The Way Forward

[monty1104]

First of all, Richmond aren't playing only young guys.

Secondly, I'm not suggesting that we leave out ALL of the experienced guys, but some of them should be given the flick if we are serious about moving forward. In reality, Heff and MJ aren't doing us much good and won't get any better. Pev is having a good season and JJ has only been back for one game so we cant judge him yet. I know Hird and Fletcher wont be dropped, but if we are serious about developing guys like Lee and Gumby, then they should take a backwards step. IMO, Richmond are doing the right thing by exposing the young guys to footy early on, it will only speed up their development. And using Brissie and port as examples, their experienced guys are still very good players. Black, Power, Notting, Cornes's, Peter Burgoyne and Wilson are still at the top of their games pretty much. The guys I have named are past it and continue to get games. That is the difference between Essendon and the rest.

 

[monty1104]

As much as you are on the right track to some extent, we can't do it during the year.

We need to reward young talent and give them every opportunity once they have shown they are earned a spot.

As for the older players, and proven duds get rid of them at the end of the year, and recruit nothing but young players, and try to lure a young midfielder in the pre season draft, unlikely i know.

As for those 2 as captains, sorry i could't disagree more

Not saying that we should change during the year, but having a captain that actually playes more games than he misses should be a priority. I think we made a big error in giving Lloyd the captaincy, but we didnt have much of a choice last year. Hird should have retained the captaincy until the end IMO, and then given it to a younger guy.

 

[ant555]

Not saying that we should change during the year, but having a captain that actually playes more games than he misses should be a priority. I think we made a big error in giving Lloyd the captaincy, but we didnt have much of a choice last year. Hird should have retained the captaincy until the end IMO, and then given it to a younger guy.

So you are saying they should have seen Lloyds hamstring tendon injury coming and selected another captain
Yes i know the above statement from me is pedantic but you have condracticed yourself a bit. Hird should have stayed captain becasue he plays more but before last season Lloyd usually played mor egames than Hird who only played 14 last year anyway.
Lloyd was the correct choice as Captain.

 

[DaSawx]

Young players won't improve themselves if they are not ready for senior action, in a lot of cases they can take steps backwards, just look at Kepler.

If an Andrew Lee is even looking that impressive at VFL level, why replace a Fletcher with him? Make them earn it, Houli is killing it in the VFL and should replace someone like Heffernan, but not necessarily for the rest of the year.

We have a lot of young players who are or are capable of being in the best 22 who have played less than or around 50 games, and I'm a strong believer that we should as much finals experience into them as possible, it's a lot better than playing weaker teams and continuing to lose, IMO that will just breed a losing culture or that once the group finally become a finals team if it ever happens they are soft and can't handle the pressure atmosphere.

 

[monty1104]

So you are saying they should have seen Lloyds hamstring tendon injury coming and selected another captain
Yes i know the above statement from me is pedantic but you have condracticed yourself a bit. Hird should have stayed captain becasue he plays more but before last season Lloyd usually played mor egames than Hird who only played 14 last year anyway.
Lloyd was the correct choice as Captain.

I know Hird doesnt usually play more games than Hird, but im saying that picking Lloydwas the wrong choice even before his Hammy injury. Lloyd is now 29 and only has another 4 years in him in reality. Those 4 years wont be of top flight footy. The captain should be one who sets an example to the younger players. With Lloyd as captain, who knows... maybe one day we will see Gumby going for a mark, losing his footing, falling over and getting out of the contest. Lloyd is not someone whos example youngsters should follow.

 

[ant555]

I know Hird doesnt usually play more games than Hird, but im saying that picking Lloydwas the wrong choice even before his Hammy injury. Lloyd is now 29 and only has another 4 years in him in reality. Those 4 years wont be of top flight footy. The captain should be one who sets an example to the younger players. With Lloyd as captain, who knows... maybe one day we will see Gumby going for a mark, losing his footing, falling over and getting out of the contest. Lloyd is not someone whos example youngsters should follow.

Wow im simply stunned. Im not sure if words could be used to reply to this other than to say you must know very little about Lloyd and the club to even say it
You pick out one minor flaw in his game and say he sets a poor example. You are just as bad as all the arse clowns who claim he has cheated to get all his goals

 

[Dr Moose]

Young players won't improve themselves if they are not ready for senior action, in a lot of cases they can take steps backwards, just look at Kepler.

If an Andrew Lee is even looking that impressive at VFL level, why replace a Fletcher with him? Make them earn it, Houli is killing it in the VFL and should replace someone like Heffernan, but not necessarily for the rest of the year.

We have a lot of young players who are or are capable of being in the best 22 who have played less than or around 50 games, and I'm a strong believer that we should as much finals experience into them as possible, it's a lot better than playing weaker teams and continuing to lose, IMO that will just breed a losing culture or that once the group finally become a finals team if it ever happens they are soft and can't handle the pressure atmosphere.

Very valid points. Too many clubs spend generations being underperformers, with fond recollections of the 50's and 60's but no real expectations of winning the flag this year. We shouldn't be the same as them, just on pride alone, but I do think that keeping icons like Hird, fletch and Lloyd around does teach younger guys to aim high. Their experience can't ever be undervalued. Getting retired guys in their 30's and 40's to talk to 18-20yo's about what the club jumper meant to them isn't half as inspirational as having them looking for their younger teammates to receive a kick-in or free. The paradox is that young captains like Hille might not be strong enough characters to tell the older guys to work harder. I'm not sure how tha Saints leadership group relates to Harvey, but then again he does unequivocally deserve his place in the team each week.

 

[monty1104]

Wow im simply stunned. Im not sure if words could be used to reply to this other than to say you must know very little about Lloyd and the club to even say it
You pick out one minor flaw in his game and say he sets a poor example. You are just as bad as all the arse clowns who claim he has cheated to get all his goals

All i'm saying is that leaders should lead by example. One of our major problems over the past few seasons has been our attack on the ball, our willingness to die for the team. From the outside looking in, it doesnt seem like Lloyd shows the team how to do this. Sure he might be a good leader and a "team person", but he needs to set the example on the field, even more so than off it.

 

[ant555]

All i'm saying is that leaders should lead by example. One of our major problems over the past few seasons has been our attack on the ball, our willingness to die for the team. From the outside looking in, it doesnt seem like Lloyd shows the team how to do this. Sure he might be a good leader and a "team person", but he needs to set the example on the field, even more so than off it.

So being a champion player and in the all time top 10 goals kickers isnt enough. So what you are saying in all of his 218 odd games he has failed to show leadership? He has never played a game where he has done inspirational stuff?And his attack on the ball isnt good enough?

I think dumbfounded is the word im looking for

 

[monty1104]

Kicking lots of goals doesnt show leadership. It shows goal kicking skills. Yes he does do inspirational stuff every now and then, but you just need to compare him to some of the other captains to prove what i mean; Kirk, S.Black, Judd, Simpson, Luke Ball just to name some. These guys are all hard at the ball and really inspire the team. Sometimes I really wonder what the team must think when Lloyd once again falls flat on his face and isnt capable of going for a 2nd effort. BTW, I never said Lloyd wasn't a good LEADER, i just said he needs to lead more by example.

 

[Crave]

Kicking lots of goals doesnt show leadership. It shows goal kicking skills. Yes he does do inspirational stuff every now and then, but you just need to compare him to some of the other captains to prove what i mean; Kirk, S.Black, Judd, Simpson, Luke Ball just to name some. These guys are all hard at the ball and really inspire the team. Sometimes I really wonder what the team must think when Lloyd once again falls flat on his face and isnt capable of going for a 2nd effort. BTW, I never said Lloyd wasn't a good LEADER, i just said he needs to lead more by example.

You're comparing a KP, who earns his bread and butter from FF, to on ballers who feature in 85% of the game. Whilst we were on song in the opening few rounds, he virtually sacrificed his entire game to accomodate Lucas and still managed to score 17 of his own along the way.

 

[monty1104]

Like i said, he kicks lots of goals, but it doesnt mean he leads by example. Sacraficing his game was a planned attack. Not everyone can sacrafice their game for the benefit of the team. They can,however, attack each ball as if they were 5 points down in the GF with 2 mins to go. We need desperation and I dont think Lloyd shows enough desperation to get the ball. If he doesnt show it, he isnt leading by example and shouldnt be a role model, in terms of on field actions, for the youngsters to follow.