Time to go Izzy

[Flukey!]

I was hoping to see him on the weekend and didn't click he was in the magoos.
He has played 7 games of AFL. If Walls was calling someones career over at that stage for any other player in the comp, he would be told to pull his head in.
Give the guy a break.

 

[Demonheart]

The amount of publicity and commentary that Folau has brought to the AFL and GWS in the rugby playing states let alone the traditional AFL playing states has been worth the investment. Take the Walls article for instance. It's keeping GWS in front of the public and providing a topical point of discussion.

A 160 point loss also keeps them in front of the public and providing a point of discussion, perhaps they should do it more often?

I've heard this stuff about Folau and marketing, yeah it's great. But, what happens if he decides to go back to League? All the millions they've spent will be for nothing, their major signing coup going back to rugby? What message will that send to the Sydney public?

I can just see the press conference - "Had a great time playing AFL and made heaps of money but League will always be the better game..."

Oh yeah, great marketing for the AFL. Massive risk they're making with the AFL's money, I hope it works.

 

[MF]

I would have preferred that Folau worked out for GWS and if he leaves nobody should lose a heap of sleep over it. Naturally RL types will claim he's come back home and the AFL was stupid where AFL followers may claim one of RL's brightest stars couldn't cut it in the AFL thus demonstrating AFL's superiority over NRL.

It's another chapter in the perennial AFL vs Rugby League debate.

It's kind of hard for them to mount a strong argument either way when Hunt has succeeded and Falou has failed. One thing we can be sure of though is that the NRL media and fans will still be talking about our game a hell of a lot more than we'll be discussing theirs.

 

[Ron The Bear]

The only relevant comparisons we have are Karmichael Hunt and Mike Pyke, both further down the track than Folau and both doing very well, so I think going on their example he'll come good.

Based on that, every Irishman would be Jim Stynes.

 

[Rack Watts]

Heard that yesterday.

Second first then.

 

[ausbacker]

A 160 point loss also keeps them in front of the public and providing a point of discussion, perhaps they should do it more often?

I've heard this stuff about Folau and marketing, yeah it's great. But, what happens if he decides to go back to League? All the millions they've spent will be for nothing, their major signing coup going back to rugby? What message will that send to the Sydney public?

I can just see the press conference - "Had a great time playing AFL and made heaps of money but League will always be the better game..."

Oh yeah, great marketing for the AFL. Massive risk they're making with the AFL's money, I hope it works.

Did I not make it clear enough for you that a relatively small investment in Folau (yes, it was small given the monies attributed to marketing campaigns) would have provided a reasonable return on investment for the free publicity by way of topical discussion and news articles in traditional and non-traditional AFL states? Every Tom, Dick and Harry at some stage offered their opinion. That is precisely what the acquisitions of Hunt and Folau were designed to do.

As for the thumpings, I prefer to lay the blame at the feet of those running the Suns and Giants. There's no unwritten rule that states you have to have so many young men running around the field at any given time.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Based on that, every Irishman would be Jim Stynes.

Yep, I realise that; his success is by no means guaranteed, but we have no bigger sample to work from. We do in the case of the Irish imports.

And the bottom line is it's way too early to say. He's played seven games for Chrissake, he's been injured...I'm not passing judgement yet and I think Walls has way jumped the gun.

 

[Demonheart]

Did I not make it clear enough for you that a relatively small investment in Folau (yes, it was small given the monies attributed to marketing campaigns) would have provided a reasonable return on investment for the free publicity by way of topical discussion and news articles in traditional and non-traditional AFL states? Every Tom, Dick and Harry at some stage offered their opinion. That is precisely what the acquisitions of Hunt and Folau were designed to do.

As for the thumpings, I prefer to lay the blame at the feet of those running the Suns and Giants. There's no unwritten rule that states you have to have so many young men running around the field at any given time.

Yes, that relatively small investment could end up providing great returns to league if Folau goes back.

As I said, it was a massive risk which potentially gave only a short term reward, but it also has potential to backfire on the AFL.

My preferanceis for the gamble to pay off, because if it fails then the AFL will have to throw more money at the problem because of how much they've already invested. But having to play someone who clearly is not up solely because of their 'marketing' value is ridiculous and will have long term effects to the team. They would have been better off making the team more competitive right from the start instead of the abortion we now have. The Sydney public will only embrace a successful AFL team, regardless of who runs around in that jumoer, Sydney are proof of this.

 

[ausbacker]

Yes, that relatively small investment could end up providing great returns to league if Folau goes back.

As I said, it was a massive risk which potentially gave only a short term reward, but it also has potential to backfire on the AFL.

My preferanceis for the gamble to pay off, because if it fails then the AFL will have to throw more money at the problem because of how much they've already invested. But having to play someone who clearly is not up solely because of their 'marketing' value is ridiculous and will have long term effects to the team. They would have been better off making the team more competitive right from the start instead of the abortion we now have. The Sydney public will only embrace a successful AFL team, regardless of who runs around in that jumoer, Sydney are proof of this.

I disagree. You can make an argument for either side as I presented earlier. Rugby will say he's come back AFL will say their best and brightest failed. Whichever position one takes, it really doesn't matter. I would prefer that Folau works out simply because he's a physical specimen and I'd be interested to see what he could become.

As for your comments about the quality of team, we are in agreement. There's been no need for the Suns or Giants to lose as heavily or invest in youth as heavily as they have. Ultimately, I would hope it fits into a larger strategy of using the talented youth as trade chips to attract senior talent.

 

[IanW]

As for the thumpings, I prefer to lay the blame at the feet of those running the Suns and Giants. There's no unwritten rule that states you have to have so many young men running around the field at any given time.

You hear this line of argument a lot. Its rubbish.

Regrettably, you need to pay overs to get players to move to expansion teams and probably get belted and definitely not win a flag for 5 years. We paid overs for Scully, Ward and Davis. Reid got paid overs by being offered a list slot. We would have needed to either

1) Take players no other club wanted, or

2) Pay overs for free agents, or

3) Trade a lot of draft picks for non-free-agents and *then* pay them overs.

Any decent player who moved would also want a long-term contract, thus destroying our cap room to re-sign good kids in 2013-14.

Alternatively, GWS and GC could have been given a lot more cap room than existing clubs - not the pissant $1m extra, but a 30-50% loading.

In that case, the whining and bleating of existing clubs could be heard from Noumea.

Instead, both clubs hired a whole bunch of cheap kids, and will try and re-sign the best of them, and the rest of the teams have the hope of enticing the others to their clubs at the end of their first contract as GWS is forced to delist them to get under the list limit and salary cap.

 

[Bob Neil]

lol, so at 1.05 he gets lucky and is somehow involved in a goal, does this suddenly justify his spot in the side?

In the same game he actually clunked a great mark - in the wet - and potted the goal home from 55m with ease. He really did show glimpses of talent in that match against the Crows...not sure what's happened the rest of the year.

 

[Father Jack]

The likes of Walls and Lloyd seem to have an alterior motive for their bagging of Folau, otherwise they'd give him a bit of time. Couldn't believe Lloyd getting stuck into him after his very first game of AFL footy, but I guess as a high profile, high priced recruit he's going to attract this sort of thing. Just seems a bit petty, as he's a bit of an obvious target.

 

[IanW]

In the same game he actually clunked a great mark - in the wet - and potted the goal home from 55m with ease. He really did show glimpses of talent in that match against the Crows...not sure what's happened the rest of the year.

Bob,

There has been very little clean ball going into the GWS' forward line.

Here's tape of that mark and goal. He destroys Talia with burst, the ball is put where he's leading to, he then marks and converts.

 

[RedLegs#5]

Surely give him another year to get used to it all...AFL really is a tough sport to play at a high level. Plus with the money he was paid you'd think he'd be working his ass off and something might eventually click.

However Hunt is really proving himself this year. Can be very impressive.

 

[laminex]

The likes of Walls and Lloyd seem to have an alterior motive for their bagging of Folau, otherwise they'd give him a bit of time. Couldn't believe Lloyd getting stuck into him after his very first game of AFL footy, but I guess as a high profile, high priced recruit he's going to attract this sort of thing. Just seems a bit petty, as he's a bit of an obvious target.

Lloyd to me comes of as stupid so he thinks if he stamps his feet loudly and make a lot of noise it will cover the lack of personalty and make him look smarter.

 

[ausbacker]

You hear this line of argument a lot. Its rubbish.

Regrettably, you need to pay overs to get players to move to expansion teams and probably get belted and definitely not win a flag for 5 years. We paid overs for Scully, Ward and Davis. Reid got paid overs by being offered a list slot. We would have needed to either

1) Take players no other club wanted, or

2) Pay overs for free agents, or

3) Trade a lot of draft picks for non-free-agents and *then* pay them overs.

Any decent player who moved would also want a long-term contract, thus destroying our cap room to re-sign good kids in 2013-14.

Alternatively, GWS and GC could have been given a lot more cap room than existing clubs - not the pissant $1m extra, but a 30-50% loading.

In that case, the whining and bleating of existing clubs could be heard from Noumea.

Instead, both clubs hired a whole bunch of cheap kids, and will try and re-sign the best of them, and the rest of the teams have the hope of enticing the others to their clubs at the end of their first contract as GWS is forced to delist them to get under the list limit and salary cap.

With respect to your opinion (which is well argued) I don't necessarily agree with you IanW in regards to list composition. You can create a strong core of players if 1. you look hard enough for the players and 2. trade assets. Both GWS and GCS were/are in enviable positions given their draft positions. The initial salary cap costs are going to be directed at the senior players to begin with and as time moves, the warped salary structure will correct itself. The main issue I have noticed is GWS/GCS (by and large) appear unwilling to part with draft picks to trade for players. It has and will continue to be an option available to both sides should they choose to use it. Neither really embraced this scenario choosing to accept the learning curve and time development approach.

The problem lies with accepted norms in the AFL not necessarily the Suns and Giants.

 

[Maddhew]

If Penrith Panthers had either cap room or money, that might be possible.

People *do* know Panthers-the-casino-complex doesnt actually give them important amounts of money, right ?

Luke Lewis was granted a release yesterday from a 500k contract, they have room in the cap.

 

[IanW]

Ausbacker,

AFL players are both overwhelmingly on short term, 2-3 year contracts, and dont like being shopped in trades.

Rischitelli is the prime example - he got shopped as part of the Fevola trade, resented that, and then moved in free agency to Gold Coast, leaving his club with no compensation.

If a player becomes disgruntled, they generally only need to play out one more year at their club before
nominating a trading partner.

As an example, West Coast Eagles. I can recall no serious offers by West Coast of established players for GWS draft picks. If you can point me to even BigFooty rumours from the time, I'd be glad to look at them, but teams were apparently not willing to annoy their good players by shopping them to the expansion clubs.

The key wasnt the expansion clubs not willing to trade. It was that even teams in rebuild were unwilling to trade with them.

 

[ausbacker]

Ausbacker,

AFL players are both overwhelmingly on short term, 2-3 year contracts, and dont like being shopped in trades.

Rischitelli is the prime example - he got shopped as part of the Fevola trade, resented that, and then moved in free agency to Gold Coast, leaving his club with no compensation.

If a player becomes disgruntled, they generally only need to play out one more year at their club before
nominating a trading partner.

As an example, West Coast Eagles. I can recall no serious offers by West Coast of established players for GWS draft picks. If you can point me to even BigFooty rumours from the time, I'd be glad to look at them, but teams were apparently not willing to annoy their good players by shopping them to the expansion clubs.

The key wasnt the expansion clubs not willing to trade. It was that even teams in rebuild were unwilling to trade with them.

The onus was not on the established clubs to approach players, the Suns or the Giants Ian, it was on the Suns and Giants. This is where your rationale is flawed.

I've long held the belief that despite the supposed cutthroat nature of the AFL, it is far from it. Maintaining the status quo is accepted practise.

 

[the distributer]

Hunt at least had an understanding of our code, Izzy came in green as grass, probably hadn't even watched a live game before, he was never going to make it, i think both partys have gotton all they're going to get out of this contract, i agree with Walls, time for him to go back to league before he wastes his career.

 

[IanW]

The onus was not on the established clubs to approach players, the Suns or the Giants Ian, it was on the Suns and Giants. This is where your rationale is flawed.

I've long held the belief that despite the supposed cutthroat nature of the AFL, it is far from it. Maintaining the status quo is accepted practise.

Ausbacker,

Think about what you're saying. For example, GWS approach an under-contract player, say 'We'd like you to move to GWS'. He goes 'Sure, pay me $2m over 3 years and Im there'. Club goes 'He'll cost 2 first round picks'. GWS goes 'We like him, but we'll offer a first round pick'. Club goes 'Two or nothing'. GWS goes 'OK, nothing'.

And thats without the vicious retaliation promised by coaches to any player who does announce they are going to an expansion club - in the case I've outlined, whats the odds on the player being banished to the twos for disloyalty ?

Now, does the player go public and demand the trade ? Think about what that does to team harmony. Does the players manager, or the club, ever leak anything ? Of course they do ! And in both directions - 'Club rebuffs GWS attempt to entice under-contract player`.

Finally, we did sound a lot of very good players out. Review, for example, a number of fine threads on the Collingwood board in 2011.

Bluntly, they didnt want to sign with us.

So we paid overs for Tom Scully, Phil Davis, Callan Ward and Rhys Palmer.

 

[IanW]

Hunt at least had an understanding of our code, Izzy came in green as grass, probably hadn't even watched a live game before, he was never going to make it, i think both partys have gotton all they're going to get out of this contract, i agree with Walls, time for him to go back to league before he wastes his career.

The distributor,

Have you seen any of the early tape of campaigner play ? "Green as grass" is putting it nicely.

 

[brett15]

Brett15,

Hunt looked awful a lot of the time last year, and his odd good play was written off as "lucky" by flogs like Donakebab.

He's a KPF in his first year in the big time. He's tracking along just fine.

Hunt looked lost but was never as badly out of sorts as Izzy looks, and I was also one of Karmichael's advocates last year particularly when he was down.

Izzy may yet still make it, but it just shows that AFL may not be for everyone, and it definately isn't a game code hoppers can just step into and instantly thrive. Hypothetically, I'd also expect Slater or Cronk to struggle for a few years before coming on even better then either Izzy or Hunt.

 

[Gaben]

I realise any thread with GWS *and* Izzy in it is two loads of lies, bullshit and misinformation ... but no his pay isnt under the cap.

Watch this tape. Nice creation of space, good mark and the correct option and a beautifully weighted kick. Then freeze the tape at 1.05. do a jumper count and see what happens next.

You can't be serious? "Nice creation of space" - you mean, nice lagging behind your opponent who was sprinting back to the dangerous area. Folau fell off the back and got gifted the ball for the most rudimentary chest mark which is somehow 'nice' just because it was Folau and he didn't manage to spill it. Tops it all off with a dinky little chip and hope on the back foot that only just managed not to be touched by the man on the mark and fortuitously got over the head of a defender that misread the ball.

I don't even know what we are meant to be looking at at 1.05. The part where the Adelaide player hands him the ball and he almost gives it straight back?

Speaking of bullshit and misinformation....

 

[IanW]

Nope, Gaben, its the bit where he stops in space, at the true CHF position, letting his man overrun it to go somewhere else. He then signals the short option and makes the right call by taking the kick quickly.

At 1.05, note how the man who coughs it up is being protected by a blocker trying to control space and protect his man. It doesnt work. Folau spots up the forward option and promotes the footy.

But yeah, haters are going to hate.