The Worsfold coaching situation mega-thread, part 2

[Miguel Sanchez]

All things senior-coach related in here.

Following on from part 1

 

[Mattman93]

Knife the ****.

 

[WCE_phil]

All things considered i dont think anyone is expecting overnight success or some amazing turn around.

I think at the core all we want is honesty, transparency and some signs that we are moving forward.

Continuing to make the same mistakes, play the same structures and rely on the same people expecting different results is getting us nowhere. TBH currently any coach would do a better job than woosha and his crew. Purely on the basis that it will show us a different perspective of our squad, our coaches and our overall football department.

It basically boils down to one main point. If we arent moving forward then we are moving backwards. Its all relative. If we sit still and play the same poor brand of football while the opposition is moving further ahead then we are moving backwards from the perspective of relativity.

 

[lewigie]

agree with OP.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

TO FALCON STRIKE

Bailey's record may be fractionally worse than Worsfold's. And i am sure that if Melbourne continued to play at that level this year his tenure at the club would be under severe threat.

But there are two big distinctions between that situation and Worsfold's. Firstly, all reasonable football fans know and would agree that Melbourne have blatantly tanked for the last two years and this tanking was sanctioned and encouraged by the admin. Gary Lyon admitted as much last Monday on Footy Classified when he interviewed Brent Moloney. He didn't use the word tank but he blatantly stated that the club wasn't interested in winning games of footy for the last two years and wanted the best picks it could get. They made a very conscious decision at that footy club to bottom out and tank. They traded off the tradeable commodities that they could trade off, e.g. Johnstone and McClean, offered others for sale that they could not get rid of, e.g. Bruce and Green, and sacked all the other older players such as White and Robertson. The club couldn't very well punish Bailey for that and hold it against him when they gave him specific instructions to bottom the club and get the best picks he could and to sell off everything that was saleable.

That is in stark contrast to our club who made the exact opposite decision. at Worsfold's urging, not to bottom out and not to sell or sack any senior players. Wosfold reckoned we were still a top 4 side and refused to regenerate.

The other difference is that Melbourne are broke and Dean Bailey gets paid about half of what the assistants at our club get paid. They could not afford to sack him and pay him out and if they did sack him the list of people they could replace him with would be very slim and it certainly would not include anybody experienced and previously successfull, so what would they gain?

Even ignoring those two key differences, combing through and trying to cherry pick someone mildy less successfull statistically than Worsfold in the same period is not an argument for keeping him.

 

[anti_]

it was the best of times...it was the blurst of times?!?!

 

[The Falcon Strike]

TO FALCON STRIKE

That is in stark contrast to our club who made the exact opposite decision. at Worsfold's urging, not to bottom out and not to sell or sack any senior players. Wosfold reckoned we were still a top 4 side and refused to regenerate.

Even ignoring those two key differences, combing through and trying to cherry pick someone mildy less successfull statistically than Worsfold in the same period is not an argument for keeping him.

Point 1

How can you say we haven't regenerated and Melbourne have - we are playing with a younger team, less games experience and a greater turnover of senior players than Melbourne. We have in fact had a greater regeneration - you don't want to see it for some reason. I have posted a large number of stats - not made up - actual stats of how inexperienced/young our side is compared to the rest of the competition (bar Richmond).

Point 2

Secondly in response the cherry picking - can you not see the irony of you picking a date mid-season in 2007 and then accusing someone else of cherry picking for an argument? Mine was simply a retort using a time frame that not only weakened my argument (i.e was the worst winning percentage subset for woosha) but also aligned with the influx of a coach that is being lauded for their work that came in at the same time.

 

[Biggie]

We found a replacement coach yet?

 

[WCE_phil]

We found a replacement coach yet?

Your avatar would go alright yeah

 

[Hap Hapablap]

Your avatar would go alright yeah

agreed

 

[WCE_phil]

pity the norks are fake. But everyone has their fair share of problems.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

Point 1

How can you say we haven't regenerated and Melbourne have - we are playing with a younger team, less games experience and a greater turnover of senior players than Melbourne. We have in fact had a greater regeneration - you don't want to see it for some reason. I have posted a large number of stats - not made up - actual stats of how inexperienced/young our side is compared to the rest of the competition (bar Richmond).

Point 2

Secondly in response the cherry picking - can you not see the irony of you picking a date mid-season in 2007 and then accusing someone else of cherry picking for an argument? Mine was simply a retort using a time frame that not only weakened my argument (i.e was the worst winning percentage subset for woosha) but also aligned with the influx of a coach that is being lauded for their work that came in at the same time.

You posted stats pertaining to the teams that ran out this weekend. We are comparing stats about the two coaches over the last 2 years, during which time Melbourne have placed much more emphasis on youth than us and fielded much younger teams. And Melbourne (wisely) tanked and we (foolishly) didn't.

And the stats you posted don't even point to a big gulf in experience between the two sides as you are suggesting. What were they? Melbourne had two more players with 100 games than us this weekend? Big deal. Are you suggesting if we had had say Adam Selwood and Stenglein out there this arvo we would have won? Or even that the end margin would have been considerably different? And measuring the number of 100 game players is only way of measuring experience anyway. Having an extra two 100 game players doesn't mean that the whole side is vastly more experienced.

If you are buying Worsfold's crap that everything that has hapenned is purely and solely due to youth and there are no other contributing factors then i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you. Last Monday on 6PR Worsfold got shot down in flames because he tried to hide behind that excuse again and Langdon and Hardie went through the average age and games played of Richmond, Melburne, Fremantle and North Melbourne aswell as the eagles and there is nothing between any of them. All in the same ballpark. But those other 4 teams are playing as poorly as us.

 

[GO EAGLES]

WORSFOLD IS THE MAN FOR THE JOB.

In our transition period.


It is so obvious !!!!!!!!!!!

Eagles and their fans are being hammered by certain sections of the media and no one can even breathe properly. No one can now focus on what the problems are and are spitting out emotional trash.

I cannot believe

Its like a jungle out there.

The psychological warfare is now getting intense

and the Eagles slayers are winning the battle at the moment

but the WAR ???????

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Just thinking further about our side, the age, the common culprits and then thinking about the wins we have had this year.

Against Essendon the votes on this board roughly went to

Best: Priddis and NicNat
Next Rung in Order: LeCras, Cox, Waters, Glass
Random Inclusions: Rosa, Embley, Schofield

Against Hawthorn the votes on this board went to
Best: Kennedy
Next Rung: LeCras, Cox, Naitanui,
Random: Stevenson, Swift, Ebert, Rosa


Against Melbourne the votes on this board went to
Best: Cox
Next Rung: Priddis, Rosa, Waters
Random: Schofield, Hurn, Adam Selwood

Of the blokes to be in the best or next rung - only NicNat has played less than 50 games. The other 7 blokes named have all played more.

Now consider we had 12 of our 22 players today under 50 games experience.

So for those asking for more kids (of which we have a truckload already) - consider that if we had more kids and were in fact removing the guys who have games under their belt - we might be staring at 0-13 at the minute as it isn't the kids that delivered the wins - it was the senior guys.

 

[swannies]

Just thinking further about our side, the age, the common culprits and then thinking about the wins we have had this year.

Against Essendon the votes on this board roughly went to

Best: Priddis and NicNat
Next Rung in Order: LeCras, Cox, Waters, Glass
Random Inclusions: Rosa, Embley, Schofield

Against Hawthorn the votes on this board went to
Best: Kennedy
Next Rung: LeCras, Cox, Naitanui,
Random: Stevenson, Swift, Ebert, Rosa


Against Melbourne the votes on this board went to
Best: Cox
Next Rung: Priddis, Rosa, Waters
Random: Schofield, Hurn, Adam Selwood

Of the blokes to be in the best or next rung - only NicNat has played less than 50 games. The other 7 blokes named have all played more.

Now consider we had 12 of our 22 players today under 50 games experience.

So for those asking for more kids (of which we have a truckload already) - consider that if we had more kids and were in fact removing the guys who have games under their belt - we might be staring at 0-13 at the minute as it isn't the kids that delivered the wins - it was the senior guys.

Compared to the Bulldogs with 16 of 22 with over 100 games.

Oh, and stop talking sense Falcon Strijk, because there'll be none of that on this board. You should be carded!

 

[The Falcon Strike]

You posted stats pertaining to the teams that ran out this weekend. We are comparing stats about the two coaches over the last 2 years, during which time Melbourne have placed much more emphasis on youth than us and fielded much younger teams. And Melbourne (wisely) tanked and we (foolishly) didn't.

And the stats you posted don't even point to a big gulf in experience between the two sides as you are suggesting. What were they? Melbourne had two more players with 100 games than us this weekend? Big deal. Are you suggesting if we had had say Adam Selwood and Stenglein out there this arvo we would have won? Or even that the end margin would have been considerably different? And measuring the number of 100 game players is only way of measuring experience anyway. Having an extra two 100 game players doesn't mean that the whole side is vastly more experienced.

If you are buying Worsfold's crap that everything that has hapenned is purely and solely due to youth and there are no other contributing factors then i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you. Last Monday on 6PR Worsfold got shot down in flames because he tried to hide behind that excuse again and Langdon and Hardie went through the average age and games played of Richmond, Melburne, Fremantle and North Melbourne aswell as the eagles and there is nothing between any of them. All in the same ballpark. But those other 4 teams are playing as poorly as us.

I pointed out Melbourne's stats - and while's there's not a gulf in difference in age/experience - neither is their success this year - remembering we beat them on their own turf.

You actually haven't actually backed anything up that you have said except a win/loss ratio from the middle of a year. If you are now relying on Brad Hardie for your stats - then i'm happy to have $50 on the nose with you and Brad. (A dig at brad and not you)

Compared to the 22 that ran out on the park in the finals of 2006 for Melbourne, Freo and WC and 2007 for North - we have turned over more players in our regular starting 22 than any of those teams.

I'm not buying anyone's crap - i don't have fox to listen to press conferences and i don't very often get to listen to 6pr - i'm making a decision based on what i see in front of me.

If Woosha gets sacked, I'm not overly fussed - but let it be for a reason that is actually based on evidence and not simply based on people's expectations not being met this year.

Edit: I might add as vehemently opposed in view as we appear to be on our list - i have actually enjoyed the debate. Whilst we might be criticising the validity of each other's arguments it hasn't got into personal insults which is largely surprising on this forum)

 

[Mattman93]

it was the best of times...it was the blurst of times?!?!

Lulz

 

[Beacon29]

All this talk about kids and what not is pretty ridiculous.

The issue for me, is how poorly you play. There is no system, the skills are not improving a forward line has not been formulated for how long?

Keep talking about other sides at your peril.

Those sides are playing brands of football which have purpose and will win more games of football as the players mature.

Not the case with West Coast, there's no run, overlap, do you play throught the corridor? Do you play on at all costs?

It's just a mess and has been since the departure of two match winners.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

It's just a mess and has been since the departure of two match winners.

Serious question - do you think Freo would be in the finals without Pavlich and Sandilands?

 

[swannies]

All this talk about kids and what not is pretty ridiculous.

The issue for me, is how poorly you play. There is no system, the skills are not improving a forward line has not been formulated for how long?

Keep talking about other sides at your peril.

Those sides are playing brands of football which have purpose and will win more games of football as the players mature.

Not the case with West Coast, there's no run, overlap, do you play throught the corridor? Do you play on at all costs?

It's just a mess and has been since the departure of two match winners.

Then explain the difference between Freo this year and last? I'm not having a shot at Freo, I'm saying that things can turn around pretty quickly in sports, unless you're the Australian cricket team in the mid 80's and lose Lillee, Chappell and Marsh very quickly.

 

[Beacon29]

Then explain the difference between Freo this year and last? I'm not having a shot at Freo, I'm saying that things can turn around pretty quickly in sports, unless you're the Australian cricket team in the mid 80's and lose Lillee, Chappell and Marsh very quickly.

We've had a full list for one.

Secondly we were competitive last year without being able to get over the line.

Harves has also been exceptional from a coaching perspective.

The full zone is working wonders, our tackling is very good, we use space better than most.

Last year we had bulk players out, no doubt we have matured faster than anticipated, Harves pretty much said as much in a members function last week.

But there is a gameplan, talent and tackling pressure.

 

[Beacon29]

Serious question - do you think Freo would be in the finals without Pavlich and Sandilands?

They've been at the club for some time, how it's relevant to your club Im not sure.

This year, absolutely.

In case you havent noticed we have some a decent midfield, with a plethora of options who can rotate forward.

Barlow 4 goals and 30 possies, not too bad.

I've also been impressed our depth this year, we've covered the the absence of Macpharlin and Broughton fairly well.

Anyone who underrates the impact of Hill, Mundy, Barlow and more recently, Fyfe isnt paying enough attention.

No doubt they are two important pieces of the puzzle.

 

[swannies]

We've had a full list for one.

Secondly we were competitive last year without being able to get over the line.

Harves has also been exceptional from a coaching perspective.

The full zone is working wonders, our tackling is very good, we use space better than most.

Last year we had bulk players out, no doubt we have matured faster than anticipated, Harves pretty much said as much in a members function last week.

But there is a gameplan, talent and tackling pressure.

Pretty good assessment. It's certainly been faster than anticipated. I presume Brad Lloyd has a lot to do with the talent part?

Freo and Melbourne benefitted from having to play these kids because of injuries etc. I think the Eagles will too in the next couple of years, but we'll see. As long as Swannies win the premiership, I won't care!

 

[RoJo Junior]

All this talk about kids and what not is pretty ridiculous.

The issue for me, is how poorly you play. There is no system, the skills are not improving a forward line has not been formulated for how long?

Keep talking about other sides at your peril.

Those sides are playing brands of football which have purpose and will win more games of football as the players mature.

Not the case with West Coast, there's no run, overlap, do you play throught the corridor? Do you play on at all costs?

It's just a mess and has been since the departure of two match winners.

This is the main thing. It's been noticable for a long time too. It was frustrating to watch our reluctance to do these things and then watch as opposition sides do this on the counter after we turn it over, and just make it look so easy.

We make our goals so hard to come by, because we continually slow the play down, using 20m chip passes along the boundary, options that are low percentage plays, and gain next to nothing when it comes off. Our skills are poor, if we don't hit the target then we force ourselves into a string of hospital handpasses &/or blindly hack the ball forward to outnumbered contests where the opposition have loose players at the fall of the ball and inevitably turn the ball over. It's almost unbearable, there is no structure and it's why these losses are hard to watch.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

We've had a full list for one.

Secondly we were competitive last year without being able to get over the line.

Harves has also been exceptional from a coaching perspective.

The full zone is working wonders, our tackling is very good, we use space better than most.

Last year we had bulk players out, no doubt we have matured faster than anticipated, Harves pretty much said as much in a members function last week.

But there is a gameplan, talent and tackling pressure.

You had a percentage of 77.34% as opposed to our 78.36%

You got beaten by 10 goals on 5 occasions, including one by 117 points in a game you scored 1 goal and another to the eventual wooden spooners.

Today was the first time this year we were beaten by 10 goals.

How was that gameplan, talent and tackling pressure looking when you scored 1 goal?

My point is - it's easy to make grand statements when the reality is significantly different.