The what if thread

[Strapping Young Lad]

Tell me you didn't watch the game, without telling me you didn't watch the game.

Sat just behind the cheer squad, although I did duck out to the engravers at half time.

 

[Back One Out]

They did as you got a couple of freebies in front of goals. Eg Buddy 50.

Tell me you didn't watch the game, without telling me you didn't watch the game.

None of the Freo players infringed in the 2013 Grand Final or the 2015 Prelim Final

Every free kick and 50 metre penalty that Hawthorn received was charity.

Every free kick and 50m penalty that Fremantle received was well overdue.

Freo fans aren't embarrassing dickheads either for crying about this shit. Totally justified.

The best team lost. The AFL rigged it for Hawthorn

Hawthorn should hand over their illegitimate cups so Freo can fill their empty trophy cabinet

 

[Scotland]

Neither Richmond nor Carlton needed Judd at the time. These 2 teams finished last and second last in 2007. How TF was Judd going to lift them into premiership contention alone?

Spot on, but given the opportunity to recruit a 24 year old Chris Judd every club would've taken it.

Carlton needed him more. As LOLworthy as Richmond were in the 90s and 2000s they weren't as bad as Carlton post draft sanctions. Getting a marquee player in Judd was as much about giving them relevance as success. Best player in the comp from a year ago + 3 x #1 picks sounds great on paper.

 

[sosos]

It's not a huge stretch to suggest that the recruitment of 3 votes C.Judd saved Carlton from going under.

Yeah, we overpaid from a purely football perspective. But worth every cent for keeping the club afloat.

 

[Masotiger]

It's not a huge stretch to suggest that the recruitment of 3 votes C.Judd saved Carlton from going under.

Yeah, we overpaid from a purely football perspective. But worth every cent for keeping the club afloat.

There's no way Carlton would've gone under. If Richmond didn't go under in 1990, another big club like Carlton wasn't going to either. Not with the AFL flush with funds at the time.

The only defence I would accept from Carlton supporters about the recruitment of Judd is you f'd up just about all your other very early picks and you were odds on doing the same with 3 & 20 in 2007. But Kennedy?? OUCH!!!

 

[sosos]

Disagree. AFL were looking for Melbourne clubs to relocate or fold. Not such a stretch it could have been Carlton.

And what early picks did we stuff up in those days? It was after 2008 we really started picking badly.

The bigger issue then was we kept trading out early picks.

And yeah, Jk hurts. I still maintain it was worth the price.

 

[Tzatziki_Man]

Disagree. AFL were looking for Melbourne clubs to relocate or fold. Not such a stretch it could have been Carlton.

And what early picks did we stuff up in those days? It was after 2008 we really started picking badly.

The bigger issue then was we kept trading out early picks.

And yeah, Jk hurts. I still maintain it was worth the price.

If you think Carlton were ever gonna relocate or fold, you don't know anything about Carlton.

Carlton is/was untouchable

Its unfathomable to maintain St Kilda, Melbourne, Bulldogs, North and Hawthorn ahead of Carlton. Carlton is part of the fabric of the VFL Competition that the AFL'S heritage is inherited from.

Carlton was an absolute rabble and the worst that would happen? AFL would have just taken ownership of the club, paid its debts and kept it in the comp the way it owns the Giants and sun's.

You can't get rid of Carlton, impossible.

 

[sosos]

If you think Carlton were ever gonna relocate or fold, you don't know anything about Carlton.

Carlton is/was untouchable

Its unfathomable to maintain St Kilda, Melbourne, Bulldogs, North and Hawthorn ahead of Carlton. Carlton is part of the fabric of the VFL Competition that the AFL'S heritage is inherited from.

Carlton was an absolute rabble and the worst that would happen? AFL would have just taken ownership of the club, paid its debts and kept it in the comp the way it owns the Giants and sun's.

You can't get rid of Carlton, impossible.

And if they owned it, they could have moved it.

 

[Scotland]

It's not a huge stretch to suggest that the recruitment of 3 votes C.Judd saved Carlton from going under.

Yeah, we overpaid from a purely football perspective. But worth every cent for keeping the club afloat.

The 'what if' for Carlton for mine is how would things have panned out had they given up pick 1 in the 2007 draft - whey were adamant they would not. If you assume they give up picks 1, 3 & 20 instead of 3 & 20 and Kennedy then it changes a number of things.

Carlton had really 6 good years of Judd, 2008-13. Kennedy started to hit his straps in 09/10 and was a 60 goal a year forward from 2011. Carlton had two years of Judd and Fev together and Fev kicked 99 and 89 goals. After that Walker had one good year, Waite was Mr Potential, Betts and Garlett kicked goals etc. but there was no one to genuinely lead the forward line. With Kennedy you get a 2-3 year window with late prime Judd plus a star key forward target. Without pick 1, you don't have Kruezer and maybe Sam Jacobs stays and plays 200 games for the Blues instead of 13. Or maybe you still bring in Warnock and he leaves anyway.

Carlton's 2011 side that won 14 games + Kennedy and Jacobs in place of Kruezer is better. Good enough to challenge Geelong/Collingwood in 2011, Haw/Syd in 2012/13 no, but with another move or two who knows...

 

[Masotiger]

Carlton had two years of Judd and Fev together and Fev kicked 99 and 89 goals.

Wasn't it Judd who wanted Fev out because he was a dill? I reckon Carlton would've kept Fev if Judd wasn't there.

 

[sosos]

Wasn't it Judd who wanted Fev out because he was a dill? I reckon Carlton would've kept Fev if Judd wasn't there.

I've never heard that.

 

[emuboy]

Carlton were terrible from 2002-2007 inclusive, but in 2008 the Blues showed improvement to mid ladder, and this continued in 2009 and 2010 when a gallant Carlton were far from disgraced in narrow Elimination Final losses to Brisbane and Sydney respectively played at the Lions and Swans home grounds.

In 2011, Carlton won their first final in a decade by thrashing Essendon in an Elimination Final, then would play the West Coast Eagles in Perth in a semi final. This game was one of the best finals in years, a high scoring, high standing thriller which saw the Eagles home by 3 points in a match that so easily gone the other way, and though beaten Carlton looked like a team going places. Then the Blues development stalled. The team was inconsistent in 2012 and narrowly missed the finals which saw the Blues replace Brett Ratten

Brett Ratten

Age

53

Ht

184cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.4

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

10.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

3.0

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.4

5star

K

13.8

5star

HB

12.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

with Mick Malthouse, and while the Blues did make the finals in 2013 and beat Richmond in an EF, it was by default as Essendon were removed from the finals. In 2014 Carlton slid down the ladder to 7-15, and in a disastrous 2015 season took home the wooden spoon.

I have often wondered what would have happened if that 2011 final against the Eagles had gone the other way and Carlton had made the PF against Geelong. Short term I have no doubt. The Cats would have comfortably accounted for the Blues in the Preliminary as they did with the Eagles before going on to win the Premiership, but would the Blues still have stalled in their development before falling to the bottom of the ladder by 2015?

 

[Masotiger]

I've never heard that.

I think it was implied.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Carlton were terrible from 2002-2007 inclusive, but in 2008 the Blues showed improvement to mid ladder, and this continued in 2009 and 2010 when a gallant Carlton were far from disgraced in narrow Elimination Final losses to Brisbane and Sydney respectively played at the Lions and Swans home grounds.

In 2011, Carlton won their first final in a decade by thrashing Essendon in an Elimination Final, then would play the West Coast Eagles in Perth in a semi final. This game was one of the best finals in years, a high scoring, high standing thriller which saw the Eagles home by 3 points in a match that so easily gone the other way, and though beaten Carlton looked like a team going places. Then the Blues development stalled. The team was inconsistent in 2012 and narrowly missed the finals which saw the Blues replace Brett Ratten with Mick Malthouse, and while the Blues did make the finals in 2013 and beat Richmond in an EF, it was by default as Essendon were removed from the finals. In 2014 Carlton slid down the ladder to 7-15, and in a disastrous 2015 season took home the wooden spoon.

I have often wondered what would have happened if that 2011 final against the Eagles had gone the other way and Carlton had made the PF against Geelong. Short term I have no doubt. The Cats would have comfortably accounted for the Blues in the Preliminary as they did with the Eagles before going on to win the Premiership, but would the Blues still have stalled in their development before falling to the bottom of the ladder by 2015?

Basically a one player team, as soon as Judd declined so did Carlton.

 

[Blues177]

I have often wondered what would have happened if that 2011 final against the Eagles had gone the other way and Carlton had made the PF against Geelong. Short term I have no doubt. The Cats would have comfortably accounted for the Blues in the Preliminary as they did with the Eagles before going on to win the Premiership, but would the Blues still have stalled in their development before falling to the bottom of the ladder by 2015?

Too many busts or poor development of players from the 2010-2012 drafts.
Matthew Watson, Patrick Mc Carthy, Luke Mitchell, Andrew McInness, Josh Bootsma, Dylan Buckley, Troy Menzel, Tom Temay, Nick Graham.

 

[sosos]

Too many busts or poor development of players from the 2010-2012 drafts.
Matthew Watson, Patrick Mc Carthy, Luke Mitchell, Andrew McInness, Josh Bootsma, Dylan Buckley, Troy Menzel, Tom Temay, Nick Graham.

Sad reading there, but I wouldn't include McInnes in that list. Was looking the goods, but got crueled by injury.

 

[Taper]

What if Carlton stuck with Ratten in 2012 instead of sacking him?
What if Richmond sacked Hardwick in 2016 instead of sticking with him?

 

[mianfei]

Absolutely. North were also done by 150 points earlier that season by Fitzroy. Not sure Essendon would have found Hawthorn as easy as North were, but if they'd gotten through to the GF they might have stumbled there as they did in real life, just like everyone previously who'd made the GF from EF...Fitzroy would have been waiting...

And in hindsight, it's the only Hawk flag I'd happily sacrifice for another club...

Essendon, actually, had beaten Hawthorn by eight goals at Windy Hill in Round 19, so they might well have been able to do it again in the First Semi-Final. The real question is just how good were Hawthorn from Round 21? Their huge wins over injury-sapped Melbourne and a declining Geelong were probably not a serious Test compared to Collingwood and Richmond, whom Fitzroy defeated in the last two home-and-away rounds and who were playing much better.

 

[Senor Ed]

What if the Dogs had beaten Adelaide last week, knock off GWS this Sunday, and Freo beat Port?

Dogs would finish the season 2nd, but instead we're battling to stay in the 8.

 

[mianfei]

What if Carlton stuck with Ratten in 2012 instead of sacking him?

That’s an interesting one because others — including a Carlton fan with whom I was working moving my brother’s furniture during their disastrous 2018 season — said that Carlton’s rise between 2009 and 2011 was entirely due to Judd.

However, Michael Malthouse, even possessing such a good record as he did with the Bulldogs, Eagles and Magpies, was really too old and if I recall correctly I was personally very suspicious of the decision at the time. Ratten’s subsequent record as a coach with St. Kilda and North Melbourne is mediocre, but still his record with the Saints is better than Malthouse’s with the Blues.

Going back 10 years to the early 1960s and before country zoning, do you know some of the reasons why Fitzroy declined so fast after a promising start to that decade? From 1958-1961, things looked pretty good for the Lions. They made the finals in 1958 and 1960, and were very stiff to narrowly miss September action in even seasons in 1959 and 1961. They also were unlucky not to make the 1960 Grand Final against Melbourne, and at the time the Lions' stretch without a flag dating back to 1944 was more a lengthy dry spell than a fully fledged drought. However, in 1962 Fitzroy slumped to 10th with a 5–13 record, then were last in 1963 (1–17) and 1964 (0–18), second last in 1965 (4-14), back to 12th in 1966 (1–17) 11th in 1967 (4–14) and again in 1968 (4–16), and while the Lions 7–13 season in 1969 was an improvement, Fitzroy could still finish no higher than 10th.

Most significantly, I remember reading that in 1964 Fitzroy League and Reserves both went winless, and their Under 19s managed just 1 win for the entire season, and obviously a hat-trick of wooden spoons for the Lions. I'm not sure if Fitzroy's Reserves and Under 19s struggled in other years during this poor era, but the steep decline from the promising very early 1960s is extraordinary and I've never been sure what caused it.

Essentially, Fitzroy declined so rapidly in the early 1960s because:

1. their local catchment was after the 1951 immigration plans re-populated with Italians, Yugoslavs and Greeks with zero interest in Australian Rules
2. their former support base moved out to newly developing suburbs and lost interest in a team that was very remote from them
   • more or less the same thing happened to Footscray, South Melbourne and North Melbourne, if not necessarily with the same extreme effects as with Fitzroy
3. the club was, despite the innovative coaching of Len Smith (brother of Norm) utterly unable to compete with Essendon, Geelong, Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond for top country or interstate players after 1961
4. the club’s lack of success since the middle 1920s (as of 1967, Fitzroy had played finals just six times since 1925 one must remember) meant top country players had zero interest in playing for them even besides lack of money
5. the new country and interstate recruits, who emerged in 1962, which Fitzroy had essentially zero access to increased the standard of play at the “big five”, thus weakening remaining clubs severely

 

[Cleric]

What if Phil Walsh hadn't of been killed?

 

[Billy ray]

What if Raygun was good?

 

[terrybull]

What if the more successful club at the time Port Melbourne would have got St.Kilda’s spot in 1897?

Don’t think they would have lost 48 games in a row, in fact Carlton probably had gone winless in their first season.

Port probably would have snagged a few Premierships as well.

Bob Skilton stays with Port instead of moving to South Melbourne?

Maybe even Port and South merge instead of one going to Sydney. In turn the Lions move there…

And what of St.Kilda? Apply to join later, and instead of someone else? Premierships success in the VFA?

 

[lumpinee]

what if Ray Huppatz doesnt unbelievably spoil his own team mate,Phil Baker, from marking on his chest in the goalsquare 5 mins into the third qtr ? North are 10 pts up & dominating after initially trailling by as much as 25 points 10 mins into the 2nd
Baker woulda been 2 metres out n Norths lead 16pts with all the momentum,a 7 goal swing in just 25 mins ,the biggest turning point in a grand final never talked about imo

 

[Tall poppy Syndrome]

What if the more successful club at the time Port Melbourne would have got St.Kilda’s spot in 1897?

Don’t think they would have lost 48 games in a row, in fact Carlton probably had gone winless in their first season.

Port probably would have snagged a few Premierships as well.

Bob Stilton stays with Port instead of moving to South Melbourne?

Maybe even Port and South merge instead of one going to Sydney. In turn the Lions move there…

And what of St.Kilda? Apply to join later, and instead of someone else? Premierships success in the VFA?

I’d make a joke about your Bob Stilton typo but that would be too cheesy…I’ll see myself out.