mattys123
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Nah. He was promoted before the drafts, so he is officially part of our 2011 senior list, no matter what.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Review The Good, The bad and the Ugle - NAB Semi
- Thread starter pauly_moss
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here we go again.... the same old line about buckley. At least he got 16 possessions so we can make judgements about his disposal. For a kid who has come off a solid year of reserves football after a year off footy, I think he responded pretty well in a fairly heated contest. There were times when great packs of players were trying to get the ball out while not getting pinged...it wasnt a grand final but decisions had to be made quickly and buckley did ok..
I was surprised by mccarthy's game. He played pretty well. For someone who has been given every opportunity by the coaching staff and the bigfooty fans, I hope he can deliver soon. Last night's game was a good indication that the penny has dropped for him...
I was surprised by mccarthy's game. He played pretty well. For someone who has been given every opportunity by the coaching staff and the bigfooty fans, I hope he can deliver soon. Last night's game was a good indication that the penny has dropped for him...
Greening Magic
Club Legend
Mine similar to most.
Good:
Keefe - raw but really something to work with. Could be a real bonus by the end of the year.
J-Mac - finally showed some signs and with a bit of continuity could really improve this year.
Fasolo - did some things that indicated he could be a very good player in the future.
Leon - I think he will play some major minutes across half back this year.
Bad:
Watching a number 3 pick in the draft play so poorly. Masten must make Eagles fans pull their hair out. (add Ebert as well).
Ugly:
Buckley failed to change my mind last night. A mate of mine is a Dees supporter and when we picked him up he said I'd spend half the game screaming at him about turnovers. He was right.
Having said that he's not the worst player to have as depth if Toovs, Goldy or someone like them goes down.
Good:
Keefe - raw but really something to work with. Could be a real bonus by the end of the year.
J-Mac - finally showed some signs and with a bit of continuity could really improve this year.
Fasolo - did some things that indicated he could be a very good player in the future.
Leon - I think he will play some major minutes across half back this year.
Bad:
Watching a number 3 pick in the draft play so poorly. Masten must make Eagles fans pull their hair out. (add Ebert as well).
Ugly:
Buckley failed to change my mind last night. A mate of mine is a Dees supporter and when we picked him up he said I'd spend half the game screaming at him about turnovers. He was right.
Having said that he's not the worst player to have as depth if Toovs, Goldy or someone like them goes down.
I havent seen the game yet but there seems to be alot of love for Keefe. From the round one game and what I have seen of the swans game (halftime) I really like him.
May even slip him in the SC team (I like to try and pick 1 Collingwood player for a bench spot in each position....not rucks but I have Jolly)
The krak seems to be gathering momentum. I will have sweet satisfaction dragging up some threads from the main board around halfway thru the year....
May even slip him in the SC team (I like to try and pick 1 Collingwood player for a bench spot in each position....not rucks but I have Jolly)
The krak seems to be gathering momentum. I will have sweet satisfaction dragging up some threads from the main board around halfway thru the year....
Scodog10
Brownlow Medallist
Didn't watch the game so I just want to make comments from what I've garnered so far on here.
THE GOOD, for mine is definitely a return to form from Sharrod Wellingham the kid has the potential to be absolutely anything, but his form going into last nights game was scratchy at best. Hopefully he can back it up and have a great season because if everything clicks for him this year he's a definite chance at a top 3-5 B&F finish!
Must say the ugly is the sh*fight over Simon Buckley, the kid just ain't quite good enough. He's handy depth but in all probability won't be on the list next year. Why is everyone getting worked up over him? He is what he is....
THE GOOD, for mine is definitely a return to form from Sharrod Wellingham the kid has the potential to be absolutely anything, but his form going into last nights game was scratchy at best. Hopefully he can back it up and have a great season because if everything clicks for him this year he's a definite chance at a top 3-5 B&F finish!
Must say the ugly is the sh*fight over Simon Buckley, the kid just ain't quite good enough. He's handy depth but in all probability won't be on the list next year. Why is everyone getting worked up over him? He is what he is....
My thoughts on the game:
Firstly it was an extremely scrappy game for both sides. I don't know if West Coast usually play like that but a lot of our disposal you could tell we were playing a practice game. The positive in that was when we needed to play well in the last qtr we switched it on and had some clean and damaging plays to set up shots on goal. It was also a time when most of our senior players were on the ground at once, I can't wait to see them all playing together again.
The good:
- Pendlebury was everywhere and had a big impact on the game all over the ground.
- Krakouer was very clean with his disposal and movement, great to see him starting to settle into the side, even though he went missing for a while, when the Pies were on so was he.
- Swan while not playing all out showed he's going to have another big year.
- Keeffe was again solid in the back line and is now the obvious next in line for a key defence position. He's shown he's capable of doing a good job at AFL level.
- Wood was average but showed he was putting his body on the line again. I think he's starting to realise he has to and he has the body to do it. One example was when the ball was kicked over his head and there were players running towards the contest and he still went up for the mark.
- John McCarthy back and looking decent. The kids didn't impress me as much this game but maybe I'm getting used to their ability. They played their roles and didn't look out of depth as a whole which is a good sign.
- Nearly all the senior players look ready to go. Jolly was a little rusty but what do you expect first game back.
The bad:
- Overall our disposal was very scrappy and a fair few times we took the wrong options. I know people have been over critical of Buckley but I think his decision making this game was well below acceptable for the Pies. I don't care if his efficiency rating was high, he could have used it a lot better than long bomb to a contest.
- The goal kicking was pathetic. 1.9.17 (basically 10.17) and at least one out on the full and a fair few kicks that didn't register a score, I know it's a common problem for us but last night it was bad. I don't know if we need to take a few extra kicks to find someone in a better position or play on a bit more but continually taking shots on tight angles doesn't help.
- Rucking free kicks were a worry. I don't know if it's the Collingwood technique, a bad night or the umpires (probably a mixture) but we can't have that happen again in a H&A match.
- Injuries. No club wants injuries in a practice game, I just hope our guys pull up well.
The Ugle:
- Ugle didn't play.
Firstly it was an extremely scrappy game for both sides. I don't know if West Coast usually play like that but a lot of our disposal you could tell we were playing a practice game. The positive in that was when we needed to play well in the last qtr we switched it on and had some clean and damaging plays to set up shots on goal. It was also a time when most of our senior players were on the ground at once, I can't wait to see them all playing together again.
The good:
- Pendlebury was everywhere and had a big impact on the game all over the ground.
- Krakouer was very clean with his disposal and movement, great to see him starting to settle into the side, even though he went missing for a while, when the Pies were on so was he.
- Swan while not playing all out showed he's going to have another big year.
- Keeffe was again solid in the back line and is now the obvious next in line for a key defence position. He's shown he's capable of doing a good job at AFL level.
- Wood was average but showed he was putting his body on the line again. I think he's starting to realise he has to and he has the body to do it. One example was when the ball was kicked over his head and there were players running towards the contest and he still went up for the mark.
- John McCarthy back and looking decent. The kids didn't impress me as much this game but maybe I'm getting used to their ability. They played their roles and didn't look out of depth as a whole which is a good sign.
- Nearly all the senior players look ready to go. Jolly was a little rusty but what do you expect first game back.
The bad:
- Overall our disposal was very scrappy and a fair few times we took the wrong options. I know people have been over critical of Buckley but I think his decision making this game was well below acceptable for the Pies. I don't care if his efficiency rating was high, he could have used it a lot better than long bomb to a contest.
- The goal kicking was pathetic. 1.9.17 (basically 10.17) and at least one out on the full and a fair few kicks that didn't register a score, I know it's a common problem for us but last night it was bad. I don't know if we need to take a few extra kicks to find someone in a better position or play on a bit more but continually taking shots on tight angles doesn't help.
- Rucking free kicks were a worry. I don't know if it's the Collingwood technique, a bad night or the umpires (probably a mixture) but we can't have that happen again in a H&A match.
- Injuries. No club wants injuries in a practice game, I just hope our guys pull up well.
The Ugle:
- Ugle didn't play.
mike_
All Australian
- Feb 28, 2007
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The Good:
Tough fought out win interstate, our ability to play not nearly at our best and turn it on for a quarter or so to kick away shows that we're just a class above. That being said you wouldn't want to display that form come the start of the season.
Krakouer showed he is all class, Keefe will be a rock in defence in the coming years and boy does Thomas have some explosive afterburners.
Also how about Shae's creative tap on's, it's clear he has been studying the game quite a lot, he knows where to run to and who is nearby. Just needs to find more of the ball which will eventuate in time.
The Bad/Ugle
The only bad aspect of the game was the slow boring start at kicking inefficiency, which I remain positive will turn it self around before the season. It was clear that most players were going at half pace- I just can't wait for the real season.
Go pies!
Tough fought out win interstate, our ability to play not nearly at our best and turn it on for a quarter or so to kick away shows that we're just a class above. That being said you wouldn't want to display that form come the start of the season.
Krakouer showed he is all class, Keefe will be a rock in defence in the coming years and boy does Thomas have some explosive afterburners.
Also how about Shae's creative tap on's, it's clear he has been studying the game quite a lot, he knows where to run to and who is nearby. Just needs to find more of the ball which will eventuate in time.
The Bad/Ugle
The only bad aspect of the game was the slow boring start at kicking inefficiency, which I remain positive will turn it self around before the season. It was clear that most players were going at half pace- I just can't wait for the real season.
Go pies!
- Feb 19, 2008
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The Good:
McCarthy, classy, skilled and hard at it. Looked impressive.
Krakouer - has some outstanding attributes in sharking the packs, winning a contested ball then firing out a hand pass to a teammate. Lots to like and will improve our team significantly.
Keefe - continues to impress, very solid overhead and nice skills, just needs to bulk up and he's a very good player.
Pendles - champion.
Leon - expect him to play round 1 in defence. Don't mind his skill and run from there.
Workman-like ability to not play well again, but still account for the opposition - they were flattered by the margin and yet at full strength.
The Bad:
umpiring - every second ruck contest was a Weagles free..... tremendous. Like playing two-up with loaded coins.
The Kirk Ugle:
Dwayne Russell trying to suggest the umpires were good.
Maxy's injury.
Where's Kirk?
McCarthy, classy, skilled and hard at it. Looked impressive.
Krakouer - has some outstanding attributes in sharking the packs, winning a contested ball then firing out a hand pass to a teammate. Lots to like and will improve our team significantly.
Keefe - continues to impress, very solid overhead and nice skills, just needs to bulk up and he's a very good player.
Pendles - champion.
Leon - expect him to play round 1 in defence. Don't mind his skill and run from there.
Workman-like ability to not play well again, but still account for the opposition - they were flattered by the margin and yet at full strength.
The Bad:
umpiring - every second ruck contest was a Weagles free..... tremendous. Like playing two-up with loaded coins.
The Kirk Ugle:
Dwayne Russell trying to suggest the umpires were good.
Maxy's injury.
Where's Kirk?
Good: 3. Scott Pendlebury
2. Scott Pendlebury
1. Scott Pendlebury
(I have officially allowed myself one future day of crying if he goes to GWS)
Bad: Our rucking. Jolly is not as good as most of our supporters think. He is so much better than anything we have had in the past 10 years, but everytime Jolly has come up against the highest quality opposition he has not only been beaten, but absolutely thrashed. (see Jamar, Sandilands last year) With Cox fit again this year, he steps another level down. He started rusty last year, and I think it might just be the norm for him, but his efforts were bordering on ludicrous. (Wood was not better) I know you're going to talk about him winning us the flag with a great GF2 last year, but he was poor in GF1 against Justin freakin Kositzche, and had 3 possies against Geelong in the Prelim. Overrated. A good footballer, not a great one.
Ugly: Jye Bolton, Ben Sinclair and Shae MacNammara, had hopes for them to play some seniors this year until this match.
Keefe was ok, but he still has a lot of awareness issues. Caused 2 goals by attacking the wrong side of the man in a tackling situation. They were two goals that shouldn't have happened. Love him in the air and I think he is a good battler on the ground (especially for his size), but he just needs more matches to learn the nuances of the game.
McCarthy did one really good thing (the Luke Ballish handball/goal assist) but he really wasn't overly impressive to me. I thought he had more of a role playing out on the wing, and that not having Beams or Sidebottom out there made us weaker. Mind you, considering I thought he was still out injured and it was his first game there is definite improvement. If he makes it as an AFL footballer for Collingwood I will be pleasantly surprised.
Blair was ordinary, I thought. A couple of good things but he was playing on Priddis for a lot of the night, and Priddis killed us.
Krakouer has nearly as much time and poise as Pendles, and that's saying something. I worry that he will be played too much in the forward line because he seems to me to be clearly a midfielder. He can rest and rotate up forward, but he is not great at chasing and pressuring and that is an area we need to remain great at. It's good in a way though, I was really hoping Dick still has a role in the side, and after watching the preseason, if his shoulders stay together, I think he will be.
As for the Buckley debate, he clearly looks like a man used to playing VFL football. I think he has the skills but whether he can perform them under the duress in a game is the big question mark. I like him though and I think he has improved with every NAB game. He will be one we will know more about after the NAB GF on Friday, Essendon have been great in their forward defensive pressure.
We missed Heath Shaw. So much steadier down back when he is there. Leon might be great at rebounding, and he definitely keeps his head back there, but I still think you can't have outside players, unwilling to get hit, take the tackle/body contact, playing in the backline. He certainly has the tackling pressure, but there are times his desperation levels are not fitting of our premiership quality defense.
2. Scott Pendlebury
1. Scott Pendlebury
(I have officially allowed myself one future day of crying if he goes to GWS)
Bad: Our rucking. Jolly is not as good as most of our supporters think. He is so much better than anything we have had in the past 10 years, but everytime Jolly has come up against the highest quality opposition he has not only been beaten, but absolutely thrashed. (see Jamar, Sandilands last year) With Cox fit again this year, he steps another level down. He started rusty last year, and I think it might just be the norm for him, but his efforts were bordering on ludicrous. (Wood was not better) I know you're going to talk about him winning us the flag with a great GF2 last year, but he was poor in GF1 against Justin freakin Kositzche, and had 3 possies against Geelong in the Prelim. Overrated. A good footballer, not a great one.
Ugly: Jye Bolton, Ben Sinclair and Shae MacNammara, had hopes for them to play some seniors this year until this match.
Keefe was ok, but he still has a lot of awareness issues. Caused 2 goals by attacking the wrong side of the man in a tackling situation. They were two goals that shouldn't have happened. Love him in the air and I think he is a good battler on the ground (especially for his size), but he just needs more matches to learn the nuances of the game.
McCarthy did one really good thing (the Luke Ballish handball/goal assist) but he really wasn't overly impressive to me. I thought he had more of a role playing out on the wing, and that not having Beams or Sidebottom out there made us weaker. Mind you, considering I thought he was still out injured and it was his first game there is definite improvement. If he makes it as an AFL footballer for Collingwood I will be pleasantly surprised.
Blair was ordinary, I thought. A couple of good things but he was playing on Priddis for a lot of the night, and Priddis killed us.
Krakouer has nearly as much time and poise as Pendles, and that's saying something. I worry that he will be played too much in the forward line because he seems to me to be clearly a midfielder. He can rest and rotate up forward, but he is not great at chasing and pressuring and that is an area we need to remain great at. It's good in a way though, I was really hoping Dick still has a role in the side, and after watching the preseason, if his shoulders stay together, I think he will be.
As for the Buckley debate, he clearly looks like a man used to playing VFL football. I think he has the skills but whether he can perform them under the duress in a game is the big question mark. I like him though and I think he has improved with every NAB game. He will be one we will know more about after the NAB GF on Friday, Essendon have been great in their forward defensive pressure.
We missed Heath Shaw. So much steadier down back when he is there. Leon might be great at rebounding, and he definitely keeps his head back there, but I still think you can't have outside players, unwilling to get hit, take the tackle/body contact, playing in the backline. He certainly has the tackling pressure, but there are times his desperation levels are not fitting of our premiership quality defense.
Neither side actually looked good considering they put away sides easily. Saints looked flat, Eagles looked inept by foot.
Thomas was in about 2nd gear.
Pendlebury shocking haircut.
Fully expect you to come out & run through us by 4 or 5 goals.
Didn't mind McCarthy, but I was half-cut and only saw about half an hour. Did 2 or 3 good things. Blair's put on a bit, angry little ant now.
Thomas was in about 2nd gear.
Pendlebury shocking haircut.
Fully expect you to come out & run through us by 4 or 5 goals.
Didn't mind McCarthy, but I was half-cut and only saw about half an hour. Did 2 or 3 good things. Blair's put on a bit, angry little ant now.
Krak's hands, reading of the play and evasive abilities are sublime. As a midfielder he adds another demention to our inside game. S.O'B as an inside mid was one who always used smarts and reading of the play over pace or physicality, the difference was once S.O'B got it, he often had to use strength to take a tackle and get it off where as the Krak seems to have the ability to work his way through the traffic. With Ball, Pendles, Krak and Shaz their is a fantastic dynamic and variety to our stoppages.
Keeffe did give up a couple of goals with basic defensive decision making errors but he did a good job on a very good foward in Kennedy so I'd take that as another win.
Wood has on field brain fades like no other footballer I can think of, the biggest and most memorable gaff was the non-contest on the goal line either early last year or late 2009. Being called into shepard and not laying and communicating that shepard isn't up to that standard but it's still pretty poor. Just needs to stay mentally engaged in the game far more then he does.
Keeffe did give up a couple of goals with basic defensive decision making errors but he did a good job on a very good foward in Kennedy so I'd take that as another win.
Wood has on field brain fades like no other footballer I can think of, the biggest and most memorable gaff was the non-contest on the goal line either early last year or late 2009. Being called into shepard and not laying and communicating that shepard isn't up to that standard but it's still pretty poor. Just needs to stay mentally engaged in the game far more then he does.
Quicky
Brownlow Medallist
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Just a couple of notes:
Wellingham - I'm surprised more people havn't made mention of his game. Almost BOG if it weren't for an unbelievable game from Pendles. His form this preseason has been dicey but he exploded in this game. Quick, evasive, good in close, creative, good overhead, game breaker.
Keeffe - Is going to be a good player for us. Out pointed Kennedy who is one of the best KPF in the league. Yes he made two basic defensive errors but they should be easily ironed out. He'll learn from them. Love his work in the air and on the deck. Will be a feature of our defense sooner than later I suspect.
Dawes - Was really impressed with Dawes. I'm astounded how much he has improved his overhead marking. He is now developing a real onfield presence.
Wellingham - I'm surprised more people havn't made mention of his game. Almost BOG if it weren't for an unbelievable game from Pendles. His form this preseason has been dicey but he exploded in this game. Quick, evasive, good in close, creative, good overhead, game breaker.
Keeffe - Is going to be a good player for us. Out pointed Kennedy who is one of the best KPF in the league. Yes he made two basic defensive errors but they should be easily ironed out. He'll learn from them. Love his work in the air and on the deck. Will be a feature of our defense sooner than later I suspect.
Dawes - Was really impressed with Dawes. I'm astounded how much he has improved his overhead marking. He is now developing a real onfield presence.
TradeDraft
Post-Human
Even took one on Darren Glass
Agree on all points, Wellingham was great and is great, Pendles has a habit of tearing the WCE midfield apart in pre-season matches.
More then anything the presence of Dawes (which obviously stems largely from confidence in his aerial ability) is what impressed me. This was the first time (and often against good opposition) that he really looked like a true KPF target. A guy who demanded the ball and drew defenders, caused neutral / spillages to advantage and really threw his weight around to influence the contest. Great signs from the big fella and exactly the kind of thing he needs to do / I have been critical of in the past.
Krak & Pendles in tandem in the midfield is just great to watch. Must play Krak in the middle!
Dawes was imposing, so important for the structure of our side, straightens us up.
I think we struggled on the bigger ground, a lot harder to apply zone pressure etc.
Keefe showed a lot of promise as a key defender, has a role to play for us in 2011 I think.
The injuries sucked, disappointed for young Hunter, looked good early on had a real crack.
Probably the only time we will see Wood & Jolly in the same team this year.
Johnson played OK, but I can see him being squeezed out like Lockyer last year. He is a handy player to be able to call up. Ironically I think its Davis who may push him out as Davis can provide a bit more dash, creativity & quality disposal by foot off the HBF.
Dawes was imposing, so important for the structure of our side, straightens us up.
I think we struggled on the bigger ground, a lot harder to apply zone pressure etc.
Keefe showed a lot of promise as a key defender, has a role to play for us in 2011 I think.
The injuries sucked, disappointed for young Hunter, looked good early on had a real crack.
Probably the only time we will see Wood & Jolly in the same team this year.
Johnson played OK, but I can see him being squeezed out like Lockyer last year. He is a handy player to be able to call up. Ironically I think its Davis who may push him out as Davis can provide a bit more dash, creativity & quality disposal by foot off the HBF.
I think the bigger problem we had with the bigger ground was with the movement foward, we got caught out more often then I can remember for a long time with no numbers in the foward line.
Wellingham had that awesome moment when he mauled his opponent came up with the ball and then hoped out of a tackle before running away. It definitely was a much better display from him. But still there is a lot of room for improvement in his game. He dropped a simple collect on a brilliant ball movement just before the fwd50 when, if he collects like any league footballer should, we kick a goal. Plus there was another moment when he ran towards attacking 50 and chose to kick instead of a simple handball over to a couple of free players. Think the brilliance of his good moments tends to make people forget the blunders that he makes. Still it is the preseason and he is only a 52 game player, lots of hope he can get to AA quality.
I've been astounded by how well Dawes has improved for a bloke who really hasn't played much senior footy. Would love to see Dick and Dawes two out inside 50 a lot this season!!
Wellingham certainly has room for improvement no arguement there.
As for playing Dick and Dawes two out it won't and can't happen. Modern football is to good defensively for it to work. Teams don't defend one on one, they defend areas. What that means is if you play 2 or even 4 fowards they are going to be competiting with 2 on 1's more often then not.
More and more often with the current frontal pressure zone that is the trend in football goal kickers are found running towards goal rather then leading up too the ball.
As for playing Dick and Dawes two out it won't and can't happen. Modern football is to good defensively for it to work. Teams don't defend one on one, they defend areas. What that means is if you play 2 or even 4 fowards they are going to be competiting with 2 on 1's more often then not.
More and more often with the current frontal pressure zone that is the trend in football goal kickers are found running towards goal rather then leading up too the ball.
- Oct 16, 2010
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GOOD:
Pentelbury (earned a spot in my DreamTeam)
Blair
Dawes
AVERAGE:
Swan
Cloke
Krakour
Davis
BAD:
Jolly
Wood
BTW, if you think that Jarryd Blair is small at 175cm, have you seen Ryan Neates on the Eagles' list? He's only 169cm tall.
Pentelbury (earned a spot in my DreamTeam
)Blair
Dawes
AVERAGE:
Swan
Cloke
Krakour
Davis
BAD:
Jolly
Wood
BTW, if you think that Jarryd Blair is small at 175cm, have you seen Ryan Neates on the Eagles' list? He's only 169cm tall.
Yeah it was a bit of wishful thinking, I was just alluding to the fact that Dawes is a clever big man who now uses his body brilliantly and Dick is a magnificent rover, would be great to see them team up!! Really hoping we see Dick in the NAB cup Grand Final. I think he will definitely bring something extra to this side.
- Nov 28, 2005
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Yes Simon Buckley was very good indeed. Definitely one of the best six Collingwood players on the night. His run was good, and his decision making was better, and to have 11 kicks, 7 handpasses and 5 marks at 83% disposal efficiency and only 2 clangers makes anybody willing to criticise him look like a bit of a goose.
Well summed up. Some people need a whipping boy. It was Alan Toovey a couple of years ago, then it was Shane O'Bree, and now it appears to be Simon Buckley for some unknown reason.
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J-Mac has shown plenty of signs over last couple of years, just has been getting injuries al the time. If he can get out of Rusling mode he has great presence and will be a Great midfielder for us up with Swan Pendles Thomo and co. Might even become the new N Buckley (...yeah I know, I know....)
This is where stats lie. Anyone who watched the game could see what Buckley was doing, which was kicking it long to a contest and not to players on the lead or by themselves closer to him. On top of that a long kick as long as it's not a direct turnover is classed as effective, even if it goes to a 1 on 3 contest and spills to an opposition player. Same with a handball which goes to a player and that player then runs out of room/gets tackled.
I'm not a Simon Buckley basher but IMO he didn't play well on the weekend and he is far from becoming a senior player, and that's mostly down to his decision making.
O
Old Spice
Guest
Can't wait to see Blair rag-doll him.
What is all this fapping over McCarthy - delisted at the end of the year I hope.
Can anyone say "list-clogger".
I've never seen a home and away game he's played in where less than 70% of his disposals weren't hospital passes.
Can anyone say "list-clogger".
I've never seen a home and away game he's played in where less than 70% of his disposals weren't hospital passes.
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