Autopsy The surprisingly mature post loss discussion.

[ivan rassmussen]

The commentators' constant circle-jerk about Goodwin's men behind the ball (which really isn't that unique...) probably didn't help people's perception.

I was actually at the game, so never heard what commentators said. The problem was, Melb employed a tactic which contributed significantly to their ability to clear the ball from the centre repeatedly. There was no discernible moves by Beveridge/coaching staff to counteract that - for the entire game. Lewis et al ran off the square, unmanned for 4 quarters. Surely at some point, acknowledgement that the tactic needed countering and trying multiple players including Stringer coming off the wing was not the solution, would force a different plan... alas, no.

 

[Fossie 32]

It's time to utilise the players we have and build another game plan around them. The handball game has gone past us, the effort required by the players to have this fast game plan isn't existent of recent weeks. Cloke needs to be put in the forward line and not leave the 50. Just provide a direct long target. If not Cloke, it's has to be Redpath, these players are too good at their best to not be utilised effectively in the ones.

Welcome to BigFooty
I was trying to give some sort of report on the VFL game and showed my lack of understanding of 'two way running' by noting that we emptied the forward line when the opposition had the ball
But I can't see how tall forwards are supposed to have an impact if they can't stay inside 50 ready to get the ball when it's kicked long .......

 

[SCRAY72]

I was actually at the game, so never heard what commentators said. The problem was, Melb employed a tactic which contributed significantly to their ability to clear the ball from the centre repeatedly. There was no discernible moves by Beveridge/coaching staff to counteract that - for the entire game. Lewis et al ran off the square, unmanned for 4 quarters. Surely at some point, acknowledgement that the tactic needed countering and trying multiple players including Stringer coming off the wing was not the solution, would force a different plan... alas, no.

As I said in a another thread, Beveridge was outcoached, not the first time this year.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

As I said in a another thread, Beveridge was outcoached, not the first time this year.

I disagree. "Out coached" implies Goodwin had better tactics. Being aware of a tactic and letting it remain effective for 4 quarters, throws up the question of why it was not effectively challenged. Virtually everyone in our area picked it up early first quarter.

 

[DelRe]

Macca taught a toughness in contested footy to some of our younger players and they privately acknowledge this, but in the main he taught a team and a club about what they no longer wanted to be.

On the first point that is possible but a lot of players looking back over their careers attribute various influences including school and junior coaches etc. Maybe some credit should also go back to Eade then as well given he coached some of the team longer than Macca? What I was getting at was really how significant that Macca's trailing influence could've been as a concept given the facts I mentioned. An interesting question would be who was their biggest influence in their career and who would they say was the biggest individual factor in winning the flag.

On the second, I think we just disagree. I just don't see it as a remotely plausible theory and to a degree, insulting to the coaches that came before him. A side that averaged 6 wins, with the 2nd worst scoring percentage in the history of the club suddenly jumps to consecutive finals and a premiership but that is attributable to Macca teaching them what they didn't want to be when one third of them never even experienced his coaching? Such a fundamental shift in performance is surely more plausibly attributable primarily to the new coaching regime effect on style of play and self belief. The obvious question being if Macca was able to teach that, why was it unable to translate into any positive results over the 3 years of direct influence but so dramatically change within 2 years of departure.

Anyway, I've probably dragged the thread in the wrong direction.

 

[_M_16_]

I addressed this issue and suggested some reasons here.

If we are to make any headway our clearance work needs drastic improvement.
Imagine what would have happened if Gawn had been playing.
We won't have the same ruck advantage against Goldstein.

Curious, what is the issue? Our ruckman are poor tapping it in the right direction? Or are our midfielders terrible at reading the taps? Could have the best tap ruckman in the world, but if your midfield cannot read for the life of them, then they aren't going to get an advantage. Point being, sometimes people look at the lack of hitouts to advantage and purely blame the ruckman. We dominated when we had third man up, which helped us as we knew who was going where. Since the rule has come out we are forced to predict and read every play

 

[TempleKelvington]

I agree with you so why play him in seniors, not sure what was to be achieved other than highlighting why he hasn't been played in the seniors.

Confusing decision to play him.

He played because his form at Footscray warranted it. He didn't play well but had a few mates. Need to reward good form especially when others are not playing well.

He will most likely be out this week, I think we will bring in some talls


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[TempleKelvington]

Welcome to BigFooty
I was trying to give some sort of report on the VFL game and showed my lack of understanding of 'two way running' by noting that we emptied the forward line when the opposition had the ball
But I can't see how tall forwards are supposed to have an impact if they can't stay inside 50 ready to get the ball when it's kicked long .......

Spot on. Does my head in. Even when we have talls in the team, the number of times they are nowhere to be seen when the ball enters 50 is staggering. I firmly belive this lack of a constant target forward is the reason for the hesitation and poor disposal inside 50.

It goes like this. We got the ball, moving well, running forward, look up, no one to go to. Now a sideways handball to someone under presssure or a short kick to a one on one......turnover.

Pick some KP forwards, allow them to play as forwards.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Ok...to all those with really short memories. In 2O16 we won the flag. Who could have believed that, I still can't. I will never forget how that felt, how it feels to know we have done it.

So to my fair weather friends, times are a fraction tougher ATM. Dont be so ungrateful. Footy has never been all beer and skittles, now and then you have to dig deep to support your team when they are down. Support there is an idea.

So to that young fella on Saturday with the curly black hair and glasses who thought abusing JJ after the game at the players race was ok, just remembered it was the likes of JJ who delivered the holy grail. You know the Norm Smith medalist. Sure his future with us is uncertain, he's down on form, he's being targeted very openly by the opposition, even in social media by those gutless Melbourne players. So maybe go and hang it on those turds and give your support to our boys who need you to do the only thing you can.....support.

Yes especially in tough times.

 

[Sharkey66]

Curious, what is the issue? Our ruckman are poor tapping it in the right direction? Or are our midfielders terrible at reading the taps? Could have the best tap ruckman in the world, but if your midfield cannot read for the life of them, then they aren't going to get an advantage. Point being, sometimes people look at the lack of hitouts to advantage and purely blame the ruckman. We dominated when we had third man up, which helped us as we knew who was going where. Since the rule has come out we are forced to predict and read every play

Poor coaching on the training track? For Those that get to training do they do much of this ruck setup drills, and who is in charge of running them?

 

[Dog Rising]

Just on the ruck thing. Bont attended 1 boundary throw in as the ruck. He panned it lace out to Honeychurch (I think), who ran away with a clean clearance. Think it was the only perfect tap all day. Our other ruckman don't even look like they are trying to find a target.

 

[Black Saab]

Spot on. Does my head in. Even when we have talls in the team, the number of times they are nowhere to be seen when the ball enters 50 is staggering. I firmly belive this lack of a constant target forward is the reason for the hesitation and poor disposal inside 50.

It goes like this. We got the ball, moving well, running forward, look up, no one to go to. Now a sideways handball to someone under presssure or a short kick to a one on one......turnover.

Pick some KP forwards, allow them to play as forwards.

This seems to be one of the most evident changes with the Bulldogs this year. Their zip and incredible speed in close to creatively transfer the ball from one end to the other has disappeared. Last year they were elite in a netball kind of way at handballing the leather to each other and so dangerous in alwayss looking like completely breaking the game right open with a rapid fire number of goals that stunned opposition and put the game on the Bulldogs terms. ATM they look like any other struggling side. I doubt they are out of ideas, they are just out of fire in the belly.

 

[Jen Geoffings]

On the second, I think we just disagree. I just don't see it as a remotely plausible theory and to a degree, insulting to the coaches that came before him. A side that averaged 6 wins, with the 2nd worst scoring percentage in the history of the club suddenly jumps to consecutive finals and a premiership but that is attributable to Macca teaching them what they didn't want to be when one third of them never even experienced his coaching? Such a fundamental shift in performance is surely more plausibly attributable primarily to the new coaching regime effect on style of play and self belief. The obvious question being if Macca was able to teach that, why was it unable to translate into any positive results over the 3 years of direct influence but so dramatically change within 2 years of departure.

Anyway, I've probably dragged the thread in the wrong direction.

I think you took my second point too literally. I just meant he 'taught' us what we didn't want to be - poor communicators, poor player managers, old school strategists, and losers. The general sense of relief and hope when it ended, despite the state of turmoil we were in and before we knew what was coming next, was, in my view, about no longer being what we had become. Don't disrespect your view, or want to prolong the thread, just better explaining mine.

 

[The Original Swooper]

I know it was only one passage of play, but boy, did it excite me. Bailey Dale took possession in a pack, surrounded by bodies. Lightning fast handball through the legs of the pack straight to Bont, who runs off...., and kicks a point

Just like Webb however, gets lauded for disposal quality but knocked for lack of possession numbers. You will never have a team with all players getting 30+ possessions. Bont is revered for quality not quantity. Dale is potentially a similar type.

I have faith in both the Baileys. They will both be valuable Bulldog players.

 

[dergert]

Everyone please listen to Bob's bit on sen just before. I have somewhat gained a bit more confidence that our season isn't the shambles we thought. No better two people to lead us through this mess, Bob and bevo.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/06/20/it-s-a-non-issue-murphy-on-dogs-infighting/

 

[footyfan000001]

We were good against the saints. Stringer kicked 5 and JJ kicked 1.2 and had 29. There was no talk then of 'who's sleeping with who's ex' and we were apparently back to our best. Whilst we've been disappointing - I still think we can recapture some good form.

 

[Gollo]

Spot on. Does my head in. Even when we have talls in the team, the number of times they are nowhere to be seen when the ball enters 50 is staggering. I firmly belive this lack of a constant target forward is the reason for the hesitation and poor disposal inside 50.

It goes like this. We got the ball, moving well, running forward, look up, no one to go to. Now a sideways handball to someone under presssure or a short kick to a one on one......turnover.

Pick some KP forwards, allow them to play as forwards.

Basically, with this forward line press the aim is to get the ball over the back so that we can run onto the ball with a completely open 50. It's the new way the game's played, and it's all about speed of ball movement. If you don't press everyone up, the opposition will be able to rebound everything that comes their way in the zone between the centre circle and our defensive 50. I'm quite skeptical of the cries that "we need speed and class" as a few individual players with speed and class will not really help the team in a major way, however the fact is that we are not quick enough to break the lines and get it over the back to any major extent. This is part of the reason out forward 50 inefficiency is such a problem, because we don't get enough quality entries in as we do not get the ball deep enough; ergo it's far easier for the opposition to run back and rebound when the ball is 50m away from goal rather than 20m.

You can no longer rest your laurels of the stay-at-home forward. If you have a forward who's sitting inside 50 when the play is in defence, they are a liability. You're playing with 17 men.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

We were good against the saints. Stringer kicked 5 and JJ kicked 1.2 and had 29. There was no talk then of 'who's sleeping with who's ex' and we were apparently back to our best. Whilst we've been disappointing - I still think we can recapture some good form.

we have played in patches all season. when that happens you know something is wrong and broken

i remember the cats did it 2013/2014 and it caught up with them and they got exposed

im afraid this season its either miss finals, scrape in and do nothing

 

[ScragCity]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/06/20/it-s-a-non-issue-murphy-on-dogs-infighting/

I love how well Bob clarifies things. He doesn't speak in cryptic cliches, he tells it how it is.

 

[dogwatch]

Curious, what is the issue? Our ruckman are poor tapping it in the right direction? Or are our midfielders terrible at reading the taps? Could have the best tap ruckman in the world, but if your midfield cannot read for the life of them, then they aren't going to get an advantage. Point being, sometimes people look at the lack of hitouts to advantage and purely blame the ruckman. We dominated when we had third man up, which helped us as we knew who was going where. Since the rule has come out we are forced to predict and read every play

The issue is poor clearance to tap ratio. Causes are various, like those you mentioned plus for instance how we set up around the pack. The aspect I was addressing were the very few clean takeaways we get. That's where we lack a certain type of midfielder (admittedly they are in short supply everywhere). They were the plays that Geelong and Melbourne killed us with. When we do win a clearance it's often after a lot of scrambling around under packs by the likes of Libba, Wallis and Dahlhaus.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

i think the biggest thing from the finals to now is the spine of the team , particular the talls

the talls played our of their skins and thats probably why we won the flag

now in the H&A season our spine has been chop and change, and we arnt getting any output from our talls, who are pretty much useless this year.

 

[footyfan000001]

we have played in patches all season. when that happens you know something is wrong and broken

i remember the cats did it 2013/2014 and it caught up with them and they got exposed

im afraid this season its either miss finals, scrape in and do nothing

If we scrape in - I wouldnt wanna be playing us week 1 of the finals. Just sayin.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

If we scrape in - I wouldnt wanna be playing us week 1 of the finals. Just sayin.

only if tom boyd plays like a $1 million man

 

[SCRAY72]

I disagree. "Out coached" implies Goodwin had better tactics. Being aware of a tactic and letting it remain effective for 4 quarters, throws up the question of why it was not effectively challenged. Virtually everyone in our area picked it up early first quarter.

Then if people in the crowd picked it up and Beveridge didn't or decided in his wisdom to do nothing isn't that being outcoached ?
What is your definition of outcoached ?