.

mmm, dimmies. Wouldn't mind some fried dimmies right about now....

 

[section8]

The right type of grapes can be grown in very cold climates
such as the South Island of NZ.
Tasmania (a bit warmer) grows a lot of grapes

Believe me, the UK had a climate closer to that of the Mediterranean back around 2500BC.

 

[section8]

mmm, dimmies. Wouldn't mind some fried dimmies right about now....

Bali has got a few at the moment. Extra crispy skin.

 

[section8]

We all truly hope so. But the track record isnt good is it?

Like WWII you mean? Like maintaining a presence in Japan and West Germany?
Those poor occupied souls there have done it hard.

 

[- PC -]

Like WWII you mean? Like maintaining a presence in Japan and West Germany?
Those poor occupied souls there have done it hard.

Add Vietnam , Sudan , Central America and iraq..each one an American clusterf...