WSYD The reality of the Western Sydney challenge

[legend166]

If the Swans wanted to bump up membership numbers, they'd just start counting the ANZ superpass as memberships.

I don't think we sell many of them any more, judging by the ANZ attendances lately.

 

[Gee Dubya]

It is not as if the 1 million people have no access to football games, it is broadcast FTA. Just because you're shoving a team right in front of them, doesn't mean they'll like it because of geographic alliances. Increased exposure might prompt interest, but I highly doubt the market is that big.

It's not about shoving a team right in front of them. It's about engaging their community, supporting their community. Helping their kids. The Giants are on the ground building relationships and earning the respect of the community, showing they want to be involved in it, that they can be relied upon, that they are there for the long haul, and that they are willing to work at making the community a better place. Building a community club, not opening another franchise. It's not really about the product of AFL to begin with.

In return the community will eventually accept them as part of itself. That doesn't mean they'll all convert to AFL or they'll buy memberships or they'll turn up to games, in fact the vast majority probably wont. But they only need 2-3% of that community to show an interest and there's your 20-30k Giants fans.

The timeframe for that is anyone's guess. Probably a generation. The G-Generation

 

[Consolaçao]

Exactly what I've been thinking all along, I don't understand why we are spending so much money on an area that doesn't even follow Aussie rules while us traditional supporters that are 100% in love with the game are going to be the ones that lose out, we generate enough money to keep all struggling clubs around for a long time yet we are blowing it on people who couldn't give a stuff

Fans have two broad choices, you can play the victim card (Australians are getting very good at it these days), or you can recognise the money going north to underwrite growth of the game up there as a sacrifice for the greater good of the game. No sensible footy fan likes to see any team struggle, least of all your team, which is after all the oldest footy club in Australia, and one of the oldest in the world, but you're missing the forest for the trees.
Look at it this way.. you (and other Victorians) paint yourselves and your clubs as the victims, but what about SA or WA football fans who saw their entire leagues decimated for the good of the game? In comparison, you, as a Melbourne fan, have sacrificed next to nothing for the growth of football over the past 30 years. So stop waaaaahing.

 

[Blackas87]

Fans have two broad choices, you can play the victim card (Australians are getting very good at it these days), or you can recognise the money going north to underwrite growth of the game up there as a sacrifice for the greater good of the game. No sensible footy fan likes to see any team struggle, least of all your team, which is after all the oldest footy club in Australia, and one of the oldest in the world, but you're missing the forest for the trees.
Look at it this way.. you (and other Victorians) paint yourselves and your clubs as the victims, but what about SA or WA football fans who saw their entire leagues decimated for the good of the game? In comparison, you, as a Melbourne fan, have sacrificed next to nothing for the growth of football over the past 30 years. So stop waaaaahing.

I would like to know why expanding the game is good for the game, i think the game is good where it is now, i enjoy it, you enjoy it, everyone here enjoys it, so why are we so obsessed about turning rugby supporters into Aussie rules supporters, paying millions for NRL stars to convert people over, who cares, we should be looking after ourselves first seeing we are the ones that have made all this money and by we i mean Vic, SA and WA, the traditional aussie rules states that have been following this sport for well over 100 years, yes the sport has been around for over 100 years and the people of Sydney haven't caught on yet so we spend our money to force it down there throats, and vic clubs aren't the only ones struggling, Port from your state needs looking after too, and really is following the Adelaide Crows a sacrifice, if it is you can still go back to the SANFL because its still there so stop crying over that one.

 

[finders]

I would like to know why expanding the game is good for the game, i think the game is good where it is now, i enjoy it, you enjoy it, everyone here enjoys it, so why are we so obsessed about turning rugby supporters into Aussie rules supporters, paying millions for NRL stars to convert people over, who cares, we should be looking after ourselves first seeing we are the ones that have made all this money and by we i mean Vic, SA and WA, the traditional aussie rules states that have been following this sport for well over 100 years, yes the sport has been around for over 100 years and the people of Sydney haven't caught on yet so we spend our money to force it down there throats, and vic clubs aren't the only ones struggling, Port from your state needs looking after too, and really is following the Adelaide Crows a sacrifice, if it is you can still go back to the SANFL because its still there so stop crying over that one.

Head in the sand Mate!

With your attitude there would be no AFL and you would have a second rate broke VFL slowly dying on its feet and our own game in peril itself.

The only way forward for Australian Football is to expand into the areas were it has less penetration and Western Sydney is one of them and if in the future clubs like yours are badly managed and not viable then they should go out of existence like any badly run business.

You should be more worried about Melbourne surviving than anything that happens to GWS.

I would also hope that down the track the AFL has clubs in places like NZ and South Africa.

 

[vonn]

Isn't the GWS story so much different from the Sydney Swans strory ?
Sydney Swans - a relocated South Melbourne side centred on the SCG .
GWS - a Sydney team identifying with residents of the WS .
Two completely different management styles

I was referring to GC: A new team entering into a market with only one AFL team. No similarities to Sydney, and I never suggested there was.

And you think that this has been sufficient ?

Yes, considering the circumstances. It is not the AFL's fault the Media here is NRL-orientated, they have no say in the stories that go on here.

It's not about shoving a team right in front of them. It's about engaging their community, supporting their community. Helping their kids. The Giants are on the ground building relationships and earning the respect of the community, showing they want to be involved in it, that they can be relied upon, that they are there for the long haul, and that they are willing to work at making the community a better place. Building a community club, not opening another franchise. It's not really about the product of AFL to begin with.

It is entirely about marketing AFL as a product, the GWS are just the way the AFL have decided to do it. As to the rest of your post: The giants are going to face huge competition from NRL teams who have had decades to build upon this 'community spirit' idea you preach, it is not as easy as the AFL saying 'Here is my support, now you'll respect me and in turn like me.'

In return the community will eventually accept them as part of itself. That doesn't mean they'll all convert to AFL or they'll buy memberships or they'll turn up to games, in fact the vast majority probably wont. But they only need 2-3% of that community to show an interest and there's your 20-30k Giants fans.

The timeframe for that is anyone's guess. Probably a generation. The G-Generation

I have no idea where those statistics are coming from, and what 2-3% of the market (which is really hard to garner a figure for because it's not as if you can say 'This person doesn't support NRL, thus they'll support AFL.' Some people have no interest whatsoever in football in any code) is.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

I would like to know why expanding the game is good for the game, i think the game is good where it is now, i enjoy it, you enjoy it, everyone here enjoys it, so why are we so obsessed about turning rugby supporters into Aussie rules supporters, paying millions for NRL stars to convert people over, who cares, we should be looking after ourselves first seeing we are the ones that have made all this money and by we i mean Vic, SA and WA, the traditional aussie rules states that have been following this sport for well over 100 years, yes the sport has been around for over 100 years and the people of Sydney haven't caught on yet so we spend our money to force it down there throats, and vic clubs aren't the only ones struggling, Port from your state needs looking after too, and really is following the Adelaide Crows a sacrifice, if it is you can still go back to the SANFL because its still there so stop crying over that one.

The cake is MINE and you can't have ANY of it!

That's exactly what you are saying.

Why not spread our game? Why deprive the MAJORITY of Australians from enjoying the best sport in the world?

 

[RodneyMaynard]

In many ways I believe the move into Western Sydney isn’t an attack on Rugby League, but a move against soccer. Currently in WS if a kid doesn’t want to play league/union (or isn’t physically suited to it), he’ll take up soccer. I believe Aussie Rules aims to become that second alternative. That the NRL and its commentators assumed a move into WS was an attack on the very heartland of League, and the biggest threat in their game’s history, is more a reflection of their psyche following the Super League wars. While some may counter that argument with “well why did they steal Izzy?”, the fact is that in Sydney nothing grabs headlines like NRL, and overnight everyone in the state knew about GWS. Stealing Hunt and Izzy was a means to an end, pure and simple.

GWS have as much chance of convincing a life-long Eels supporter of jumping on board as the Perth Reds do of converting West Coast Eagles supporters when they start up (nil), but they’re not targeting league supporters; they’re targeting their kids (God that sounds more sinister than I meant). When Vlad and Dale Holmes talk about a 20 year investment, and generational change, that’s what they mean. As with GC, in the initial 5-10 years they’ll rely on AFL zealots living in the area to form the core 10-15k supporter group (I live in Canberra, and like everyone I know here from WA/SA/Tas/Vic, i’ll be buying a GWS Canberra membership next year), while they patiently work with the community to cultivate the next generation of supporters.

I understand the ill-feeling from supporters of clubs that are struggling financially, but these clubs have proven incredibly resilient, and will continue to survive. When I was a kid we travelled to watch a Crows v North game at the MCG in the mid nineties, and the “Carey’s a w@nker” chants drowned out those of the outnumbered home crowd. People were forecasting the death/merger/relocation of clubs like North back then, and here we are, 20 years later, and they have endured. The AFL learned the hard way with Fitzroy that when you kill a team, the AFL loses those supporters for life.

From next year there will be at least 2 teams in every mainland state, with a game played in each state every week, and we will have cemented our place as the only truly national competition in the country.

 

[wikipediaAFLproject]

Generational change it is indeed. The Giants are like Storm in Melbourne. If the Giants can become more successful in Sydney than the Storm are in Melbourne it will tick a few boxes.
If both the Swans and Giants become financially self sufficient then im guessing they will have company to keep with at least one other team.
In the long long run (60-70 years) Sydney should ideally have just as many teams as Melbourne in the AFL.

In many ways I believe the move into Western Sydney isn’t an attack on Rugby League, but a move against soccer. Currently in WS if a kid doesn’t want to play league/union (or isn’t physically suited to it), he’ll take up soccer. I believe Aussie Rules aims to become that second alternative. That the NRL and its commentators assumed a move into WS was an attack on the very heartland of League, and the biggest threat in their game’s history, is more a reflection of their psyche following the Super League wars. While some may counter that argument with “well why did they steal Izzy?”, the fact is that in Sydney nothing grabs headlines like NRL, and overnight everyone in the state knew about GWS. Stealing Hunt and Izzy was a means to an end, pure and simple.

GWS have as much chance of convincing a life-long Eels supporter of jumping on board as the Perth Reds do of converting West Coast Eagles supporters when they start up (nil), but they’re not targeting league supporters; they’re targeting their kids (God that sounds more sinister than I meant). When Vlad and Dale Holmes talk about a 20 year investment, and generational change, that’s what they mean. As with GC, in the initial 5-10 years they’ll rely on AFL zealots living in the area to form the core 10-15k supporter group (I live in Canberra, and like everyone I know here from WA/SA/Tas/Vic, i’ll be buying a GWS Canberra membership next year), while they patiently work with the community to cultivate the next generation of supporters.

I understand the ill-feeling from supporters of clubs that are struggling financially, but these clubs have proven incredibly resilient, and will continue to survive. When I was a kid we travelled to watch a Crows v North game at the MCG in the mid nineties, and the “Carey’s a w@nker” chants drowned out those of the outnumbered home crowd. People were forecasting the death/merger/relocation of clubs like North back then, and here we are, 20 years later, and they have endured. The AFL learned the hard way with Fitzroy that when you kill a team, the AFL loses those supporters for life.

From next year there will be at least 2 teams in every mainland state, with a game played in each state every week, and we will have cemented our place as the only truly national competition in the country.

This. It is a large part of the equation, not the only part, but a large part. League was slowly dying a couple of years ago and has seen a huge resurgence this year. The resurgence was caused by the AFL. The decline in popularity was caused mostly by soccer (and also football). The Daily Telegraph refuses to believe it, the Australian public dont know about it, and the FFA are trying to keep it a secret for some reason, but Western Sydney is the heartland of soccer in Australia. The AFL recognise that and know that soccer is a huge threat to the AFLs plans to be the second code in Sydney.

 

[AstroboyUK]

It's not about shoving a team right in front of them. It's about engaging their community, supporting their community. Helping their kids. The Giants are on the ground building relationships and earning the respect of the community, showing they want to be involved in it, that they can be relied upon, that they are there for the long haul, and that they are willing to work at making the community a better place. Building a community club, not opening another franchise. It's not really about the product of AFL to begin with.

In return the community will eventually accept them as part of itself. That doesn't mean they'll all convert to AFL or they'll buy memberships or they'll turn up to games, in fact the vast majority probably wont. But they only need 2-3% of that community to show an interest and there's your 20-30k Giants fans.

The timeframe for that is anyone's guess. Probably a generation. The G-Generation

agree: I wouldnt be surprised if the Giants go through a couple of initial phases with the region - - Hype/entry phase, followed by slight disulliionment/unfashionable phase, follwed by underdog gets off the floor/anti-hero phase...before plateuing out into whatever the long term perception is.

Its a bit loose, but you could say Sydney followed a similar path over its first 20 years.

 

[cos789]

the traditional aussie rules states that have been following this sport for well over 100 years, yes the sport has been around for over 100 years and .

as well as in NSW , QLD and NZ .

 

[cos789]

In many ways I believe the move into Western Sydney isn’t an attack on Rugby League, but a move against soccer. Currently in WS if a kid doesn’t want to play league/union (or isn’t physically suited to it), he’ll take up soccer. I believe Aussie Rules aims to become that second alternative. That the NRL and its commentators assumed a move into WS was an attack on the very heartland of League, and the biggest threat in their game’s history, is more a reflection of their psyche following the Super League wars. While some may counter that argument with “well why did they steal Izzy?”, the fact is that in Sydney nothing grabs headlines like NRL, and overnight everyone in the state knew about GWS. Stealing Hunt and Izzy was a means to an end, pure and simple.

GWS have as much chance of convincing a life-long Eels supporter of jumping on board as the Perth Reds do of converting West Coast Eagles supporters when they start up (nil), but they’re not targeting league supporters; they’re targeting their kids (God that sounds more sinister than I meant). When Vlad and Dale Holmes talk about a 20 year investment, and generational change, that’s what they mean. As with GC, in the initial 5-10 years they’ll rely on AFL zealots living in the area to form the core 10-15k supporter group (I live in Canberra, and like everyone I know here from WA/SA/Tas/Vic, i’ll be buying a GWS Canberra membership next year), while they patiently work with the community to cultivate the next generation of supporters.

I understand the ill-feeling from supporters of clubs that are struggling financially, but these clubs have proven incredibly resilient, and will continue to survive. When I was a kid we travelled to watch a Crows v North game at the MCG in the mid nineties, and the “Carey’s a w@nker” chants drowned out those of the outnumbered home crowd. People were forecasting the death/merger/relocation of clubs like North back then, and here we are, 20 years later, and they have endured. The AFL learned the hard way with Fitzroy that when you kill a team, the AFL loses those supporters for life.

From next year there will be at least 2 teams in every mainland state, with a game played in each state every week, and we will have cemented our place as the only truly national competition in the country.

Pretty much sums it up .

 

[intentcity]

intencity are NRL trolls from League Unlimited who were sent here in a hilarious attempt to try and piss us off. Ignore them. They are both some of the worst spellers I've ever seen, and Jstone couldn't carry a sentence in a wheelbarrow. They are truly indicative of LU and ignorant and fearful rugby league fans.

I'm not a troll. I'm a proudly gay AFL fan. I have been for 20 years, yet some of you redneck bogans can't handle that and have to resort to call me names like ********ing ******.

You're the one who should be ashamed. You're just another small minded homophobe.

 

[cos789]

I have no idea where those statistics are coming from, and what 2-3% of the market.

Very simple really .
WS is supposed to have a population of 2 million .
So if 1% of the population goes to a Giants game you achieve a crowd of 20k.

 

[cos789]

It is not the AFL's fault the Media here is NRL-orientated, they have no say in the stories that go on here.

It's not the AFL's fault that the media coverage of AFL is defficient but it is the AFL's fault for not attempting to do something about it .

.

 

[speedpeck23]

It's not the AFL's fault that the media coverage of AFL is defficient but it is the AFL's fault for not attempting to do something about it .

.

Would you not call recruiting Israel Folau an attempt at gaining media coverage? For a club that has yet to play at the elite level they seem to have received a fair bit of publicity.

 

[cos789]

Would you not call recruiting Israel Folau an attempt at gaining media coverage? For a club that has yet to play at the elite level they seem to have received a fair bit of publicity.

For the GWS , yes .

Wev were talking about the Swans .

 

[4evablues]

I support the expansion of the game to Western Sydney. It will bring more people, players and ultimately revenue to the game. It is a good thing.

But I just hope and pray the AFL have accepted the full scale of the challenge they've set themselves.

The release of the final membership figures yesterday shows that the Swans membership is nearly 2000 fewer than that of North, the Melbourne team with the lowest membership.

Even more concerning, the Swans membership actually fell by 1600 last year. Crowds have been down this year - although a run of bad luck with weather can be blamed for much of that - and the club still requires significant AFL assistance.

It is reasonable to expect that some of the GWS support will come from cannibalising Swans members.

As Melbourne and Dogs fans are finding out, the AFL is going to do anything and everything to support the venture.

My question is this: how long do people think it will take before GWS - or the Swans that matter - are stand alone sustainable?

And before anyone bleats about 'handouts' to Vic clubs, they must recognise that Sydney and GWS have very nice stadium deals, unlike the Melbourne clubs who receive assistance.

The big problem for GWS and Swans are 2 things. NRL and the lack of passion by Sydney siders....we are not like the folk down in Melbourne.

We need GWS, I grew up in Western Sydney and played Aussie Rules but not many do. I think this will build up the support for AFL in NRL dominated areas.

Aussie Rules is such a great game and any chance for it to expand, should be done. It's an investment that may take years for it to show results but very necessary to make this game we love stronger!!!

 

[Rob]

I don't think we sell many of them any more, judging by the ANZ attendances lately.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing (for the game) if those people are now Giants supporters. I remember a few years ago it was reported that they sold around 10,000 of them, to which about 70% came from people living west of Homebush.

Time will tell whether that will happen though.

 

[vonn]

Very simple really .
WS is supposed to have a population of 2 million .
So if 1% of the population goes to a Giants game you achieve a crowd of 20k.

That's the population, not the market.

It's not the AFL's fault that the media coverage of AFL is defficient but it is the AFL's fault for not attempting to do something about it .

.... What? Short of encouraging Sydney players to punch people every game (which got Baz on the second last page of the sports section) or recruiting big names (which they've done) what else can they do?

 

[cos789]

That's the population, not the market.

The population is your target market .

What? Short of encouraging Sydney players to punch people every game (which got Baz on the second last page of the sports section) or recruiting big names (which they've done) what else can they do?

Ever heard of advertising ? promotions ? Community events ?
You know - the sort of thing they're doing with GWS .

 

[vonn]

Ever heard of advertising ? promotions ? Community events ?
You know - the sort of thing they're doing with GWS .

Let me clear something up. I used media in a PR sense. So as far as I'm concerned the AFL in Sydney (sydney swans) already engages in all of these activities, they are just deemed not 'news-worthy' enough by the media.

 

[cos789]

The big problem for GWS and Swans are 2 things. NRL and the lack of passion by Sydney siders.

I don't see what the lack of passion for the NRL has to do with the GWS ?
Certainly Sydney Swans supporters are very passionate so it must be possible to find more passionate supporters in Sydney .In fact don't they have more members than most NRL teams and they haven't played an AFL game yet .

we are not like the folk down in Melbourne.

or Perth ,Adelaide ,Geelong ,Tasmania , Canberra ,Darwin ,Cairns ,Brisbane or Gold Coast .The Sydney Swans supporters are no different to other AFL supporters .

 

[cos789]

Let me clear something up. I used media in a PR sense.

And I used media in the total sense . It's basic business that if need exposure and it's not forthcoming you go out and do something about it .
For instance , here in Perth the Force buy adds and sponsor programs etc .

 

[Damon_3388]

Ever heard of advertising ? promotions ? Community events ?
You know - the sort of thing they're doing with GWS .

I've seen Sydney Swans ads plenty of times this year on Foxtel, telling me to "be lifted" by players like Adam Goodes, Dan Hannebury, Ben McGlynn and Kieren Jack. Do they not put these ads on FTA television in NSW?