The Nuclear debate

[peetoo]

Dollar shop scomo talks about Dutton will have a mandate to go nuclear if voted in.

So don’t labor have a mandate now to not, but increase renewables responsibly?

Can we not say wide changes in energy investment policy every 3 years is madness?

Power generation is a state matter too. Did any state govt ever get a mandate to sell it off? Would the neocons agree Dan Andrews got a mandate to re nationalise power then? The SEC?

 

[rjslcM]

I used an electric vehicle to travel across France and Germany last week. I know that Germany uses coal and France uses nuclear. The price of electricity was double in Germany compared to France.

Even if it was as black and white as the scenario I have just presented; I’m certainly not an advocate for nuclear fission in Australia, particularly with ITER’s nuclear fusion project almost coming to fruition in south-eastern France. Having fission plants completed in Australia by 2037 would be just in time to lock ourselves in to an inferior technology than what should be available when fusion should be ready. If a nuclear fission program isn’t rolled out, then we continue burning coal. If it is rolled out, then perhaps then the mining companies could continue to mine uranium meanwhile Europe transfers to nuclear fusion which simply requires… seawater.

 

[rjslcM]

Further to the last point…

How much would a full energy transition to renewables (with firming via batteries and back up generators) affect our future prosperity as a nation?

Currently almost all of our coal used in steel making processes (coking coal) is exported, and 70% of our coal used for generating electricity (thermal/steaming coal) is exported. This means 30% of our steaming coal is used for our energy production or reserves. I don’t think that a full transition to renewables would be the ‘death’ of coal mines. Even after those countries in Asia which import our coal follow suit, there is still a need for coking coal. The Bowen Basin contains both.

Yes, coal is a major export of ours, but shutting down coal-fired power plants in Australia won’t shut down coal mining.

Onwards with the renewables.

 

[nut]

Further to the last point…

How much would a full energy transition to renewables (with firming via batteries and back up generators) affect our future prosperity as a nation?

Currently almost all of our coal used in steel making processes (coking coal) is exported, and 70% of our coal used for generating electricity (thermal/steaming coal) is exported. This means 30% of our steaming coal is used for our energy production or reserves. I don’t think that a full transition to renewables would be the ‘death’ of coal mines. Even after those countries in Asia which import our coal follow suit, there is still a need for coking coal. The Bowen Basin contains both.

Yes, coal is a major export of ours, but shutting down coal-fired power plants in Australia won’t shut down coal mining.

Onwards with the renewables.

Have you read Bluescope steels statement?

 

[Forward Press]

I used an electric vehicle to travel across France and Germany last week. I know that Germany uses coal and France uses nuclear. The price of electricity was double in Germany compared to France.

Even if it was as black and white as the scenario I have just presented; I’m certainly not an advocate for nuclear fission in Australia, particularly with ITER’s nuclear fusion project almost coming to fruition in south-eastern France. Having fission plants completed in Australia by 2037 would be just in time to lock ourselves in to an inferior technology than what should be available when fusion should be ready. If a nuclear fission program isn’t rolled out, then we continue burning coal. If it is rolled out, then perhaps then the mining companies could continue to mine uranium meanwhile Europe transfers to nuclear fusion which simply requires… seawater.

Fusion has been developing since the 1950s. It is also still largely theoretical (commercial fusion plants, that is) and I bet my life savings and my first born son that it won't be ready on a commercial scale in just 12 years.

And - hear me out - what if we do something else in the transition to cleaner energy? Like - say - building up the solar and wind network? I heard rumours they have even less carbon emissions than nuclear

 

[nut]

A balanced discussion on nuclear

 

[DangerousD]

Is it not a coincidence that Gina Rhineheart ages ago started pushing that Australia needs to go nuclear to meet emissions targets and the big Pete comes out with this BS idea?

Pete that has been going to Gina’s parties as a guest speaker and Gina who owns all of Australia’s uranium mines

 

[rjslcM]

Have you read Bluescope steels statement?

Financial statement?

 

[rjslcM]

Fusion has been developing since the 1950s. It is also still largely theoretical (commercial fusion plants, that is) and I bet my life savings and my first born son that it won't be ready on a commercial scale in just 12 years.

And - hear me out - what if we do something else in the transition to cleaner energy? Like - say - building up the solar and wind network? I heard rumours they have even less carbon emissions than nuclear

Fusion has been developing since the 1950s. It is also still largely theoretical (commercial fusion plants, that is) and I bet my life savings and my first born son that it won't be ready on a commercial scale in just 12 years.

And - hear me out - what if we do something else in the transition to cleaner energy? Like - say - building up the solar and wind network? I heard rumours they have even less carbon emissions than nuclear

On a commercial scale - no. But within the lifetime of the proposed nuclear fission reactors, I’d take the bet.

I’m with you - primarily (90%+) renewables, stabilised using battery storage, and some backup generation via gas for the remaining <10% seems possible within the next 12-15.

 

[Punt rd end]

I was surprised at how many nuclear accidents there have been

List of nuclear power accidents by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TheEscapeClub]

No. The modern Liberal Party has discovered that there is very good money to be made in very big public contracts.

Corruption has taken over the LNP.

Ya having a laugh surely, are you paying attention to what's happening here in Rust Bucket Victoria?

 

[TheEscapeClub]

What’s the water supply like at Port Augusta? Do they have a spare 24billions litres of fresh water?

The could pump it from Victoria's $35b desalination plant that doesn't get used.

 

[QuietB]

Ya having a laugh surely, are you paying attention to what's happening here in Rust Bucket Victoria?

 

[TheEscapeClub]

View attachment 2029801

 

[nut]

cost of decommissioning

 

[CD Xbow]

I know I have been banging on a bit about the waste issue, this article linked below from The conversation details it more. It also has a paragraph that starts with a truth that needs to be spelt out before any discussion ls had about nuclear industry.

'No permanent and safe storage for high-level nuclear waste is yet in operation.'

Nuclear energy creates the most dangerous form of radioactive waste. Where does Peter Dutton plan to put it?

Nuclear power stations produce high-level radioactive waste. It is dangerous for hundreds of thousands of years — and so far, the world has failed to deliver a safe, permanent storage method.

theconversation.com

Why make a problem that lasts thousands of years when we don't have to?

 

[Pie eyed]

"Another energy advisory, Lazard from the US, calculated the levelised cost of nuclear and renewables – which means the average net present cost of electricity generation for a generator over its lifetime. It found that one-megawatt hour from solar power, including back-up storage, costs between $72 to $160 per megawatt hour, while a traditional nuclear plant costs from $220 to $347."

The total cost of rooftop solar will also plummet as take-up increases and panel and battery technology advances.
Nuclear will only ever increase as the build and running costs which increase over time.

The only real hope for Nuclear long term economically is if we can get "fusion" reactors to work viably.
This would be the "Holy Grail" of energy production, with the theoretical possibility of powering an entire city on a teaspoon of water.

Fusion is yet to be realised let alone harnessed.

Fission Reactors are already being phased out in many countries.

 

[Pie eyed]

Having fission plants completed in Australia by 2037 would be just in time to lock ourselves in to an inferior technology than what should be available when fusion should be ready.

Echoes of the moronic Liberal roll out of the copper NBN.

Guess which network now requires a complete upgrade to fibre, less than 9 Years after the most expensive network upgrade in Australian history?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The only real hope for Nuclear long term economically is if we can get "fusion" reactors to work viably.
This would be the "Holy Grail" of energy production, with the theoretical possibility of powering an entire city on a teaspoon of water.

Fusion is yet to be realised let alone harnessed.

The joke about fusion is that it's always 30 years away. Beautiful concept though, and the half life of its waste is only 12 years rather than thousands, so it won't remain hazardous after about a century.

 

[peetoo]

Echoes of the moronic Liberal roll out of the copper NBN.

Guess which network now requires a complete upgrade to fibre, less than 9 Years after the most expensive network upgrade in Australian history?

And all the usual suspects lined up behind them, finding technical critiques of fibre optics.

Wasn’t it going to be replaced by 5g? Now the cookers have decided that’s woke too

Woke bing anything they decided they don’t like

 

[Not Important]

sad that proper journalism like this is few and far between. of course, mckenzie couldn’t navigate a revolving door.

 

[nut]

So many Furphys

 

[nut]

Who ever is for Nuclear, please watch this and if you can debunk anything that they have put forward And can prove nuclear is viable than show us.

 

[peetoo]

Just a waste of everyone’s time

 

[CD Xbow]

Another SMR has been cancelled, this time by the French. They wanted to get an SMR to produce electricity at $161/mW but couldn't. SMR's remain pixie dust, which the coalition are promoting as their future energy strategy. I don't think we should depend on pixie dust to keep the lights on.

French nuclear giant scraps SMR plans due to soaring costs, will start over

French nuclear giant has scrapped its plans for small modular reactors, and decided to start over after customers raised concerns about costs.

reneweconomy.com.au

The article also talks of some of the issues the French are having with nuclear energy, which proponents here hold up as a poster boy for the benefits of nuclear.

"...because of the costs, it expects to significantly reduce the share of nuclear in its energy mix as it focuses more on large scale solar and offshore wind.

EdF has run into similar problems with its large scale technology. The Flammanville project in France was announced in 2004 with a budget of €3 billion and a deadline of 2012. It is still not in operation and its costs have soared at least four-fold to €13.2 billion.

The Hinkley C project in the UK has been an even bigger disaster. EdF had promised in 2007 that it would be “cooking Christmas turkeys” in England by 2017, at a cost of £9 billion, but is already delayed to 2031 with a spiralling cost of £48 billion when inflation is taken into account, or $A93 billion.

EdF announced another impairment charge of €12.9 billion ($A20.7 billion) from Hinkley earlier this year. It had to be bailed out by the government last year after suffering record losses in 2022 caused by outages at nearly half of its nuclear power plants due to maintenance at its reactors across France."

The coalition nuclear policy is simply nonsense, based on ideology rather than facts. It exposes Australia to huge risks and expense without any chance of reducing our CO2 emissions to meet targets. As poster have said earlier, it only makes sense if you want to keep the coal plants burning as long as possible and maximise the profits.

Note that cold, old Europe had managed 50% renewables for first time in first half of 2024, with Germany at 65%.

EU surpasses 50 pct renewable power share for first time in first half of 2024, Germany at 65 pct

Eurelectric has released figures showing that 50 per cent of public electricity generation in the EU came from renewables for the first time in the first half of 2024.

reneweconomy.com.au