The wooden spoon needs the attention it deserves

[Crow-mo]

Brisbane Lions is the only club to finish 16th and then go on to win a flag, so the practice of winning wooden spoons doesn't exacting sound like a recipe for success to me.

and there is a lot more to that story, than just that.
Brisbane already had one of the better lists in the league, and had been performing at a very high level. however the politics of their situation and off field turmoil conspired against them, and they went crashing down in 1997/98.

they were always cherry ripe for resurgence which is Matthews and Gubby Allen were so happy to go up there and sort it out.

 

[Crow-mo]

how doesn't make sense. If no salary cap and relegation/promotion is introduced, Carlton will not play at the venue they are forced to play in by the AFL and instead play at our very own venue where we dont need 30k to break even. Right now West Coast and Fremantle have the best deal with their stadium with subi... should salary cap / promotion/relegation be introduced, they will continue to pay the rent for subi... while we pay nothing for out ground... hence we make more... you understand now?

What people struggle to understand is, as soon as regulation and promotion/demotion is introduced, the AFL cannot inforce rules on club administrations as they do now. Clubs would have to work out their own stadium deals or if they want to own their own stadium. All the AFL would do is organise the comp and no more

lol...Dick Pratt alone would have more money than the other 15 clubs put together... and not to speak of his "friends" at in one dinner gathered $2million in an instance.

This is what proves you are an idiot. Explain why there are so many 80s hawthorn supporters??? it because the kids/teens/new afl lovers that grew up/lived through the 80s jumped on the most successful team. I'm not saying for existing supporters to jump ship, i'm saying for the new breed.

I know this is all hard for you to comprehend, so i'll give you a couple of hours...

and to the geelong person... who cares where we were in our dark days? we had the worst administration and carlton's biggest (money wise) supporters were against the administration. As soon as they got the boot, the old boys came back. Ian Collins used carlton for his own benefit as much as he can. Being the president of TD you would think he'd work out a good deal for carlton... instead he got rid of our beloved OO and signed us up to the worst imaginary deal.

I'm starting to appreciate your rare genius.

a genius for buffoonery, and being able to fit both feet in your mouth whilst typing.

you're a legend, keep it up!

 

[tesseract]

That is true but why do teams not feel the shame of the wooden spoon? After all there is no worse feat in AFL footy than finishing on the bottom.

Rosstickle, you and I both know it's the reward of great draft picks and the priority pick system which allows any team that way inclined to ruthlessly exploit it. The AFL is business, and success equates into dollars.
Though the system is flawed, it's the lesser of two evils when compared to the open slather free market.
Finishing mid table is no mans land. It's not a premiership and the money that comes with it and its not bottom two, so as to get the best talent for future success. Constantly finishing mid table is not only mediocre, but leads to long term mediocrity as a team finishing there doesn't get access to the best talent on offer. IMO, teams are willing to take a blow to their pride and finish down the bottom of the table and take the draft picks on offer, rather than finish mid table and not get much.
It's not ideal but that's the reality of the modern game.
As far as a competition goes, it's not so good, but it's a smart business plan for the longer term and it's within the boundary of the current laws of the AFL.
For anyone who says tanking is not part of the rules, their case would have to be proven to the AFL which upon being proven would immediately bring a change to the laws governing drafting.
The chances of ever proving tanking IMO are nil. There's to many loopholes and the AFL have no power to govern team management.

 

[Thrawn]

stupid idea,
1. there is no evidence that tanking exists

But... but... they were playing their kids! Oh, and benching a star player for 5 minutes.

 

[ShinSplints]

why cant it be...

1. ZONING DRAFT

where eams have the opportunitty to draft/add yougsters or anyone from their zone then...

2. THE DRAFT
the rest of the draftees put into the draft and we have the system that is in place!!

wouldnt that be better?? We'd actually have victorians playing for victorian teams and vice versa!

Agree we need to punish the &^%$ teams instead of giving them the best picks, money and all the prizes when 9th placed or even teams that do well consistnetly get nothing but heartache.

Still losing is punishment and coming last is still not worth the first pick after all one player cant change a club its culture, facilkities, supporters coaches now can it???

GT got the saints up and running not some draft!

Look at freo given everything but with their culture etc. still couldnt get anywhere near the flag becaiuse of there inept culture, coaches, supporters etc. get it?

 

[Rosstickle]

Rosstickle, you and I both know it's the reward of great draft picks and the priority pick system which allows any team that way inclined to ruthlessly exploit it. The AFL is business, and success equates into dollars.
Though the system is flawed, it's the lesser of two evils when compared to the open slather free market.
Finishing mid table is no mans land. It's not a premiership and the money that comes with it and its not bottom two, so as to get the best talent for future success. Constantly finishing mid table is not only mediocre, but leads to long term mediocrity as a team finishing there doesn't get access to the best talent on offer. IMO, teams are willing to take a blow to their pride and finish down the bottom of the table and take the draft picks on offer, rather than finish mid table and not get much.
It's not ideal but that's the reality of the modern game.
As far as a competition goes, it's not so good, but it's a smart business plan for the longer term and it's within the boundary of the current laws of the AFL.
For anyone who says tanking is not part of the rules, their case would have to be proven to the AFL which upon being proven would immediately bring a change to the laws governing drafting.
The chances of ever proving tanking IMO are nil. There's to many loopholes and the AFL have no power to govern team management.

That's the thing though, why is the distant future of the team so much more important the near future? Why is it OK to suffer the ultimate disgrace for the slight chance you might claim the ultimate success. Why is winning games no longer valued if you don't win a flag? Isn't that why we compete? To beat our opponents? What's the point of dropping lots of games at the present for the oppurtunity to possibly win a games in the future?

The thing that annoys me the most is why is 9-12th considered no mans land and 5-8 acceptable? Some of these teams might finish with 12-10 records, which is pretty mediocre yet be satisfied with it because they're playing finals. Even though apparently nobody values finals and only wants flags.

A lot of the reason you beat the other team is so you can have bragging rights. Why do only premiership teams get bragging rights? Just because they can rip on anyone they want? Why is it better to finish last and be mocked by everyone with the hope you might be better in the future than to finish say 6th and be better than 10 other teams?

Have people not seen what Geelong have done in the last few years? They didn't even get near a spoon yet they've managed to build one of the most dominant teams we've seen in a long time.

I just find this whole way of thinking to be very bi-polar.

 

[malph]

how doesn't make sense. If no salary cap and relegation/promotion is introduced, Carlton will not play at the venue they are forced to play in by the AFL and instead play at our very own venue where we dont need 30k to break even. Right now West Coast and Fremantle have the best deal with their stadium with subi... should salary cap / promotion/relegation be introduced, they will continue to pay the rent for subi... while we pay nothing for out ground... hence we make more... you understand now?

What people struggle to understand is, as soon as regulation and promotion/demotion is introduced, the AFL cannot inforce rules on club administrations as they do now. Clubs would have to work out their own stadium deals or if they want to own their own stadium. All the AFL would do is organise the comp and no more

How does abolishing the salary cap and introducing relegation equate to the AFL giving up total control of who plays where? Why does the AFL running the AFL not mean that the AFL still controls the terms upon which once-relegated teams return to the premier league?

I find hypothetical fantasy fun to play with, which is why I'm wasting my time here, but you're drawing a line between A and C, and ignoring the logic to explain what happened to B.

This is what proves you are an idiot. Explain why there are so many 80s hawthorn supporters??? it because the kids/teens/new afl lovers that grew up/lived through the 80s jumped on the most successful team. I'm not saying for existing supporters to jump ship, i'm saying for the new breed.

That may have worked in Victoria, but I grew up in the 80s, and I didn't give a flying f**k about Hawthorn - Port Adelaide has always been my love, and I would just switch to the SANFL incarnation.

Read this carefully: your fantasy land once existed, 20 years ago, and it went broke.

 

[RandB]

Melbourne have the flag rapped for the next few years, and even then they still wont win a thing.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Rockford]

Agree we need to punish the &^%$ teams instead of giving them the best picks, money and all the prizes when 9th placed or even teams that do well consistnetly get nothing but heartache.

You make a good point. They could have a lottery where all of the bottom 8 teams (or all teams that missed finals once GC17 and WS18 come along) have an equal chance of getting the 1-8 picks. Then the clubs that made finals get picks 9-16 as per the usual system.

 

[GordonBlue]

If the AFL were to scrap the salary cap, and provide promotion and demotion, they can't stand in the way of a side trying to generate as much money as they can. It becomes all about the club and how big they can get. In a competition where salary cap are inforced, then it's all about the growth of the AFL. This is the main difference people can't comprehend.

Basically it would become like the premierleague. In the EPL there is no handouts, no enforced deals... all the EPL does is provide a competition, and it's up to the teams to keep afloat. There would be no free players like the GC are gonna get, and there will be free agency.

 

[WeninRome]

Psh, Adelaide/West coast/Essendon make much more money then Carlton

Carlton has the financial backer with the most money, so how do you figure this?

 

[RUNVS]

I'd like to see the opposite of when they refer to players as a "Premiership Player"

"Introducing 3-time wooden spooner.....Brendan Fevola!"

Brilliant. I am going to try and do this.

As for the Swans well we were apsolute shite for a very long time but hopefully the dark days of the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's are behind us

 

[Rosstickle]

I'd like to see the opposite of when they refer to players as a "Premiership Player"

"Introducing 3-time wooden spooner.....Brendan Fevola!"

Introducing 0 time premiership player and 5 time wooden spooner..... Tony Lockett

Just think if he had've gone to Sydney 3 years earlier that could be 8.

 

[WEARECOLLINGWOOD!]

Richard Pratt.

oh that low life piece of crap all you carlton supporters ildolise???

Says alot about your club & its supporters..

Anyway pinning your hopes on a 80 year old criminal is not very wise!!

 

[NYJetsfor2029]

Basically it would become like the premierleague. In the EPL there is no handouts, no enforced deals... all the EPL does is provide a competition, and it's up to the teams to keep afloat. There would be no free players like the GC are gonna get, and there will be free agency.

Ah gordan now i see why you're so deluded. Please read carefully, The AFL is not, repeat NOT, the EPL. and Carlton are not Chelsea.

I can see why you're confused, Chlesea Blues - Carlton Blues.... most kids would make that mistake.

However Carlton is no chelsea and Pratt is no Roman Abramovich. Pratt isn't carltons owner and won't make money by bying the best players like Roman does (though i think things are going bad for him too). Also pratty doesnt have the disposable income Abramovich does, especially in this economic climate.... and his cardboard is old news, perspex is the way of the future

 

[Philth]

That is true but why do teams not feel the shame of the wooden spoon? After all there is no worse feat in AFL footy than finishing on the bottom.

I think they DO feel it mate, but I guess people just try not to dwell on the embarrasment of 'winning' a spoon. I don't know about you, but I was absolutely gutted and pissed off with our last 2 spoons. 04 we were crap, but I think the Hawks were worse, and 07 was totally unexpected, I actually thought we were a chance for the 8 that year. Sure we've got some great draft picks from finishing last, but i hope we NEVER win another spoon.

 

[tesseract]

That's the thing though, why is the distant future of the team so much more important the near future? Why is it OK to suffer the ultimate disgrace for the slight chance you might claim the ultimate success. Why is winning games no longer valued if you don't win a flag? Isn't that why we compete? To beat our opponents? What's the point of dropping lots of games at the present for the oppurtunity to possibly win a games in the future?

The thing that annoys me the most is why is 9-12th considered no mans land and 5-8 acceptable? Some of these teams might finish with 12-10 records, which is pretty mediocre yet be satisfied with it because they're playing finals. Even though apparently nobody values finals and only wants flags.

A lot of the reason you beat the other team is so you can have bragging rights. Why do only premiership teams get bragging rights? Just because they can rip on anyone they want? Why is it better to finish last and be mocked by everyone with the hope you might be better in the future than to finish say 6th and be better than 10 other teams?

Have people not seen what Geelong have done in the last few years? They didn't even get near a spoon yet they've managed to build one of the most dominant teams we've seen in a long time.

I just find this whole way of thinking to be very bi-polar.

To put it plainly, the team management don't care as much as the fans about an extra win or two. Team management have the bigger picture in mind. From their perspective, if your going to have a year where you can't make finals, then you might as well have something to show for it as a payoff. The mind set of the fan compared to team management is poles apart I'm sure.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Couldn't help noticing there have been no posts on this thread from us Sainters... ah, sigh...

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

create a second league, with relegation.

Get rid of the Draft. and salary cap.

I think that will stop tanking and make the league more competitive from 3-16 (Adelaide and West Coast 1 and 2)

I fully agree with scrapping the draft. It rewards failure. The cap is genuinely an equalisation measure, the draft simply forces even the most well run clubs into periodical on-field mediocrity.

 

[Crow-mo]

If the AFL were to scrap the salary cap, and provide promotion and demotion, they can't stand in the way of a side trying to generate as much money as they can. It becomes all about the club and how big they can get. In a competition where salary cap are inforced, then it's all about the growth of the AFL. This is the main difference people can't comprehend.

Basically it would become like the premierleague. In the EPL there is no handouts, no enforced deals... all the EPL does is provide a competition, and it's up to the teams to keep afloat. There would be no free players like the GC are gonna get, and there will be free agency.

pure genius!

the relegation system is the only reason EPL clubs can spend what they like, not the incorporate structure and european law.

hail hail!