The Liberal Party - How long? - Part 2

[Saint]

The conservative narrative long ago switched to selfishness above just "low-regulation".

Not happy with just lower "taxes for me", they're also pursing "as little as possible for thee". "we'll pay for our own education, subsidised by Govt, of course but yours can only be bare bones".

Education is only funded for the purposes of feeding business needs.

Everyone complains about the difficulty of the tax codes and rates, but they've been made unnecessarily difficult by rich people for their own benefit, who then complain about it and want it "simplified" which means lower top tax rates, apparently, without removing any of their loopholes (by "they", I mean in their business taxes and also personal, plus super).

The tax complications can be boiled down to: Lots of loopholes for rich people to avoid paying the rate intended.

 

[Home Alone]

Lots of loopholes for rich people to avoid paying the rate intended.

They aren't loopholes. Think of them as 'features' of our tax system

 

[Number37]

2. HOW they paid that little in tax, nearly always through legal means

"nearly always"???

Most tax deductions are for behaviours that at one stage or another, governments have felt fit to encourage through tax law. So lets hear what deductions are being used, and why they shouldn't be allowed, before we rage about "fair" taxation.

LOL.

section 8.1 GENERAL DEDUCTIONS.
Expenses incurred in deriving assessable income ( or carrying on a business) are deductible.

No mention of what govts want in that section.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The Liberal party being done in by their property developer mates is just too funny.

Take two old LNP voters, they move out, their house gets bulldozed, 12 apartments get built and 20 young people move in.

Happens everywhere across the Inner suburbs. Replace 2 LNP voters with 20 young people who will not vote for the LNP in a million years

 

[Crankyhawk]

It's also the current Government who are proceeding with the stage 3 tax cuts, which disproportionately benefit higher income earners (including myself).

Honestly can't understand how any current tax policies can be considered the fault of the LNP. Albo has presided over 2 budgets since taking power, if he wanted to do something different, he's had ample opportunity.

It’s exaggerated political fear of junking them. Not to mention self interest.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I want to keep more of my pay packet = dumb.

Do you do anything to deserve to keep more of that pay packet? Are you for example demanding less services or less support for others?

And it’s not dumb. It’s greedy.

Edit that wasn’t meant to come across as personal, more a challenge to the view of “I wanna keep more of my money”

 

[Crankyhawk]

Firstly, you need to define what "pay their share" means. They are currently paying the tax they are levied according to the law.

Then you need to convince people to vote for the party that will make them "pay their share".

People wanting to keep more of the money they earn is not a learned behaviour.

Laws were written before money found ways to hide via multinational bullshit.

 

[kickazz]

The Liberal party being done in by their property developer mates is just too funny.

Take two old LNP voters, they move out, their house gets bulldozed, 12 apartments get built and 20 young people move in.

Happens everywhere across the Inner suburbs. Replace 2 LNP voters with 20 young people who will not vote for the LNP in a million years

This is interesting. I think of places like Port Melbourne and Albert Park, which have strong working class ALP backgrounds but are getting pretty rich now, and wonder when the Libs will gain ground.

The apartment thing (which needs to happen) will probably mean that LNP will continue to have to focus on outer suburbs and regions. Even then they don't offer much at the moment.

 

[kickazz]

The "I want to keep more of my money" argument is ostensibly valid when looking at the short term affect it has psychologically.

With LTMIO going away, many many Aussies will be about a grand worse off this tax time. In that precise moment, no one is happy.

But. This stimulus has been a factor in supermarket prices going up. This pisses people off on a regular basis, not once a year. And it will only be worse with stage 3 cuts.

Waiting ages at hospitals, etc also is only experienced from time to time, but the pernicious effects of under funded services is slowly being felt by more and more people.

And with more people renting than ever - how many of them think neg gearing tax avoidance is a good idea? (Don't give me that baloney that rents go up without it).

In summary, anyone with the ability to spend five minutes thinking about the big picture will understand that now is not the time to lower taxes. Political parties who puport to be responsible economic managers would see this too, but they currently haven't got the guts (ALP) to do anything about it, or the brains (LNP) to understand it.

 

[QuietB]

The "I want to keep more of my money" argument is ostensibly valid when looking at the short term affect it has psychologically.

With LTMIO going away, many many Aussies will be about a grand worse off this tax time. In that precise moment, no one is happy.

But. This stimulus has been a factor in supermarket prices going up. This pisses people off on a regular basis, not once a year. And it will only be worse with stage 3 cuts.

Waiting ages at hospitals, etc also is only experienced from time to time, but the pernicious effects of under funded services is slowly being felt by more and more people.

And with more people renting than ever - how many of them think neg gearing tax avoidance is a good idea? (Don't give me that baloney that rents go up without it).

In summary, anyone with the ability to spend five minutes thinking about the big picture will understand that now is not the time to lower taxes. Political parties who puport to be responsible economic managers would see this too, but they currently haven't got the guts (ALP) to do anything about it, or the brains (LNP) to understand it.

As Alan Kohler on the ABC said - political parties don’t lower taxes because it makes economic sense, they do it because it is popular.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

The Liberal party being done in by their property developer mates is just too funny.

Take two old LNP voters, they move out, their house gets bulldozed, 12 apartments get built and 20 young people move in.

Happens everywhere across the Inner suburbs. Replace 2 LNP voters with 20 young people who will not vote for the LNP in a million years

Maybe that's why the inner suburbs are NIMBYs.
The "smart" Liberals know they're stuffed.

 

[Kwality]

Laws were written before money found ways to hide via multinational bullshit.

The international/multinational bs has been around for 50 years that is my own experience.

People need to take a dose of reality before they criticise the tax system.

 

[Kwality]

And with more people renting than ever - how many of them think neg gearing tax avoidance is a good idea? (Don't give me that baloney that rents go up without it).

Thats the hip pocket nerve in play.
I pay rent, I want it to cost less, the landlord has plenty of money, take money from them & give it to me.

Its not greed by the renter, its human nature.

 

[Crankyhawk]

The international/multinational bs has been around for 50 years that is my own experience.

People need to take a dose of reality before they criticise the tax system.

and what has the governments/ tax system tried to do to fix it?
needs to be a way to crush multinationals as they are not paying fair share in any way shape or form

but control what we can control which means don't cave to bring in some very dumb**** tax cuts...

 

[Kwality]

and what has the governments/ tax system tried to do to fix it?
needs to be a way to crush multinationals as they are not paying fair share in any way shape or form

but control what we can control which means don't cave to bring in some very dumb* tax cuts...

It is recognised by Governments the World over.
IMHO, it is not addressed successfully because low tax regimes benefit from it (more dollars collected) & higher taxing regimes miss out - guess who is for & against dealing with the problem.

Toss in political ideology, what hope of any effective resolution.

 

[The Punter]

If Alan Kohler posted on here, he'd be attacked for stating the obvious.

My comment wasn't a critique on taxes, or an endorsement of an appropriate tax level, or a comment on how governments do things. It was an observation of human nature. Nothing more.

 

[Gough]

Funny how the frailty of human nature is constantly trotted as a reason for Marxism failing and why it shouldn't ever happen again but never for the increasing and obvious failings of neo liberalism.

 

[The Punter]

Funny how the frailty of human nature is constantly trotted as a reason for Marxism failing and why it shouldn't ever happen again but never for the increasing and obvious failings of neo liberalism.

As always, as a mod, you should know how to use the reply or quote button.

And you introduced frailty into the conversation. And the trotting out you mention doesn't come from me. If you can find a comment from me criticising either ideology you mention, you can quote me.

 

[Number37]

If Alan Kohler posted on here, he'd be attacked for stating the obvious.

My comment wasn't a critique on taxes, or an endorsement of an appropriate tax level, or a comment on how governments do things. It was an observation of human nature. Nothing more.

What's human nature got to do with taxing multinationals appropriately?

 

[The Punter]

What's human nature got to do with taxing multinationals appropriately?

I don't know. What? I believe the only mention I have made that's related to that is that the tax code needs simplifying.

What does taxing multinationals appropriately look like? Please, if you can, provide design details and something more in depth than "more tax than they pay now".

 

[Number37]

I don't know. What? I believe the only mention I have made that's related to that is that the tax code needs simplifying.

What does taxing multinationals appropriately look like? Please, if you can, provide design details and something more in depth than "more tax than they pay now".

Do you think multinationals are taxed appropriately, as it stands?
On what basis do you think multinationals are currently taxed appropriately?

IMO,
It is obvious that multinationals are not currently taxed appropriately because ALL of them are reporting massive profits elsewhere.
Taking Apple as an example: They use transfer pricing and payments labelled as entreprenurial fees to avoid paying tax.

Under Part IVA you can't enter into a scheme where the dominant purpose is to avoid paying tax.
Transfer pricing and entrepreneurial fees IMO is a scheme with the dominant purpose of avoiding tax.
Yes, a difficult argument to make in a court, but, without question, the dominant purpose of the schemes multinationals use are to avoid paying tax.
Apple doesn't end up with billions in cash at the same time as supposedly not making profits in any jurisdiction where they are required to pay a fair share of tax.

 

[Saint]

Punter is right. People with wealth will try to protect it.

People don't really point out the failings of neo-liberalism as much as they do socialism.

Neo-liberalism to describe what's going on in the western world is a bit of a misnomer. It's not really that new. It's practically feudalism re-born. Just as feudalism exploded when kingdoms were big enough that the person at the top had enough power to enforce it, so is neo-liberalism.

The end result of the current policy settings is that more and more of a proportion of wealth is concentrated at the top and more and more people are born into a situation where providing a roof over their head and food and basic necessities takes all of their lot and there's very little chance to move out of that situation.

There really only one type of neo-liberal Liberal Party member, those born into wealth who only grow up in an existence where protecting that wealth and having others grow it on their behalf while patting themselves on the back (Frydenberg, Turnbull, Abbott are all good examples). It seems like 1st generation wealthy people - those who earned the wealth in their own lifetime don't become neo-liberals, probably just their grandchildren will recognise that the best chance of being rich is to protect what their grandparents have bestowed upon them and devote much of their time and money to that.

Most of the rest of the party aren't even neo-liberalists, but they implement neo-liberal policies because it serves those who pay the bills (Minerals Council, business council). Morrison and others and other zealots are social-conservatives who are useful to the neo-libs in that they convince working-class Australians to vote against their financial interests for perceived social benefits.

The thing is that as more and more wealth is protected and centralised there are fewer and fewer people with an interest in protecting it.

When 90% of the population doesn't benefit from this wealth protection and only 20% (and shrinking) can be moved by social-conservatism, there's very little room for conservatives to move. The ones who pay the bills aren't about to let neo-liberalist policies go just to please the zealots.

 

[Not Important]

how is it the reactionaries manage to pick and promote such dishonest nuffies. the party that just keeps on giving.

 

[QuietB]

how is it the reactionaries manage to pick and promote such dishonest nuffies. the party that just keeps on giving.

Why the hell are the federal Libera;s doing state politics again?

If you want to do state politics become a state politician.

 

[Kwality]

Why the hell are the federal Libera;s doing state politics again?

If you want to do state politics become a state politician.

Could it be the Feds money that has been p155'd against the wall ?

Information on Senate Committees and getting involved

Getting involved

www.aph.gov.au

Just a tactic to expose the shonks Vics Opposition (a generic term only) is incapable of exposing, with a media unwilling to go there.
Shades of the rust bucket Cain to Kirner management of Victoria that delivered the Kennett era.