The Nuclear debate

[nut]

The reason why Dudden is proposing tax payers foot the bill for his stupidity is that nuclear will not be able to compete on the wholesale spot price against renewables…
Nuclear will be competing against renewables 24/7… ITS NOT VIABLE!!! thats why no private enterprise wants to go near it.

So when the spotprice is negative, which is occurring regularly m, how do you turn down Nuclear????! You can’t and even if you could , what’s the point!?? Why build something you don’t need.
So the tax payer is going to pay to build the nuclear plant and pay to export the power into the grid that doesn’t need it!!!.
And then in 50 odd years pay billions to decommission it!!!
It’s beyond stupid….

There is no debate … nuclear in Australia is just DUMB.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The reason why Dudden is proposing tax payers foot the bill for his stupidity is that nuclear will not be able to compete on the wholesale spot price against renewables…
Nuclear will be competing against renewables 24/7… ITS NOT VIABLE!!! thats why no private enterprise wants to go near it.

So when the spotprice is negative, which is occurring regularly m, how do you turn down Nuclear????! You can’t and even if you could , what’s the point!?? Why build something you don’t need.
So the tax payer is going to pay to build the nuclear plant and pay to export the power into the grid that doesn’t need it!!!.
And then in 50 odd years pay billions to decommission it!!!
It’s beyond stupid….

There is no debate … nuclear in Australia is just DUMB.

You can in fact turn down nuclear.

https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12/technical_and_economic_aspects_of_load_following_with_nuclear_power_plants.pdf

How do you turn down nuclear? Not that difficult. Do some reading.

 

[nut]

You can in fact turn down nuclear.

https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12/technical_and_economic_aspects_of_load_following_with_nuclear_power_plants.pdf

How do you turn down nuclear? Not that difficult. Do some reading.

Well you can’t turn it down and make it viable at the same time.
What’s the point?
Are you advocating having nuclear as a back up energy source? It doesn’t make sense.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Well you can’t turn it down and make it viable at the same time.
What’s the point?
Are you advocating having nuclear as a back up energy source? It doesn’t make sense.

That's what i said a few posts back. I agree, financially it makes no sense.

I prefer to go with Gas as a backup and work on minimizing it until its nothing.

 

[nut]

France turning off nuclear because renewables forcing prices into negative …

“Intellectual morons” ….

 

[peetoo]

There’s clearly a difference between states already having nuclear plants and managing their lifespan to help transition to renewable and starting up a whole new industry to manage a renewable transition which could in its final stages by the time nuclear gets set up.

The former plants are probably already paid for where a a new industry would have huge setup costs, only for the operators to be told to not operate when the Sun is shining or wind is blowing

Seems so self evident that the ‘party of good economic management’ would get it.

(We all know it’s a rabid idealogical campaign against renewables. Doing their best to stuff up power policy in opposition as well completely squibbing it in government remember Turnbull words?)

Only a rump of MPs across all parliament is actually supporting this bastardry, yet we all suffer

Next election just hammer the coalition of their power policy failures past present and future. Day after day

 

[SaintsSeptember]

France turning off nuclear because renewables forcing prices into negative …

“Intellectual morons” ….

That's not the whole truth.

For example.
Right now, daytime in France.

Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption

Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.

app.electricitymaps.com

France is running 40GW Nuclear, with a capacity of 60.
They are running around 10GW of solar.
Around 5 GW of Hydro.
And a smidge of wind.

They are exporting electricity to Britain, Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy.

Here's the actual story, they are powering down some of their power stations during times of low demand.
Well duh.
------------------------------------------------------------
French electricity prices turned negative due to a drop in demand and a surge in renewable energy output, prompting the grid operator to request that Electricite de France (EDF) take several nuclear reactors offline. Fortune reports:While more clean power is needed across Europe to reach climate goals, soaring renewables output and a lack of battery storage mean reactors sometimes have to be turned off during periods of low demand. It's becoming increasingly common around weekends in France -- which gets about two-thirds of its electricity from its atomic fleet -- and also occurs in the Nordic region and Spain.

EDF halted its Golfech 2, Cruas 2 and Tricastin 1 nuclear plants, and plans to halt three others during the weekend. Some renewables producers will also have to curb generation to avoid paying a fee amid negative prices. French day-ahead power fell to -5.76 euros a megawatt-hour, the lowest in four years, in an auction on Epex Spot. Germany's equivalent contract dropped to 7.64 euros.
--------------------------------------------------------------

The cancelled one was an experimental one.

 

[nut]

That's not the whole truth.

For example.
Right now, daytime in France.

Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption

Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.

app.electricitymaps.com

France is running 40GW Nuclear, with a capacity of 60.
They are running around 10GW of solar.
Around 5 GW of Hydro.
And a smidge of wind.

They are exporting electricity to Britain, Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy.

Here's the actual story, they are powering down some of their power stations during times of low demand.
Well duh.
------------------------------------------------------------
French electricity prices turned negative due to a drop in demand and a surge in renewable energy output, prompting the grid operator to request that Electricite de France (EDF) take several nuclear reactors offline. Fortune reports:While more clean power is needed across Europe to reach climate goals, soaring renewables output and a lack of battery storage mean reactors sometimes have to be turned off during periods of low demand. It's becoming increasingly common around weekends in France -- which gets about two-thirds of its electricity from its atomic fleet -- and also occurs in the Nordic region and Spain.

EDF halted its Golfech 2, Cruas 2 and Tricastin 1 nuclear plants, and plans to halt three others during the weekend. Some renewables producers will also have to curb generation to avoid paying a fee amid negative prices. French day-ahead power fell to -5.76 euros a megawatt-hour, the lowest in four years, in an auction on Epex Spot. Germany's equivalent contract dropped to 7.64 euros.
--------------------------------------------------------------

The cancelled one was an experimental one.

And what happens when the storage capacity for renewable increases???? They’ll shut them down more and more often!!!!
As more and more people get solar on their roof which is a massive trend what happens to the demand for electricity?????

Low demand is more renewables…

Nuclear long term is not viable …

 

[Cap]

(We all know it’s a rabid idealogical campaign against renewables. Doing their best to stuff up power policy in opposition as well completely squibbing it in government remember Turnbull words?)

I do hope into the future they do some sort on analysis of how the LNP went full stupid on renewables.

In a progressive country like Australia how on earth a political party was captured by bullshit so easily needs to be properly understood

 

[SaintsSeptember]

And what happens when the storage capacity for renewable increases???? They’ll shut them down more and more often!!!!
As more and more people get solar on their roof which is a massive trend what happens to the demand for electricity?????

Low demand is more renewables…

Nuclear long term is not viable …

That's your opinion and you may be right.
Meanwhile, for the last few decades France have contributed less to global warming than Just about any other country, except maybe a few niche wet places like New Zealand and the Scandinavian Countries.

 

[Cap]

That's your opinion and you may be right.
Meanwhile, for the last few decades France have contributed less to global warming than Just about any other country, except maybe a few niche wet places like New Zealand and the Scandinavian Countries.

yes, but thats a happy convenience now.

They built them in the 70s because they had a Nuclear program already (Nuclear Bombs) and their source of cheap energy had evaporated - oil shock.


We stuck with coal, which we have done up until very recently.

Like France, we now have an opportunity for cheap accessible energy source(s) but for bizzare reason, people still want to go for the more expensive version.

 

[QuietB]

I do hope into the future they do some sort on analysis of how the LNP went full stupid on renewables.

In a progressive country like Australia how on earth a political party was captured by bullshit so easily needs to be properly understood

The analysis is simple.

1. Coal and gas is directly threatened by renewables.
2. The Liberal and National Parties are entirely captured by the coal and gas lobbies.
3. The coal and gas lobby is the tail wagging the dog - they are writing LNP policy.

The Liberals have allowed themselves to be convinced that the Australian economy is dependent on gas and coal for its strength. This makes some logical sense, but ultimately it is folly;

1. Australia does not even control their own coal and gas resources - foreign interests do.
2. These foreign interests largely do not pay tax. Relatively they contribute very little to the Australian economy.

And most sadly, the Liberals are completely unwilling, and have never been willing, to do the hard work of diversifying the Australian economy.

The free market can take care of that. How is that working out?

And they get away with it all because Australians simply have it too good to care.

 

[nut]

That's your opinion and you may be right.

No it’s not my opinion … it’s fact … and the proof is France turning off their nuclear plants because of CHEAP renewables.
It’s not my fault you ignore this…
Firm renewables are going to become even cheaper in the future.
There is no future for nuclear in Australia…

 

[Seeds]

The analysis is simple.

1. Coal and gas is directly threatened by renewables.
2. The Liberal and National Parties are entirely captured by the coal and gas lobbies.
3. The coal and gas lobby is the tail wagging the dog - they are writing LNP policy.

The Liberals have allowed themselves to be convinced that the Australian economy is dependent on gas and coal for its strength. This makes some logical sense, but ultimately it is folly;

1. Australia does not even control their own coal and gas resources - foreign interests do.
2. These foreign interests largely do not pay tax. Relatively they contribute very little to the Australian economy.

And most sadly, the Liberals are completely unwilling, and have never been willing, to do the hard work of diversifying the Australian economy.

The free market can take care of that. How is that working out?

And they get away with it all because Australians simply have it too good to care.

The free market is doing quite well since its delivering all the solar and wind. Its government that is getting in the way with uneconomic nuclear plans

 

[peetoo]

The analysis is simple.

1. Coal and gas is directly threatened by renewables.
2. The Liberal and National Parties are entirely captured by the coal and gas lobbies.
3. The coal and gas lobby is the tail wagging the dog - they are writing LNP policy.

The Liberals have allowed themselves to be convinced that the Australian economy is dependent on gas and coal for its strength. This makes some logical sense, but ultimately it is folly;

1. Australia does not even control their own coal and gas resources - foreign interests do.
2. These foreign interests largely do not pay tax. Relatively they contribute very little to the Australian economy.

And most sadly, the Liberals are completely unwilling, and have never been willing, to do the hard work of diversifying the Australian economy.

The free market can take care of that. How is that working out?

And they get away with it all because Australians simply have it too good to care.

But talk about an Australian as head of state and somehow you are unpatriotic according to these judases

 

[SaintsSeptember]

No it’s not my opinion … it’s fact … and the proof is France turning off their nuclear plants because of CHEAP renewables.
It’s not my fault you ignore this…
Firm renewables are going to become even cheaper in the future.
There is no future for nuclear in Australia…

The renewable s are only cheap when they are in surplus.
It all depends on the weather.

I didn't ignore it.

At this moment in time ( night ) there are negligible renewable s generating electricity in France, and they are using more than 40GW of nuclear.
Their prices are going from Euro 6.97 MwH during the day to E108 per MwH during the night. ( Bare in mind its summer. )
They remain one of the biggest Electricity exporters in Europe.
If only Australia had the luxury to simply throw a bucket of cash to a neighbouring country instead of having brownouts.

Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption

Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.

app.electricitymaps.com

Denmark are mostly importing Hydro from Norway, some of it onsold to Germany.
Its costing them 45 -250 Euro per MWh

 

[QuietB]

No it’s not my opinion … it’s fact … and the proof is France turning off their nuclear plants because of CHEAP renewables.
It’s not my fault you ignore this…
Firm renewables are going to become even cheaper in the future.
There is no future for nuclear in Australia…

The example of France is plant that was paid for a long time ago - and it still cannot compete.

Australia will have to pay for entirely new plant plus compete on operation costs.

It is not possible.

 

[Pie eyed]

You can in fact turn down nuclear.

https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12/technical_and_economic_aspects_of_load_following_with_nuclear_power_plants.pdf

How do you turn down nuclear? Not that difficult. Do some reading.

What would be the point of turning down Nuclear?

 

[Pie eyed]

The renewable s are only cheap when they are in surplus.
It all depends on the weather.

I didn't ignore it.

At this moment in time ( night ) there are negligible renewable s generating electricity in France, and they are using more than 40GW of nuclear.
Their prices are going from Euro 6.97 MwH during the day to E108 per MwH during the night. ( Bare in mind its summer. )
They remain one of the biggest Electricity exporters in Europe.
If only Australia had the luxury to simply throw a bucket of cash to a neighbouring country instead of having brownouts.

Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption

Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.

app.electricitymaps.com

Denmark are mostly importing Hydro from Norway, some of it onsold to Germany.
Its costing them 45 -250 Euro per MWh

Renewables are the future and all the Humbugging is simply lying and politic on behalf of the right.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What would be the point of turning down Nuclear?

So that you aren't producing surplus electricity duh.

 

[rjslcM]

The analysis is simple.

1. Coal and gas is directly threatened by renewables.
2. The Liberal and National Parties are entirely captured by the coal and gas lobbies.
3. The coal and gas lobby is the tail wagging the dog - they are writing LNP policy.

The Liberals have allowed themselves to be convinced that the Australian economy is dependent on gas and coal for its strength. This makes some logical sense, but ultimately it is folly;

1. Australia does not even control their own coal and gas resources - foreign interests do.
2. These foreign interests largely do not pay tax. Relatively they contribute very little to the Australian economy.

And most sadly, the Liberals are completely unwilling, and have never been willing, to do the hard work of diversifying the Australian economy.

The free market can take care of that. How is that working out?

And they get away with it all because Australians simply have it too good to care.

Very eloquent analysis. Nicely summarised.

 

[Pie eyed]

So that you aren't producing surplus electricity duh.

Put the surplus in a ...........................................battery.

That is why renewables will make Nuclear a pointless industry inless than a decade.

Nuclear evolved to even out the supply side issues with coal, gas and oil.
To protect from supply issues, price gouging, political embargo etc. etc.


The sun shines everyday over the entire globe.
The wind blows nearly everyday over the entire globe.
Tides and waves the same.

No individual or company or government has any control over any of these phenomena,
They will never run out ("never" meaning for the next 4.5 billion years until the sun destroys the earth and humankind if we even remotely exist that long)


The huge push against renewables is solely because of the Bolded part of the above .

Vested interest lying to you and me to protect their vested interest.
nothing more.

Those who can't clearly see this should leave the discussion. Their opinion is meaningless.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Put the surplus in a ...........................................battery.

That is why renewables will make Nuclear a pointless industry inless than a decade.

Nuclear evolved to even out the supply side issues with coal, gas and oil.
To protect from supply issues, price gouging, political embargo etc. etc.


The sun shines everyday over the entire globe.
The wind blows nearly everyday over the entire globe.
Tides and waves the same.

No individual or company or government has any control over any of these phenomena,
They will never run out ("never" meaning for the next 4.5 billion years until the sun destroys the earth and humankind if we even remotely exist that long)


The huge push against renewables is solely because of the Bolded part of the above .

Vested interest lying to you and me to protect their vested interest.
nothing more.

Those who can't clearly see this should leave the discussion. Their opinion is meaningless.

Current status - no-one has enough batteries. We don't have enough batteries for all the renewable s, that's why electricity prices go negative when they all come on line at once. More electricity than we know what to do with.
Why would you store your existing Nuclear Electricity in a battery when you can run it on demand?

 

[Pie eyed]

Current status - no-one has enough batteries. We don't have enough batteries for all the renewable s, that's why electricity prices go negative when they all come on line at once. More electricity than we know what to do with.
Why would you store your existing Nuclear Electricity in a battery when you can run it on demand?

Current status no-one has a nuclear reactor.
Won't have a full scale city killing sized one for 20 years and will never have Duttons fiction "small modular reactor" ever.
None exists anywhere and they will be 20 times more expensive than renewables if they ever do.

Don't get me wrong I was pro-nuclear 30 years ago.
It made sense for a country with half the planets Uranium, to get from under the oil industry.

But now it does not even remotely approach the benefits of solar, wind wave triumvirate with battery.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Current status no-one has a nuclear reactor.
Won't have a full scale city killing sized one for 20 years and will never have Duttons fiction "small modular reactor" ever.
None exists anywhere and they will be 20 times more expensive than renewables if they ever do.

Don't get me wrong I was pro-nuclear 30 years ago.
It made sense for a country with half the planets Uranium, to get from under the oil industry.

But now it does not even remotely approach the benefits of solar, wind wave triumvirate with battery.

There was a discussion back a bit that talked about the French.
So they do in fact have a nuclear reactor.
The French were going to build a pilot of a smaller one, but costs were looking like blowing out so they cancelled it.
They aren't sci fi.
Lucas Heights is a small reactor and Submarines run small reactors. ( I watched widowmaker, scary stuff ).

Battery has a pretty big cost , so your stored sustainable electricity won't be cheap, but i agree that a nuclear plant is so expensive you don't want to run it "part time" because at that cost you want to be paying it off by selling electricity.

The best interim measure is probably gas, a good gas plant can be 1/3 or 1/4 the CO2/KWh than a brown coal power plant.

But those with the eyes on profit prefer to export our gas and run our coal Stations.